The Double Dichotomy Proof of God

[John J. Bannan]

THE DOUBLE DICHOTOMY PROOF OF GOD


1) A metaphysical dichotomy between the set of all possible all inclusive states of existence and no states of existence proves that no states of existence cannot be the case, because our universe is real.

2) A metaphysical dichotomy between the set of all possible all inclusive states of existence that can become real and the set of all possible all inclusive states of existence that cannot become real being those possible all inclusive states of existence that contain two logically possible but contradictory states proves that the set of all possible all inclusive states of existence that cannot become real cannot be the case, because our universe is real.

3) Because our universe had a beginning and does not need to be real, and because something must be real without our universe being real due to the fact that no states of existence cannot be real, then there must be something real without our universe being real proving that all inclusive states of existence that can become real must be possible in reality.

4) Because the set of all possible all inclusive states of existence that can become real is infinite because one can imagine any given universe with the addition of just one more thing ad infinitum, then there cannot be a probability for any given universe because the set is infinite.

5) But because the universe is real, then there must be something real which determines what becomes real among the infinite set of all possible all inclusive states of existence where said determination is not based on probability or random chance.

6) Because something can be real and our universe not be real, then there must be a power to create the real such as our universe, and as there is a power to create the real, then there must be a power to determine what is real based on an order of preference.

7) Because the set of all possible all inclusive states of existence that can become real is not inherently ordered, and because it is possible to determine based on preference which possible all inclusive states of existence come into reality, then there must be a real eternal constraint that determines through will and intellect to allow any or all of these possible all inclusive states of existence to become real.

8) Because the actualization of any or all possible all inclusive states of existence that can become real requires the constraint to actualize them, then the constraint cannot be made and therefore must be infinite pure act without moving parts.

9) Said constraint must have power over all possible all inclusive states of existence that can become real being omnipotent and omnipresent.

10) Said constraint must have knowledge of all possible all inclusive states of existence that can become real being omniscient.

11) Because the mind of the constraint is omnipresent and hence within all of us, our minds are contained within the mind of the constraint which calls all of us to be Sons of the constraint.

12) Hence, a single being exists who is eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, is not made, and has a will and intellect and we call this being God.

[John J. Bannan]

[Replying to post 115 by Zzyzx]

Going about life's business ignorant of the prospect of eternal life in Heaven is a position of cognitive dissonance. You claim meaning in life, but without eternal life, there is no meaning in life. From your perspective, you will die and never remember a thing about any of your choices and actions. Consequently, under your philosophy, nothing you do matters in the least bit - and yet, you irrationally insist that it does.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 117:

...
You claim meaning in life, but without eternal life, there is no meaning in life.

What a sad state of affairs.

I find much meaning in my life, regardless of your inability to show there's an afterlife.

I find meaning in today, not in some unprovable "tomorrow" you can't show anyone'll get to.

...
Consequently, under your philosophy, nothing you do matters in the least bit - and yet, you irrationally insist that it does.

Sure it does. Getting to see the youngn's grow up, watching through their eyes as they do all the aweing and learning about this wonderful planet. That right there matters to me, 'fore it'll sure chap my sitter if anyone tries to interfere with 'em a-doin' it.


How does that change if we can show there actually is an afterlife?

For me, it doesn't, 'cause like I said, I live for today, not the afterlife you can't show to exist.

[Zzyzx]

.

Going about life's business ignorant of the prospect of eternal life in Heaven is a position of cognitive dissonance.

Correction: cognitive dissonance is the mental stress or discomfort experienced by an individual who holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values at the same time, or is confronted by new information that conflicts with existing beliefs, ideas, or values

When one understands the meaning of the term they realize that when one does NOT hold contradictory beliefs, as between a real world and an imaginary world, they are not in a state of cognitive dissonance.

Further, if one is "ignorant of the prospect of eternal life" as you propose, there is no conflict.

Further, the "prospect of eternal life" is an OPINION held by some that has not been shown to be anything more than the product of human imagination. There is no assurance that any such thing exists.

Further, no new evidence has been presented favoring any of the thousands of proposed "gods" or any associated proposed "afterlife."

Condolences to those who have been convinced that their life has meaning only with the assumption of an "afterlife."

BTW, using big words in debate without apparently understanding their meaning is not impressive or convincing.

You claim meaning in life, but without eternal life, there is no meaning in life.

Correction: In your OPINION life has no meaning "without eternal life." That may apply to those who believe in a proposed "afterlife", but does not apply to those who do not accept that unverified proposal.

From your perspective, you will die and never remember a thing about any of your choices and actions.

Agreed. Can you demonstrate that after death a person does retain a memory of their choices and actions (with evidence more substantial than opinion, conjecture, myth, legend and unverifiable ancient texts)?

Those who have been taught or indoctrinated to believe in an "afterlife" may THINK there is memory after death, but that is just their opinion. There is no assurance they are correct outside their own mind and imagination; however, many attempt to demean those who do not share their imagined conditions.

Consequently, under your philosophy, nothing you do matters in the least bit - and yet, you irrationally insist that it does.

Correction: Exactly the opposite is true in my case and under my "philosophy." I maintain that every decision and action I make DOES matter in my life and perhaps the lives of others and perhaps in society and the environment. I have no need to imagine "gods" or "afterlife" to give my life meaning – but leave that to religionists to apply to their life, not mine.

Other than multiple errors, assumptions and misconceptions, thanks for the reply.

[John J. Bannan]

[Replying to post 118 by JoeyKnothead]

I can only point out the obvious to you. When you are dead, you won't remember a thing about your kids. Sad, but true nonetheless. Without eternal life, nothing you do matters at all. You can't even enjoy the prospect of being remembered, because you won't remember a damn thing when you're dead.

[John J. Bannan]

[Replying to post 119 by Zzyzx]

But you do suffer from cognitive dissonance. You hold two contradictory beliefs. You believe life has meaning. You do not believe in an afterlife. And as I pointed out to you, life can have no meaning without an afterlife. You will be as dead as a door nail with no recollection whatsoever of any good thing or evil thing you ever did, and you will stay in your dead state for perhaps eternity. You have no choice but to accept the absolute fact that life is meaningless without eternal life.

[Jashwell]

[Replying to post 119 by Zzyzx] And as I pointed out to you, life can have no meaning without an afterlife.

You mean as you claimed, with little to no evidence, merely your own inability to comprehend the idea of meaning without an afterlife.

You will be as dead as a door nail with no recollection whatsoever of any good thing or evil thing you ever did, and you will stay in your dead state for perhaps eternity.

yes

You have no choice but to accept the absolute fact that life is meaningless without eternal life.

I was expecting that by this point there'd be some kind of argument about how you need an afterlife for meaning.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 121:

I can only point out the obvious to you.

You seem quite adept at the pointing out of it, while oblivious to it. A remarkable ability, I must say.

Case in point...

When you are dead, you won't remember a thing about your kids.

While I can rationally conclude they'll remember me.

Sad, but true nonetheless.

Emotional notions are intricately tied to the god concept. I propose it's because where folks find 'em something upsetting, there's some comfort in the belief of some God being up there, and how proud is it he offers an afterlife for those that run out of the nowlife.

Without eternal life, nothing you do matters at all.

Sure it does.

I love me some biscuits, in the here and now.

When the old lady sets to make some in the here and now, what she does affects me in profound and deeply satisfying ways.

Her death would greatly impact my here and now. 'Cause it is, I can't cook me no biscuits that ain't also considered deadly weapons in fourteen territories and states. Heck, I ain't even allowed to tote me no flour in most 'em. That's my biscuits. That's my burden.


This "afterlife" you propose is best understood as the wants and wishes of those who have some upset about dying. It's seen in many cultures, and is not bound to even religious belief (where even I sure wish there was one).


You've got the asserting a claim down. Down good.

What you ain't got is any means by which we can confirm there it sits.

Other'n to declare - in your religious arrogance - that nothing I do can have meaning unless you say it does.

But ya know what, ya can't do anything other'n assert. (I grant you base your claim on notions clearly within the rules of the site)

You can't even enjoy the prospect of being remembered, because you won't remember a damn thing when you're dead.

See above. You've been repeatedly told how valuable life in the here and now can be.

I absolutely reject your arrogant, dooficitic claim that I can't enjoy the prospect of being remembered in the here and now, when the here and now is all that can be shown to exist.


I live my life in the knowledge that my actions and such affect those around me in the here and now. I live in the hope that those I've loved remember me fondly, only without the smug, arrogant attitude of those religious zealots and busy-bodies who declare my life lacks value in the here and now.


Go ahead.

Live in the arrogance of your ignorance (clinical term).

But you've yet to do anything but arrogantly, and ignorantly declare folks' life has no meaning - unless there's an afterlife you can't show exists.


The god concept at work - Those who don't believe have no inherent value. They're only as valuable as the dirt it took God to make 'em out of.


Alas, none of that matters to the god concept - where an attempt to ameliorate ignorance is provided by a lack of respect for anyone but fellow believers.

[Zzyzx]

.

But you do suffer from cognitive dissonance.

One who has demonstrated that they lack comprehension of the meaning of cogitative dissonance may not be in a position to diagnose the condition in others.

You hold two contradictory beliefs.

False

You believe life has meaning. You do not believe in an afterlife.

There is no conflict or contradiction between those two sentences EXCEPT possibly in the minds of afterlife proponents. However, afterlife proponents CANNOT demonstrate that any such thing exists outside human imagination.

And as I pointed out to you, life can have no meaning without an afterlife.

As I pointed out to you, that is your OPINION. We are not in church here preacher where your OPINION might be highly regarded. In honorable debate (and abiding by Forum Rules) personal opinions are evidence of NOTHING and claims are expected and required to be substantiated with evidence.

I hereby formally challenge your claim "life can have no meaning without afterlife" and ask for evidence or retraction of the claim or acknowledge that you are blowing smoke.

If you (generic term) wish to base the meaning of life on a proposed (but not authenticated) "afterlife" that is your business – but your notions are not binding upon others.

You will be as dead as a door nail with no recollection whatsoever of any good thing or evil thing you ever did,

I have encountered no credible evidence whatsoever that recollection or consciousness or "soul" transcend death. Those who claim otherwise are asked to provide evidence (beyond opinion, testimonial, conjecture, imagination, folklore, legend, myth and/or unverifiable ancient tales by unidentified religion promoters.

and you will stay in your dead state for perhaps eternity.

"Eternity" has no application to decayed bodies and piles of bones (which we KNOW occurs after death of animals, humans included).

Those who have emotional difficulty accepting that for themselves or other humans may find comfort inventing an "afterlife" for their "soul" – neither of which has been demonstrated to be anything more than imagination.

You have no choice but to accept the absolute fact that life is meaningless without eternal life.

Correction preacher: I have the choice to consider my life meaningful in the real world as I live it. That religionists have difficulty accepting that position is their problem, not mine.

I have no objection to people imagining whatever they wish UNTIL they attempt to impose their faulty ideas upon me and others. When they attempt to do that in debate they have a problem – me and others who do not share their beliefs and/or imagination.

[FarWanderer]

[Replying to post 114 by FarWanderer]

The number 542 in itself is metaphysical in that the number 542 is a concept. However, my dichotomy is proven through reference to reality itself.

It seems quite strange to me to define the term "metaphysical possibility" only in terms of "real" things while leaving other metaphysical things out of it.

[Donray]

z

[Replying to post 119 by Zzyzx]

But you do suffer from cognitive dissonance. You hold two contradictory beliefs. You believe life has meaning. You do not believe in an afterlife. And as I pointed out to you, life can have no meaning without an afterlife. You will be as dead as a door nail with no recollection whatsoever of any good thing or evil thing you ever did, and you will stay in your dead state for perhaps eternity. You have no choice but to accept the absolute fact that life is meaningless without eternal life.

I have found no Christian thus far that could describe what they think the afterlife (heaven) is like. One should be able to at least describe heaven in terms of what everyday life would be like. Are you assigned a job, can you have sex with anyone that is agreeable, what types of entertainment will be available, how is food provided, who selects what your body will like look, etc. And also, will god give everyone the same knowledge? For example if a fetus dies what knowledge is it given? Also, how is Alzheimer handled by god?

So, lets see how much you know about the afterlife.