50,000 errors in Bible

[TrueReligion]

The Jehovah's Witnesses in their "AWAKE!" Magazine dated 8 September, 1957, carried this startling headline " "50000 ERRORS IN THE BIBLE?" (See below for the reproduction).

http://www.jamaat.net/bible/AwakeArticle(1957).html

What the christians have to say in this, is still remaining or they are removed? if removed? how many remaining now?

Then how come it becomes word of God?

[TrueReligion]

From Post 9:

So the last remaining is Quran, which is tilll now, not tempered and saved still, which is also proven by alll historians.
Therefore, to refer Bible as God's word, is also not correct.

That a book hasn't had its contents distorted says nothing about the accuracy of said book.

I challenge the assertion this book is "proven by all historians" (italics mine). Please document or retract this outrageous claim.

On what basis do you consider the Quran an accurate reflection of its proposed god?

I can post the source and commentries of historians about Quran, that is never been distorted.
Your other claim for reflection of God , or Quran is from God, you have to read it 1st, and thn put in under test for past, present model of society.
You have to find the predictions made by Quran, which came true as well.
Even if you could;nt unerstand, we will discuss thn.
Thank You

Non-muslim scientists remarks on Quran.

http://www.islamicmedicine.org/nonmuslim.htm

Despite such defective theories, many orientalists themselves have admitted like Gibb that It seems reasonably well established that no material changes were introduced and that the original form of Mohammeds discourses were preserved with scrupulous precision [36]. John Burton, at the end of his substantial work on the Qurans compilation, says with reference to criticisms made of different readings narrated in Ahadith that No major differences of doctrines can be constructed on the basis of the parallel readings based on the Uthmanic consonantal outline, yet ascribed to mushafs other than his. All the rival readings unquestionably represent one and the same text. They are substantially agreed in what they transmit [37]. He further states that the Qur'an as we have it today is the text which has come down to us in the form in which it was organized and approved by the Prophet. What we have today in our hands is the mushaf of Muhammad. [38]. Kenneth Cragg describes the transmission of the Qur'an from the time of revelation to today as occurring in an unbroken living sequence of devotion [39]. Schwally concurs that As far as the various pieces of revelation are concerned, we may be confident that their text has been generally transmitted exactly as it was found in the Prophet's legacy [40].

The historical credibility of the Qur'an is further established by the fact that one of the copies sent out by the Caliph Uthman is still in existence today. It lies in the Museum of the City of Tashkent in Uzbekistan, Central Asia [41]. A facsimile of the mushaf in Tashkent is available at the Columbia University Library in the USA [42]. This copy is proof that the text of the Quran we have in circulation today is identical with that of the time of the Prophet and his companions. A copy of the mushaf sent to Syria (duplicated before a fire in 1310AH/1892CE destroyed the Jaami' Masjid where it was housed) also exists in the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul [43], and an early manuscript on gazelle parchment exists in Dar al-Kutub as-Sultaniyyah in Egypt. More ancient manuscripts from all periods of Islamic history found in the Library of Congress in Washington, the Chester Beatty Museum in Dublin (Ireland) and the London Museum have been compared with those in Tashkent, Turkey and Egypt, with results confirming that there have not been any changes in the text from its original time of writing [44].

The Institute for Koranforschung, for example, in the University of Munich (Germany), collected over 42,000 complete or incomplete ancient copies of the Quran. After around fifty years of research, they reported that there was no variance between the various copies, except the occasional mistakes of the copyist which could easily be ascertained. This Institute was unfortunately destroyed by bombs during WWII [45].

[40] Schwally, Geschichte des Qorans, Leipzig: Dieterich'sche Verlagsbuchhandlung,1909-38, Vol.2, p.120

[41] Yusuf Ibrahim al-Nur, Ma' al-Masaahif, Dubai: Dar al-Manar, 1st ed., 1993, p.117; Isma'il Makhdum, Tarikh al-Mushaf al-Uthmani fi Tashqand, Tashkent: Al-Idara al-Diniya, 1971, p.22ff

[42] The Muslim World, 1940, Vol.30, p.357-358

[43] Yusuf Ibrahim al-Nur, Ma' al-Masaahif, Dubai: Dar al-Manar, 1st ed., 1993, p.113

[44] Bilal Philips, Usool at-Tafseer, Sharjah: Dar al-Fatah, 1997, p.157

[TrueReligion]

I see. Is it fair to assume you're a Muslim? If so, this was not apparent in your OP as I thought you were a non-theist. It is good to see Muslims engaging in well-intentioned debate amongst Christians, Jews, and non-theists.

Having said that, could you please direct me to the link that would verify all historians have proved the Quran to be "not tempered (I believe you mean to say "tampered with") and saved still"?

Additionally, I am confused when you claim the Bible has been distorted due to war. Are you suggesting the Quran has not seen war or that it was not distorted even though it did see war? If the former, are you sure about that? If the latter, how is that one book is not distorted and the other is when both are faced with similar conditions such as war?

Am I making sense?

Yes , your request and reasons are understanndable.

For Quran to verify that its not been tempered and changed, you can check any older translation of Quran, and compre it with modern or any Quran, they will be same word by word.
2nd reason is, Quran dont have multiple versions, its only 1 version. unline Bible, e.g KJV. RSV , Hebrew, Greek, Samaritan etc etc.

For War, it was 1 of many reasons that Bible was not being able to keep its original script, Jews destroyed many churches, and civilization, babylon etc etc .
But Quran was kept same, as no this kind of war Islam have seen, that complete civilization was finish,
Also Quran is memorizedd by millions of muslims, even the dot, comma and other imp arabic terms. even if Quran is finished as a book, it will remain complete memorized in heart by muslims. and Thats 1 of the many miracle of Quran, that even non-arabic muslims can easily memorize it.

Hope I clear the points to you efficiently.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 14:

I can post the source and commentries of historians about Quran, that is never been distorted.

I say again:

1- How does the fact the contents of a book haven't been distorted evidence that book's claims are correct?

2- What evidence is there to show the Quran has been "proven by all historians" (italics mine)?

Your other claim for reflection of God , or Quran is from God, you have to read it 1st, and thn put in under test for past, present model of society.

I'm putting it under the test by challenging you to offer evidence for the above.

You have to find the predictions made by Quran, which came true as well.

Name one.

Even if you could;nt unerstand, we will discuss thn.
Thank You

As a disclaimer, I can't just come out and say the Quran is false. However, you indicate it is an accurate reflection of its proposed god, so the burden is on you.

[TrueReligion]

From Post 14:

I can post the source and commentries of historians about Quran, that is never been distorted.

I say again:

1- How does the fact the contents of a book haven't been distorted evidence that book's claims are correct?

2- What evidence is there to show the Quran has been "proven by all historians" (italics mine)?

Your other claim for reflection of God , or Quran is from God, you have to read it 1st, and thn put in under test for past, present model of society.

I'm putting it under the test by challenging you to offer evidence for the above.

You have to find the predictions made by Quran, which came true as well.

Name one.

Even if you could;nt unerstand, we will discuss thn.
Thank You

As a disclaimer, I can't just come out and say the Quran is false. However, you indicate it is an accurate reflection of its proposed god, so the burden is on you.

I'am sorry, I forgot to provide the link and other necesary remarks of non-muslim historians, I puut it there already, you can check in our previous post .

[Goat]

From Post 9:

So the last remaining is Quran, which is tilll now, not tempered and saved still, which is also proven by alll historians.
Therefore, to refer Bible as God's word, is also not correct.

That a book hasn't had its contents distorted says nothing about the accuracy of said book.

I challenge the assertion this book is "proven by all historians" (italics mine). Please document or retract this outrageous claim.

On what basis do you consider the Quran an accurate reflection of its proposed god?

I can post the source and commentries of historians about Quran, that is never been distorted.
Your other claim for reflection of God , or Quran is from God, you have to read it 1st, and thn put in under test for past, present model of society.
You have to find the predictions made by Quran, which came true as well.
Even if you could;nt unerstand, we will discuss thn.
Thank You

Non-muslim scientists remarks on Quran.

http://www.islamicmedicine.org/nonmuslim.htm

Despite such defective theories, many orientalists themselves have admitted like Gibb that It seems reasonably well established that no material changes were introduced and that the original form of Mohammeds discourses were preserved with scrupulous precision [36]. John Burton, at the end of his substantial work on the Qurans compilation, says with reference to criticisms made of different readings narrated in Ahadith that No major differences of doctrines can be constructed on the basis of the parallel readings based on the Uthmanic consonantal outline, yet ascribed to mushafs other than his. All the rival readings unquestionably represent one and the same text. They are substantially agreed in what they transmit [37]. He further states that the Qur'an as we have it today is the text which has come down to us in the form in which it was organized and approved by the Prophet. What we have today in our hands is the mushaf of Muhammad. [38]. Kenneth Cragg describes the transmission of the Qur'an from the time of revelation to today as occurring in an unbroken living sequence of devotion [39]. Schwally concurs that As far as the various pieces of revelation are concerned, we may be confident that their text has been generally transmitted exactly as it was found in the Prophet's legacy [40].

The historical credibility of the Qur'an is further established by the fact that one of the copies sent out by the Caliph Uthman is still in existence today. It lies in the Museum of the City of Tashkent in Uzbekistan, Central Asia [41]. A facsimile of the mushaf in Tashkent is available at the Columbia University Library in the USA [42]. This copy is proof that the text of the Quran we have in circulation today is identical with that of the time of the Prophet and his companions. A copy of the mushaf sent to Syria (duplicated before a fire in 1310AH/1892CE destroyed the Jaami' Masjid where it was housed) also exists in the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul [43], and an early manuscript on gazelle parchment exists in Dar al-Kutub as-Sultaniyyah in Egypt. More ancient manuscripts from all periods of Islamic history found in the Library of Congress in Washington, the Chester Beatty Museum in Dublin (Ireland) and the London Museum have been compared with those in Tashkent, Turkey and Egypt, with results confirming that there have not been any changes in the text from its original time of writing [44].

The Institute for Koranforschung, for example, in the University of Munich (Germany), collected over 42,000 complete or incomplete ancient copies of the Quran. After around fifty years of research, they reported that there was no variance between the various copies, except the occasional mistakes of the copyist which could easily be ascertained. This Institute was unfortunately destroyed by bombs during WWII [45].

[40] Schwally, Geschichte des Qorans, Leipzig: Dieterich'sche Verlagsbuchhandlung,1909-38, Vol.2, p.120

[41] Yusuf Ibrahim al-Nur, Ma' al-Masaahif, Dubai: Dar al-Manar, 1st ed., 1993, p.117; Isma'il Makhdum, Tarikh al-Mushaf al-Uthmani fi Tashqand, Tashkent: Al-Idara al-Diniya, 1971, p.22ff

[42] The Muslim World, 1940, Vol.30, p.357-358

[43] Yusuf Ibrahim al-Nur, Ma' al-Masaahif, Dubai: Dar al-Manar, 1st ed., 1993, p.113

[44] Bilal Philips, Usool at-Tafseer, Sharjah: Dar al-Fatah, 1997, p.157

Lists of people don't really do anything for me. What is the context of their remarks, and what did they actually say? What was the circumstances around their
remarks?? For example, I noticed the first one was someone who was being paid handsomely to make remarks.. that puts the bias in there for profit (rather than prophet).

I will also note a list of a limited number of people where their comments are not even published, much less the context in which they made them reported is not
showing anything what so ever.

There is this little matter of the world 'All'. A limited subset with insufficent informatoin is not even approaching the claim 'all', particularly when the list is being published by a web site that has a specific bias in mind (that is trying to prove the Koran to be from God).

[Catharsis]

The Jehovah's Witnesses in their "AWAKE!" Magazine dated 8 September, 1957, carried this startling headline " "50000 ERRORS IN THE BIBLE?" (See below for the reproduction).

What the christians have to say in this, is still remaining or they are removed? if removed? how many remaining now?

This is meaningless, as this ludicrous claim comes from the Watchtower Religious Organization - a man-made organization which uses a mutilated version of "the Bible". They claimed that "the Bible" contains errors, so they "rewrote" it as they saw fit.

http://www.sixscreensofthewatchtower.co ... tion1.html

[Vanguard]

I see. Is it fair to assume you're a Muslim? If so, this was not apparent in your OP as I thought you were a non-theist. It is good to see Muslims engaging in well-intentioned debate amongst Christians, Jews, and non-theists.

Having said that, could you please direct me to the link that would verify all historians have proved the Quran to be "not tempered (I believe you mean to say "tampered with") and saved still"?

Additionally, I am confused when you claim the Bible has been distorted due to war. Are you suggesting the Quran has not seen war or that it was not distorted even though it did see war? If the former, are you sure about that? If the latter, how is that one book is not distorted and the other is when both are faced with similar conditions such as war?

Am I making sense?

Yes , your request and reasons are understanndable.

For Quran to verify that its not been tempered and changed, you can check any older translation of Quran, and compre it with modern or any Quran, they will be same word by word.
2nd reason is, Quran dont have multiple versions, its only 1 version. unline Bible, e.g KJV. RSV , Hebrew, Greek, Samaritan etc etc.

That is indeed impressive to have a book maintain its consistency throughout so many centuries.

For War, it was 1 of many reasons that Bible was not being able to keep its original script, Jews destroyed many churches, and civilization, babylon etc etc .
But Quran was kept same, as no this kind of war Islam have seen, that complete civilization was finish,

Could you restate this? I did not understand your point.

Also Quran is memorizedd by millions of muslims, even the dot, comma and other imp arabic terms. even if Quran is finished as a book, it will remain complete memorized in heart by muslims. and Thats 1 of the many miracle of Quran, that even non-arabic muslims can easily memorize it.

I'm sure there are many Christians who also memorize their holy writ. I'm not sure what your point is though?

Again, when claiming authenticity of holy writ it does help to have what is largely accepted as the original version as it were. Assuming that indeed every historian agrees the Quran has not had any changes made to it, this does favorably distinguish it from the Christian Bible. I too have my reservations about much of what has been claimed from the OT and particulary the NT. My own Christian faith in its Articles of Faith claims that we believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. This is to imply that parts of the scripture have lost its initial meaning for many reason including some of which you have listed. We as Latter-day Saints contend that a prophet is the only one vested with helping the masses sift through much of the confusion found in the Bible and its many versions.

Returning to the questions more germane to your OP, what is it that prompts you to be confident that the authorship of the Quran is indeed communications from God?

[TrueReligion]

From Post 9:

So the last remaining is Quran, which is tilll now, not tempered and saved still, which is also proven by alll historians.
Therefore, to refer Bible as God's word, is also not correct.

That a book hasn't had its contents distorted says nothing about the accuracy of said book.

I challenge the assertion this book is "proven by all historians" (italics mine). Please document or retract this outrageous claim.

On what basis do you consider the Quran an accurate reflection of its proposed god?

I can post the source and commentries of historians about Quran, that is never been distorted.
Your other claim for reflection of God , or Quran is from God, you have to read it 1st, and thn put in under test for past, present model of society.
You have to find the predictions made by Quran, which came true as well.
Even if you could;nt unerstand, we will discuss thn.
Thank You

Non-muslim scientists remarks on Quran.

http://www.islamicmedicine.org/nonmuslim.htm

Despite such defective theories, many orientalists themselves have admitted like Gibb that It seems reasonably well established that no material changes were introduced and that the original form of Mohammeds discourses were preserved with scrupulous precision [36]. John Burton, at the end of his substantial work on the Qurans compilation, says with reference to criticisms made of different readings narrated in Ahadith that No major differences of doctrines can be constructed on the basis of the parallel readings based on the Uthmanic consonantal outline, yet ascribed to mushafs other than his. All the rival readings unquestionably represent one and the same text. They are substantially agreed in what they transmit [37]. He further states that the Qur'an as we have it today is the text which has come down to us in the form in which it was organized and approved by the Prophet. What we have today in our hands is the mushaf of Muhammad. [38]. Kenneth Cragg describes the transmission of the Qur'an from the time of revelation to today as occurring in an unbroken living sequence of devotion [39]. Schwally concurs that As far as the various pieces of revelation are concerned, we may be confident that their text has been generally transmitted exactly as it was found in the Prophet's legacy [40].

The historical credibility of the Qur'an is further established by the fact that one of the copies sent out by the Caliph Uthman is still in existence today. It lies in the Museum of the City of Tashkent in Uzbekistan, Central Asia [41]. A facsimile of the mushaf in Tashkent is available at the Columbia University Library in the USA [42]. This copy is proof that the text of the Quran we have in circulation today is identical with that of the time of the Prophet and his companions. A copy of the mushaf sent to Syria (duplicated before a fire in 1310AH/1892CE destroyed the Jaami' Masjid where it was housed) also exists in the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul [43], and an early manuscript on gazelle parchment exists in Dar al-Kutub as-Sultaniyyah in Egypt. More ancient manuscripts from all periods of Islamic history found in the Library of Congress in Washington, the Chester Beatty Museum in Dublin (Ireland) and the London Museum have been compared with those in Tashkent, Turkey and Egypt, with results confirming that there have not been any changes in the text from its original time of writing [44].

The Institute for Koranforschung, for example, in the University of Munich (Germany), collected over 42,000 complete or incomplete ancient copies of the Quran. After around fifty years of research, they reported that there was no variance between the various copies, except the occasional mistakes of the copyist which could easily be ascertained. This Institute was unfortunately destroyed by bombs during WWII [45].

[40] Schwally, Geschichte des Qorans, Leipzig: Dieterich'sche Verlagsbuchhandlung,1909-38, Vol.2, p.120

[41] Yusuf Ibrahim al-Nur, Ma' al-Masaahif, Dubai: Dar al-Manar, 1st ed., 1993, p.117; Isma'il Makhdum, Tarikh al-Mushaf al-Uthmani fi Tashqand, Tashkent: Al-Idara al-Diniya, 1971, p.22ff

[42] The Muslim World, 1940, Vol.30, p.357-358

[43] Yusuf Ibrahim al-Nur, Ma' al-Masaahif, Dubai: Dar al-Manar, 1st ed., 1993, p.113

[44] Bilal Philips, Usool at-Tafseer, Sharjah: Dar al-Fatah, 1997, p.157

Lists of people don't really do anything for me. What is the context of their remarks, and what did they actually say? What was the circumstances around their
remarks?? For example, I noticed the first one was someone who was being paid handsomely to make remarks.. that puts the bias in there for profit (rather than prophet).

There is difference between Normal People and Historians, and thats what make their comments authentic. e.g you beelieve Darwin propsed the theory, for me its aperson, I dont believe in him, but you believe, y?
You have to provide the source if amount and how much was paid by whom, when, etc etc:) otherwise its just a statement, nothing else, u know the rules well for debate

I will also note a list of a limited number of people where their comments are not even published, much less the context in which they made them reported is not
showing anything what so ever.

I can bring lots more people with their remarks, who have historical reputation, maybe peeople willl not take your remarks, as its a normal person, but their remarks, make some sense, because they are historians, and tehologians, scholars. Thats what is called authentic proof.


There is this little matter of the world 'All'. A limited subset with insufficent informatoin is not even approaching the claim 'all', particularly when the list is being published by a web site that has a specific bias in mind (that is trying to prove the Koran to be from God).

Thats why, the website have given references of the people from whom the remarks have been taken. If you have ddoubt, check the references of those peoples book, and find out yourself, through your remarks, it seems you are getting BIAS towards Quran and Islam:)

Laslty, this post is regarding Bible, not Quran, so bring your topics and discussion on Bible please as per the rules

[TrueReligion]

The Jehovah's Witnesses in their "AWAKE!" Magazine dated 8 September, 1957, carried this startling headline " "50000 ERRORS IN THE BIBLE?" (See below for the reproduction).

What the christians have to say in this, is still remaining or they are removed? if removed? how many remaining now?

This is meaningless, as this ludicrous claim comes from the Watchtower Religious Organization - a man-made organization which uses a mutilated version of "the Bible". They claimed that "the Bible" contains errors, so they "rewrote" it as they saw fit.

http://www.sixscreensofthewatchtower.co ... tion1.html

Even if we consider JW's claim as false, do you mean that the Bible is without errors?

[TrueReligion]

Yes , your request and reasons are understanndable.

For Quran to verify that its not been tempered and changed, you can check any older translation of Quran, and compre it with modern or any Quran, they will be same word by word.
2nd reason is, Quran dont have multiple versions, its only 1 version. unline Bible, e.g KJV. RSV , Hebrew, Greek, Samaritan etc etc.

That is indeed impressive to have a book maintain its consistency throughout so many centuries.

For War, it was 1 of many reasons that Bible was not being able to keep its original script, Jews destroyed many churches, and civilization, babylon etc etc .
But Quran was kept same, as no this kind of war Islam have seen, that complete civilization was finish,

Could you restate this? I did not understand your point.

we have historical evidence that all the
books of the Old Testament were in a very bad condition before the invasion of
Nebuchadnezzar and after his invasion there was no trace of them left but their names, its 1 example, hope you can understand,, how the books were lost, and thn were re-writen by just imagination, and stories found as folk-tales, in which human-mind played a major part.

Also Quran is memorizedd by millions of muslims, even the dot, comma and other imp arabic terms. even if Quran is finished as a book, it will remain complete memorized in heart by muslims. and Thats 1 of the many miracle of Quran, that even non-arabic muslims can easily memorize it.

I'm sure there are many Christians who also memorize their holy writ. I'm not sure what your point is though?

My point is this, as Quran is same throughout centuries, and people have learnt by heart, its hard to change at any time, unlike Bible, where very less % of christians memorized it, including passtors, priests (they also have;nt memorized)etc etc, chances of changing text is more.
Like many verses and texts, are still changed in KJV and NIV.
Now question is, if its a word of God, y there are errors, and changes required, did God made soo many mistakes? that still after 2000+ years its not fixed?

Again, when claiming authenticity of holy writ it does help to have what is largely accepted as the original version as it were. Assuming that indeed every historian agrees the Quran has not had any changes made to it, this does favorably distinguish it from the Christian Bible. I too have my reservations about much of what has been claimed from the OT and particulary the NT. My own Christian faith in its Articles of Faith claims that we believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. This is to imply that parts of the scripture have lost its initial meaning for many reason including some of which you have listed. We as Latter-day Saints contend that a prophet is the only one vested with helping the masses sift through much of the confusion found in the Bible and its many versions.

Returning to the questions more germane to your OP, what is it that prompts you to be confident that the authorship of the Quran is indeed communications from God?

For Quran discussion and authenticity, we have another post going on sir, where we can discuss it more freely, if its ok for you, we can emphasize on Bible here only .
Hope you understand.