Are God’s Blessings Permanently Tied to Lineage—or Conditional on Obedience?

[mms20102]

Hello everyone,


I’d like to explore a theme that appears repeatedly in both the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament, yet rarely gets discussed head-on:

Does God’s blessing (or covenant) stay with a people forever simply because of their ancestry,
or does it hinge on their continued obedience to Him?


Why I think the question matters

• Justice & mercy. If God is perfectly just, it seems only fair that a rebellious nation could forfeit special privileges, while an obedient nation—whatever its pedigree—could be granted favor.

• Prophetic passages. Several texts appear to warn ancient Israel that disobedience would lead to blessings being removed or transferred.

• Continuity vs. continuity-plus-change. Christians, Jews, and Muslims each affirm God’s fidelity, yet differ on how He continues His plan when humans fail.

Relevant scriptures (in bite-sized form)

Blessing initially promised to Abraham’s two sons Genesis 17 : 20 (Ishmael); Genesis 17 : 21 (Isaac)
Blessing contingent on obedience Deuteronomy 28 : 1–2 / 15; Jeremiah 7 : 3–7
Warning of transfer Matthew 21 : 43

kingdom… taken from you and given to a nation producing its fruits

One God over all peoples Zechariah 14 : 9; Mark 12 : 29

The Lord our God is One Lord

Feel free to add other verses—these are just conversation starters.



Lastly three honest questions to the forum

1. Does Scripture anywhere say that Abraham’s non-Isaac line (e.g., through Ishmael) lost its blessing, or are we merely assuming so?
2. When Jesus speaks of the kingdom being “taken… and given to another nation,” do you read that as metaphorical, eschatological, or potentially literal?
3. If blessings are conditional, what criteria—in your view—would mark a people today as legitimate heirs of God’s covenant?



Ground rules for the thread

- Please keep replies focused on —texts and principles—, not personal labels.
- I’m genuinely interested in everyone’s viewpoint—Jewish, Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, Muslim, or skeptic.
- One point at a time keeps the conversation clear for readers.

Looking forward to learning from you all!

[A Freeman]

[Replying to mms20102 in post #9]

mms20102: You say only 144,000 ethnic Israelites will be redeemed and everyone else is fire-bound.

AF: Not true. Never has any claim been personally made about the "ethnicity" of the 144,000. Only that, as Israelites, they will all be keeping the Covenant to obey God's Law/Commandments, and DO His Will.

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mms20102: That collapses under its own texts.

1. Revelation refutes you in the very next breath.

AF: No, it doesn't.

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mms20102: The same vision that counts 144 000 (Rev 7 :4-8) immediately shows “a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, tribe, people and tongue” standing before God (Rev 7 :9).
If only literal Israelites are saved, who are this countless, multi-ethnic crowd in white robes?

AF: The “a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, tribe, people and tongue” IS the 144,000 described in the preceding verses, which is exactly why John was TOLD the number of the multitude he was being shown in verse 7:4.

This FACT is then confirmed in Revelation 14:1-4, which again tells us that ONLY 144,000 -- Who are WITH Christ (the Lamb) will be redeemed from the Earth. And that no one else can learn to sing the "New Song" (the "Song of Moses" AND the "Song of the Lamb", which are in perfect harmony IF correctly understood (Christ was sent to confirm The Law - Matt. 5:17-19; Sura 61:6-7), except for the 144,000 who are redeemed.

Revelation 15:3 And they sing the "Song of Moses" (Old Covenant/Testament - Deut. 31) the servant of God, AND the "Song of the Lamb" (New Covenant/Testament), saying, Great and marvellous [are] Thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true [are] Thy Ways, Thou King of the holy people.

Before you're tempted to claim that it's easy to count a multitude only numbering 144,000, please consider this:

In the U.S. there are several NCAA Division 1 football stadiums that can seat over 100,000. If you've ever been inside of one, you would very quickly see that regardless of your vantage point, it's impossible for any one individual to sit there and count everyone else in the stadium.

Even if everyone sat down and was perfectly still, many of the people would be obscured from view. So, using ticket sales, scanners and turnstiles, an "official" attendance count is usually calculated and announced during the second-half of the game, over the loudspeakers. In other words, the official attendance number for the day is HEARD by those in attendance, just as John HEARD the number of them that were sealed.

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mms20102: 2. Your list of tribes isn’t even the original twelve.
Dan is missing, Levi is added, Joseph replaces Ephraim—clear signs the number is symbolic, not a racial census.

AF: No, the number isn't symbolic; it is very obviously literal, as it's repeated several times. And it's not "my" list; it's the prophetic list from Christ's Revelation to John. Only those who don't believe the Prophet would claim the list is "symbolic".

While it is true that Dan is not listed among the 12 tribes, there are at least three good reasons why that is, including:

1) because Dan has historically been easily influenced by Satan, causing others to fall backwards (spiritually);

Genesis 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent's trail, an adder (a venomous serpent) in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.

2) because the Danite judges rejected Christ during His Second Coming, for sending His film "7/7 Ripple Effect" as an amicus curiae brief in the case of the 7/7 alleged "helpers" (re: the 7/7/2005 London bombings, which was an inside government job), and extradited Him to England where He was eventually exonerated; and

3) because the Danites were the judges (Gen. 30:6), and there will be no need for them during the 1000 year-reign of Christ, as Father has committed all Judgement to Christ:

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son (Enoch 58:1; 60:11; 68:39):

Further, Levi wasn't added; Levi is the third son of Jacob/Israel (Gen. 29:34).

And Joseph didn't replace Ephraim, both Ephraim and Manasseh are the sons of Joseph, both of which Israel blessed and put his name upon them (Ephraim - the English and Manasseh - the Anglo-Saxon Americans - Gen. 48:16-19).

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mms20102: 3. Scripture itself grafts outsiders into the covenant.

Exodus 12 :48-49 – the foreigner may eat Passover “one law for native and stranger.”

Isaiah 56 :6-7 – “the foreigner who binds himself to YHWH… I will bring to My holy mountain.”

Romans 11 :17 – Gentiles are “grafted into Israel’s olive tree.”

Galatians 3 :29 – “If you belong to Christ, you are Abraham’s seed, heirs according to the promise.”

AF: Of course. Nothing has ever been personally suggested to the contrary. Joseph's wife (Asenath) was an Egyptian. Ruth was a Moabite princess, who married Boaz and from whom king David was descended. The Davidic line from which Jesus was born.

But you seem to be overlooking the FACT that the outsiders (foreigners) will no longer be foreigners after they are grafted INTO Israel; they will become Israelites. And the ONLY Way to become and remain an Israelite is to keep the Covenants, i.e. keep God's Law (the Old Covenant/Testament) and put the teachings of Christ, as recorded in the Gospel accounts (New Covenant/Testament) into action.

This is why there won't be one single "Jew", nor "Christian" nor "Muslim", nor anyone from ANY organized religion among the 144,000 ISRAELITES that are redeemed from the Earth.

One cannot be a member of ANY "sect" (organized religion) and serve God. The two are mutually exclusive (Sura 6:159).

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mms20102: 4. Even before Israel existed, God accepted non-Israelite righteous men—Job, Melchizedek, Jethro.
Your position would consign them to Hell solely for lacking the right ancestors—an idea the Bible never entertains.

AF: Melchizedek was Christ during a previous incarnation.

Genesis 14:18-20
14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem (Peace) brought forth bread and wine: and he [was] the priest of the Most High God.
14:19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed [be] Abram (who was later named Abraham) by the Most High God, possessor of heaven and earth:
14:20 And blessed be the Most High God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

King of kings' Bible - John 8:47-49 (KJV John 8:56-58)
8:47 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad.
8:48 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet FIFTY years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
8:49 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was born, I am ([ur=ch. 17:5).

And neither Job nor Jethro, nor anyone else except for Christ (Whom God sent from heaven) over the past 6000 years, have gone to heaven.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of Man which is from heaven.

FACT: We are all in hell (planet Earth), and -- with the exception of Enoch (who was translated - Gen. 5:23-24; Heb. 11:5; Sura 19:56-57), have been here for thousands of years in numerous incarnations. And we are all still here, where we are rapidly running out of time to get it right, or find ourselves in The Fire.

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mms20102: 5. Q 2 :124 seals the principle:
“My covenant does not reach the wrong-doers.”
Obedience, not DNA, is the gate.

AF: Understood and agreed. You cannot be a TRUE Israelite and not keep the Covenants.

[1213]

...
A. Which “nation producing its fruits” did Jesus have in mind?
Some say it was the early, mostly-Gentile Church; others suggest it could be any community that lives out God’s justice in each generation. I’d be interested in your take.

B. Defining the acceptance criteria
If the covenant is “offered for all,” what concrete markers show someone has actually embraced it?

Faith in God?

Obedience to the moral core of the Law (love of God / neighbour)?

Recognition of Jesus’ teaching and example?...

C. How do passages like Isaiah 19 :24-25 fit?
That prophecy singles out Egypt and Assyria alongside Israel as blessed together in the end. Does that confirm a multi-ethnic covenant family?
...

A. I don't think it is said specifically what nation. I think it is only saying that the nation that produces the fruits. And perhaps it can mean any people who do so.

B. I think, if person has received the covenant, he lives by it, does what the covenant expects. I think these following scriptures tells what the new covenant means, the law is written into persons heart, or in other words, the law is put in persons mind.

For finding fault with them, he said, "Behold, the days come," says the Lord, "That I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, In the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; For they didn't continue in my covenant, And I disregarded them," says the Lord. "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. After those days," says the Lord; "I will put my laws into their mind, I will also write them on their heart. I will be to them a God, And they will be to me a people. They will not teach every man his fellow citizen,{TR reads "neighbor" instead of "fellow citizen"} Every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' For all will know me, From the least of them to the great-est of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness. I will remember their sins and lawless deeds no more."
Heb. 8:8-12 (Jer. 31:31-34)
Yahweh your God will circumcise your heart, and the heart of your seed, to love Yahweh your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, that you may live. Yahweh your God will put all these curses on your enemies, and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. You shall return and obey the voice of Yahweh, and do all his commandments which I command you this day. Yahweh your God will make you plenteous in all the work of your hand, in the fruit of your body, and in the fruit of your cattle, and in the fruit of your ground, for good: for Yahweh will again rejoice over you for good, as he rejoiced over your fathers;
Deut. 30:6-9

C. I think Isaiah 19 :24-25 is not speaking about covenant. But it shows good things can come also to other nations than Israel.

[mms20102]

Thanks 1213 for your sincere engagement٫ your clarity and tone are genuinely refreshing. Here are a few reflections on your thoughtful points:

A.
I agree, it’s telling that Jesus didn’t name the “other nation” in Matthew 21:43. That invites reflection rather than restriction. Your insight that it could mean any people who produce the fruits, is a key. This resonates deeply with the Torah and the Prophets: God’s favor rests not on ancestry, but on obedience. Jesus reinforces this, echoing what’s long been true—righteousness is what preserves the covenant, not merely lineage.

B.
You quoted Hebrews 8 beautifully. This “new covenant” centers on the internalization of God’s law—“written on their hearts.” That same spirit appears in Deuteronomy 30, as you noted: “God will circumcise your heart…”
What’s striking is that this applies not just to Israel, but also to those who join them in faith and action. As Deut. 29:13–14 says, “Not with you alone do I make this covenant... but with whoever is not here today as well.” The invitation is clearly open.

C.
True—Isaiah 19:24–25 may not speak explicitly of a covenant, but it says something just as profound. Egypt and Assyria—longtime adversaries of Israel—are described as “My people” and “the work of My hands.” That’s powerful. It reinforces a consistent theme: God’s redemptive plan reaches all who turn toward Him in sincerity and righteousness.

So in summary:
You’re absolutely right—the new covenant is inward, spiritual, and based on fruit, not blood. That opens the door for all peoples, not by canceling Israel’s mission, but by fulfilling it.

Now while the Bible may not use the exact phrase “Gentiles will have a prophet,” several passages imply that divine guidance would extend to them through a chosen messenger and will be taken from jews. These include:

1. Isaiah 42:6 – “A light to the nations.”


2. Deuteronomy 18:18 – A prophet like Moses sent to “them.”


3. Matthew 21:43 – The kingdom given to “a nation producing its fruits.”


4. John 14:16–17 – The coming of “another Comforter.”


5. John 16:7 – “It is better that I go…”


6. John 16:13 – “He will guide you into all truth.”



Shall we open a new thread to explore who this prophetic figure could be, and how the covenant may have extended through him, particularly in light of the idea that the covenant with Ishmael was never revoked, only delayed in its fulfillment?

[mms20102]

[Replying to A Freeman in post #11]

AF, many of your claims rely heavily on personal interpretation rather than explicit scriptural backing. In several cases, you appear to deny or contradict earlier assertions you've made—either unintentionally or assuming most readers won’t go through your lengthy posts.

For the sake of clarity and productive discussion, could you please cite original, verifiable sources—not doctrinal websites or reinterpretations—for the following claims:

That Job and other righteous non-Israelite figures are destined for hell:

"Anyone who isn't part of or grafted into true Israel on the Last Day... will find themselves in The Fire. Either we learn The Way home or we will face The Fire."

That Melchizedek was Christ in a previous incarnation

That the British throne is the Davidic throne of Israel

That the 144,000 refer exclusively to Israelites by ethnicity or lineage, rather than spiritual obedience—and that they are separate from the “great multitude”

"Everyone else will go into The Fire, exactly as it warns us repeatedly..."

That no Muslim, Christian, or Jew belonging to any faith group can be among the redeemed

That all others will enter “The Fire”—without exception—based on affiliation alone, not sincere faithfulness

That earth is hell.

Without clear scriptural evidence from divine revelation—not just personal frameworks or extended commentary—these conclusions remain subjective and lack authority.

Would you agree that this absence of direct textual support undermines the objectivity of your argument? And wouldn’t declaring eternal judgments—particularly on figures like Job—without divine warrant risk going beyond what God Himself has revealed?

[1213]

...
Now while the Bible may not use the exact phrase “Gentiles will have a prophet,” several passages imply that divine guidance would extend to them through a chosen messenger and will be taken from jews. These include:
1. Isaiah 42:6 – “A light to the nations.”
2. Deuteronomy 18:18 – A prophet like Moses sent to “them.”
3. Matthew 21:43 – The kingdom given to “a nation producing its fruits.”
4. John 14:16–17 – The coming of “another Comforter.”
5. John 16:7 – “It is better that I go…”
6. John 16:13 – “He will guide you into all truth.”

Shall we open a new thread to explore who this prophetic figure could be, and how the covenant may have extended through him, particularly in light of the idea that the covenant with Ishmael was never revoked, only delayed in its fulfillment?

Thanks mms20102. I believe the prophet like Moses is Jesus, because both were a middle man in making a covenant between humans and God. And the guide to all truth is the Holy Spirit:

However when he, the Spirit of truth, has come, he will guide you into all truth, for he will not speak from himself; but what-ever he hears, he will speak. He will declare to you things that are coming.
John 16:13

Also, I think it is good to notice, God does not rejected Israel or Jews entirely, He keeps the promises He has made.

Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them; for I am Yahweh their God; but I will for their sake remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God. I am Yahweh.
Lev. 26:44-45

But, I would like to know what do you mean with the prophetic figure? And what do you think the covenant with Ishmael means?

[mms20102]

[Replying to 1213 in post #0]

Thank you, 1213. I truly appreciate your sincerity and thoughtful response.

For this thread I think we can continue with

Did the Jews uphold the covenant or reject it?

And have Christians truly kept that covenant in spirit and in practice?

For the key side-topics, each worthy of deeper exploration, with meaningful insights on both sides. I’m encouraged that we both appear to seek truth above all else. May God guide us both to what is right and let truth be our only desire.

The first topic might be:

Is Jesus truly the Prophet like Moses, do all the prophetic features align?

Who is the Comforter / Spirit of Truth, Holy Spirit or a future prophet?

And what exactly did God mean by His covenant with Ishmael, and was it fulfilled?


Which way do you prefer to continue with?

[A Freeman]

[Replying to mms20102 in post #14]

mms20102: AF, many of your claims rely heavily on personal interpretation rather than explicit scriptural backing. In several cases, you appear to deny or contradict earlier assertions you've made—either unintentionally or assuming most readers won’t go through your lengthy posts.

AF: Why do you feel the need to lie about others? Are you viewpoints so feeble you feel you need to misrepresent what others have actually said in a vain effort to try to elevate your particular religious superstitions and traditions?

Anyone who takes the time to read the truth that has been personally posted will immediately see that it is well documented with SCRIPTURAL CITATIONS and not with man-made doctrines.

It's actually you that like to cite doctrine and traditions, e.g. from the Hadith, which is a completely fabricated volume written hundreds of years after the alleged death of Muhammad, as the advertising brochure for "Islamic" doctrine, and which has been condemned in the Koran/Quran itself (Sura 5:4).

There's a word for people that falsely accuse others of doing what they themselves are doing: HYPOCRITE.

There are at least 95 scriptural mark identifying who the true people Israel are, so that the genuine truth-seekers of this world can easily see that the prophecies and the UNCONDITIONAL promises made to Abraham, and to Abraham's son Isaac, and to Abraham's grandson Jacob/Israel and to the descendants of the Israel's 12 sons, HAVE BEEN FULFILLED BY OUR CREATOR.

The Scriptural Marks of True Israel

Does this mean all of these Souls will be among those who are redeemed from the Earth? No. The prophecies make it crystal clear that there will only be a REMNANT redeemed. Scripture also makes it crystal clear that anyone who learns to crucify the "self" will be grafted into that BELIEVING REMNANT THAT KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD (HIS LAW - found ONLY in the first five books of the Bible; namely: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy).

Crucify the "self" DAILY: see: Matt. 10:38; Matt. 16:24-26; Mark 8:34; Luke 9:23; Luke 14:26-27; Thomas 6:9; Gal. 2:20; Sura 6:162; Sura 92:18-21.

A few of the many references to only a BELIEVING REMNANT of Israel being redeemed (aka the "Elect"; the 144,000):

Isaiah 10:20-22
10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the REMNANT of Israel, and such as are escaped of the House of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the "I AM", the Holy One of Israel, in Truth.
10:21 The remnant shall return, [even] the REMNANT of Jacob, unto the mighty God.
10:22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, [only] a REMNANT of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

Jeremiah 23:3 And I will gather the REMNANT of My flock out of all countries where I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.

Romans 9:26-27
9:26 And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not My people; there shall they be called the children of the Living God (the Valley of Jezreel).
9:27 Isaiah also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a REMNANT shall be saved:

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon (Lucifer/Satan/Iblis) was wroth with the woman (Israel), and went to make war with the REMNANT of her seed, which KEEP the Commandments of God, and have the Testimony of Christ Jesus (the Bible).

Sura 38:45-47
38:45. And commemorate Our Servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, possessors of Power and Vision.
38:46. Verily We did choose THEM for a SPECIAL (purpose)- proclaiming the Message of the Hereafter.
38:47. They were, in Our sight, truly, of the company of the Elect and the Good.


The believing remnant will be those from every nation -- including those grafted into Israel -- but they will ALL be those which have come out of their organized religions/sects, etc. and keep The Law/Commandments of God.

Revelation 18:4-5
18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, COME OUT of her, MY people, that ye take not part in her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues (punishment).
18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her inequities.

[A Freeman]

Concerning the fact that this -- planet Earth -- is hell (and a temporary prison reform school):

It's truly a testament to how spiritually blind people can actually be for someone to even question that this place (planet Earth) is hell.

We live in a world FULL OF SINNERS/LAW-BREAKERS/CRIMINALS (Ps. 53:1-3; Rom. 3:10-12; 1 John 3:4). A place where people lie, cheat and steal on a daily basis; where women are raped, children molested, where theft has been “legalized” in the form of taxes and license fees, and where murder has been “legalized” in the form of war and vaccines/pharmacy.

Just look at what is going on in the world right now, with sexual depravity not just being tolerated, or even praised, but instead being unlawfully mandated by unlawful legislation. The insanity is so acute we no longer seem to know that there are only two genders: male and female (Gen. 1:27), or that ALL man-made chemicals/pharmaceuticals are actually poisons (Gal. 5:19-21). People are actually lined up, and are still lining up to be lethally injected out of nothing more than fear for their pathetic human existence (Matt. 10:28).

Nowhere else, in the entire universe, is there such a place. How obvious does it need to be that the Earth is a maximum-security prison reform school for the criminally insane, aka hell?

Here is why we were cast out of heaven with Lucifer/Satan/Iblis TO THE EARTH, aka hell:

Revelation 12:7-9
12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon (Lucifer); and the dragon fought and his angels,
12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: HE WAS CAST OUT TO THE EARTH, and his angels (you - Luke 9:55) were cast out with him (Matthew 25:41).

From the Koran/Quran, which explains all of us, except Lucifer/Satan/Iblis, submitted to human limitations (being incarnated inside of a human):

Sura 7:11-18
7:11. It is We Who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the (fallen) angels submit to Adam, and you submitted (Luke 9:55); not so Iblis (Lucifer); he refused to be of you who submitted.
7:12. ("I AM") said: "What prevented thee from submitting when I commanded thee?" He said: "I am better than he: Thou didst create me from fire (energy), and him from clay."
7:13. ("I AM") said: "Get thee down from this: it is not for thee to be arrogant here: get out, for thou art of the meanest (of creatures)."
7:14. He said: "Give me respite till The Day they are raised up."
7:15. ("I AM") said: "Be thou among those who have respite."
7:16. He said: "Because thou hast thrown me out of The Way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on Thy Straight Way:
7:17. Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left: nor wilt Thou find, in MOST of them, gratitude (for Thy mercies)."
7:18. ("I AM") said: "Get out from this, disgraced and expelled. If any of them follow thee,- Hell-Fire will I fill with you all (Matt. 8:22).

Sura 15:26-43
15:26. We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape;
15:27. And the Being (of light) race, We had created before, from the fire of a scorching wind.
15:28. Behold! Thy Lord said to the (fallen) angels: "I am about to create man, from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape;
15:29. When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down into submission inside him."
15:30. So the (fallen) angels submitted themselves (Luke 9:55), all of them together:
15:31. Except Iblis (Lucifer): he refused to be among those who submitted themselves (to human limitations).
15:32. ("I AM") said: "O Lucifer! What is your reason for not being among those who submitted themselves?"
15:33. (Lucifer) said: "I am not one to submit myself to man, whom Thou didst create from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape."
15:34. ("I AM") said: "Then get thee out from here; for thou art rejected, accursed.
15:35. And the Curse shall be on thee till The Day of Judgment."
15:36. (Lucifer) said: "O my Lord! give me then respite till The Day the (dead) are raised."
15:37. ("I AM") said: "Respite is granted thee-
15:38. Till the Day of the Time appointed."
15:39. (Lucifer) said: "O my Lord! Because Thou hast put me in the wrong, I will make (wrong) fair-seeming to them on the Earth, and I will put them ALL in the wrong (Isaiah 5:20-21),-
15:40. Except Thy servants among them, sincere and purified (by Thy Grace)."
15:41. ("I AM") said: "This (way of My sincere servants) is indeed The Way that leads straight to Me (John 11:25).
15:42. For over My servants no authority shalt thou have, except such as put themselves in the wrong by following thee."
15:43. And verily, Hell-Fire is the promised abode for them all (Matt. 8:22)!

Sura 17:61-65
17:61. Behold! We said to the (fallen) angels: "Submit unto Adam (man)": you submitted (Luke 9:55) except Iblis (Lucifer): he said, "Shall I submit to one whom Thou didst create from clay?"
17:62. He said: "Seest Thou? This is the one (Adamic man) whom Thou hast honoured above me! If Thou wilt but respite me to The Day of Judgment, I will surely bring his descendants under my sway (Isa. 14:12-14) - all but a few (Rev. 14:3)!"
17:63. ("I AM") said: "Go thy way if any of them follow thee, verily Hell-Fire will be the recompense of you (all)(Isa. 14:15)- an ample recompense (Matt. 8:22).
17:64. Lead to destruction those whom thou canst among them, with thy (seductive) voice; make assaults on them with thy cavalry and thy infantry; mutually share with them wealth and children; and make promises to them." But Satan promises you nothing but deceit.
17:65. "As for My servants, no authority shalt thou have over them:" enough is thy Lord for a Disposer of affairs (John 11:25).

Confirmation from Christ that Lucifer/Satan/Iblis, "the prince of this world", is temporarily ruling the world through his worldly institutions (e.g. church and state, the courts and the rest of the corporate fictions) may also be found in John 12:31; 14:30 and 16:11.

More direct references in the following post...

[A Freeman]

Job 22:6 THE SORROWS OF HELL COMPASSED ME ABOUT; the snares of death prevented me;

Psalm 16:10 FOR THOU WILT NOT LEAVE MY SOUL IN HELL (planet Earth); neither wilt Thou suffer Thine Holy One to see corruption.

Psalm 18:5 THE SORROWS OF HELL COMPASSED ME ABOUT: the snares of death prevented me.

Psalm 116:3 The sorrows of death compassed me, and THE PAINS OF HELL GOT HOLD UPON ME: I found trouble and sorrow.

Psalm 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, Thou [art] there: IF I MAKE MY BED IN HELL, behold, Thou [art there].

Proverbs 15:24 The Way of Life [is] above to the wise (Matt. 6:33), THAT HE MAY DEPART FROM HELL BENEATH.

Proverbs 27:20 Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.

Isaiah 14:9 HELL from beneath is moved for thee to meet [thee] at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, [even] all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

Isaiah 14:12-15
14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the Morning (Star)! [How] art thou cut down TO THE EARTH, which didst weaken the nations!
14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the North:
14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like (take the Place of) The Most High.
14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down TO HELL, to the sides of the pit.

Ezekiel 31:15-17
31:15 Thus saith the Lord "I AM"; In the day when he went down to the grave I caused a mourning: I covered the deep for him, and I restrained the floods thereof, and the great waters were stayed: and I caused Lebanon to mourn for him, and all the trees of the field fainted for him.
31:16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall (Lucifer/Satan/the red dragon/serpent/devil, etc.), when I CAST HIM DOWN TO HELL with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.

Acts 2:27-31
2:27 Because THOU WILT NOT LEAVE MY SOUL IN HELL, neither wilt Thou suffer Thine Holy One to see corruption.
2:28 Thou hast made known to me The Ways of Life; Thou shalt make me full of joy with Thy countenance.
2:29 Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
2:30 Therefore being a Prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
2:31 He seeing this before spoke of the Resurrection of Christ, THAT HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption.

This should be enough for any believing individual to understand that we are in hell (planet Earth) where Lucifer/Satan/iblis is temporarily running things and tempting us with pleasures and treasures of the flesh. The flames (Hell-Fire, the Lake of Fire, The Fire) are reserved for the Last Day, for Satan and most of mankind.

[A Freeman]

Proof that Job, and all of the Prophets -- except for Elijah (a previous incarnation of Christ) and Enoch (who was "translated) are still here in hell with the rest of us, and that no one has been "saved" by ANY organized religion/sect/cult, etc.:

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of Man which is from heaven.