The witch of Endor

[Burninglight]

When the prophet Samuel told King Saul he lost his Kingdom because of his rebellion against God. He started taking matters into his own hands. After prophet Samuel's death he was troubled. He still wanted the prophet's blessing. So he went to the witch of Endor. The witch was afraid, because they put witches to death back then, but King Saul promised her protection. He wanted her to conjure up the prophet Samuel, and when she did, she totally freaked out when he showed up.
I couldn't understand why she freaked out nor could I understand why she was able to move the hand of God to allow the prophet of God to show up at her beckoning. I have an idea what happen, but I like to hear someone elses opinion as to what they think happened.

[Divine Insight]

I could almost agree here, except, Hell would be a merciful place compared to being in God's presence in heaven if one is not hid in Christ.

So now you've got a God that you have to "hide" from?

But I look at it like God is the Creator so He gets to say the way it will be independent of us.

I have no problem with that overall. Where the problem comes in is that his God is supposed to be "righteous", therefore he's not free to just do anything. Everything he does must be "righteous" lest he fail to live up to what he's supposed to be in this religion.

And from my perspective the things that these religious stories claim this God did are not "righteous" things, IMHO.

And yes, I necessarily must be the ultimate judge of what I consider to be "righteous" if the concept is to have any meaning for me. It's make no sense for me to proclaim that a God is "righteous" if the things he does and principles he stands for do not seem "righteous" to me.

Words are meaningless if they don't represent meaningful concepts.

I mean you could say that Hilter's views were "righteous" and when I disagree, you'd just say, "Well, maybe not by your idea of righteousness, but who cares about that?"

Either this God is "righteous" based on what righteous means to me, or he isn't.

So he's not free to be a mean bully and call that "righteous".

If an artist decides to boche a painting or a sculpture what right does the creation have to say to the Creator "What do you think you're doing?" The Bible states that God has placed before us life and death and He would that we choose life.

A truly wise benevolent God could do that without being obnoxious about it.

Maybe His eternal laws don't allow that we be put in a state of nonexistence.

Now you're putting limitations on God. You're violating the ideal that with God all things are possible.

People refuse to believe in God for different reasons.

I don't "refuse" to believe in anything. The Hebrew cannon of fables is simply utterly absurd to me and it genuinely 'unbelievable'.

Moreover, look at you. Are you "refusing" to believe in atheism?

Are you "refusing" to believe in one of the Eastern Mystical spiritual philosophies?

Are you "refusing" to believe in Greek Mythology? Or is it just that you don't believe in any of those things?

Are you "refusing" to believe everything that you don't believe simply because you refuse to believe in those things?

And if so, then why are you believing in the Hebrew fables? Simply because you fear that if you fail to believe in them some God will see that as "refusal to believe".

It seems to me that the Hebrew brainwashing tactics just work very well on you.

They simply don't work on me.

It is written that "there is a way that seems right to a man but that way leads to death" It also states that we shouldn't lean to our own understanding and in all our ways acknowledge Him and He will direct our path.

And there you go again saying "It is written".

Where is it "written".

Duh? It's "written" in the Hebrew fables!

It is also written that "How shall we escape the judgment of God if we neglect so great a salvation."

"So Great a Salvation"?

A God having his son crucified on my behalf would be the most disgusting salvation I can possible imagine. Where does anyone get off calling that "Great"?

I believe heaven is peace, love and happiness for all eternity with unspeakable joy. I want that joy and happiness. You have a view, IMHO, that would take me somewhere where angels fear to thread. I respect you power to chose. God has made you a free moral agent to chose or reject Him.

There you go again using the same time of underhanded Hebrew brainwashing tactics by implying that I am free to chose to "reject" some God.

I don't "reject" the God of the Hebrews anymore than you "reject" the God of the Greeks.

Are you "rejecting" Zeus? That implies that you actually BELIEVE in Zeus but refuse to honor him.

I doubt very much that you are "rejecting" Zeus. You simply don't believe in Greek mythology.

Well, it's the same way for me with Hebrew mythology. Why is it that you cannot comprehend this very simple thing? Have you been that deeply brainwashed by the religion that you can't even think rationally anymore?

He could have made us all complaint automatons, but he made us in His image and likeness.

Well, that's what he supposedly wants in the end. According to these fables ONLY HIS WILL BE DONE IN HEAVEN.

So when you die and go to this heaven you cannot any longer have a "Will" of your own because in heaven only God's will is done.

Therefore when you go to this heave you will necessarily need to become a compliant automaton and forfeit any notion of having any free personal will.

Have you ever given any thought to that?

Words are real things, they can justify us or condemn us; they can bless or curse. Out or it are the issues of life! I believe Jesus is God's word incarnate. Jesus taught us that God's only law is love. If we love God with all our heart soul and mind and our neighbor as ourselves we have fulfilled all the law and the prophets! Jesus is the total spiritual sum of all things and we all get to choose what we will do with Him!

Buddha basically taught the same things 500 years before Jesus. As did Confucius, and Lao Tzu.

The only difference is that they weren't nailed to the Old Testament to be held up as the sacrificial lamb of a jealous male-chauvinistic God who can only forgive people if someone is crucified first.

Like I say, Christianity really has very little to do with Jesus. It's far more focused on the writings of Paul and on a belief that the Old Testament is the Word of God.

Jesus is merely used as a pasty to hold up these other things in Jesus' name.

Christianity is the anti-thesis of Jesus.

Jesus is the greatest VICTIM of the religion that claims him as their trophy.

[Burninglight]

I could almost agree here, except, Hell would be a merciful place compared to being in God's presence in heaven if one is not hid in Christ.

So now you've got a God that you have to "hide" from?.

You have a point there. Like Noah was safe hid in the ark. God is terrible; it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. I wouldn't want to get into a pissing contest with God. Job debated with God and he did nothing wrong and lost the debate. He challenge God about His justice, But job didn't sin against God with his words. His wife told him to curse God and die.

But I look at it like God is the Creator so He gets to say the way it will be independent of us.

I have no problem with that overall. Where the problem comes in is that his God is supposed to be "righteous", therefore he's not free to just do anything. Everything he does must be "righteous" lest he fail to live up to what he's supposed to be in this religion.

And from my perspective the things that these religious stories claim this God did are not "righteous" things, IMHO.

And yes, I necessarily must be the ultimate judge of what I consider to be "righteous" if the concept is to have any meaning for me. It's make no sense for me to proclaim that a God is "righteous" if the things he does and principles he stands for do not seem "righteous" to me.

Words are meaningless if they don't represent meaningful concepts.

I mean you could say that Hilter's views were "righteous" and when I disagree, you'd just say, "Well, maybe not by your idea of righteousness, but who cares about that?"

Either this God is "righteous" based on what righteous means to me, or he isn't.

So he's not free to be a mean bully and call that "righteous".

If an artist decides to boche a painting or a sculpture what right does the creation have to say to the Creator "What do you think you're doing?" The Bible states that God has placed before us life and death and He would that we choose life.

A truly wise benevolent God could do that without being obnoxious about it.

Maybe His eternal laws don't allow that we be put in a state of nonexistence.

Now you're putting limitations on God. You're violating the ideal that with God all things are possible.

People refuse to believe in God for different reasons.

I don't "refuse" to believe in anything. The Hebrew cannon of fables is simply utterly absurd to me and it genuinely 'unbelievable'.

Moreover, look at you. Are you "refusing" to believe in atheism?

Are you "refusing" to believe in one of the Eastern Mystical spiritual philosophies?

Are you "refusing" to believe in Greek Mythology? Or is it just that you don't believe in any of those things?

Are you "refusing" to believe everything that you don't believe simply because you refuse to believe in those things?

And if so, then why are you believing in the Hebrew fables? Simply because you fear that if you fail to believe in them some God will see that as "refusal to believe".

It seems to me that the Hebrew brainwashing tactics just work very well on you.

They simply don't work on me.

It is written that "there is a way that seems right to a man but that way leads to death" It also states that we shouldn't lean to our own understanding and in all our ways acknowledge Him and He will direct our path.

And there you go again saying "It is written".

Where is it "written".

Duh? It's "written" in the Hebrew fables!

It is also written that "How shall we escape the judgment of God if we neglect so great a salvation."

"So Great a Salvation"?

A God having his son crucified on my behalf would be the most disgusting salvation I can possible imagine. Where does anyone get off calling that "Great"?

I believe heaven is peace, love and happiness for all eternity with unspeakable joy. I want that joy and happiness. You have a view, IMHO, that would take me somewhere where angels fear to thread. I respect you power to chose. God has made you a free moral agent to chose or reject Him.

There you go again using the same time of underhanded Hebrew brainwashing tactics by implying that I am free to chose to "reject" some God.

I don't "reject" the God of the Hebrews anymore than you "reject" the God of the Greeks.

Are you "rejecting" Zeus? That implies that you actually BELIEVE in Zeus but refuse to honor him.

I doubt very much that you are "rejecting" Zeus. You simply don't believe in Greek mythology.

Well, it's the same way for me with Hebrew mythology. Why is it that you cannot comprehend this very simple thing? Have you been that deeply brainwashed by the religion that you can't even think rationally anymore?

He could have made us all complaint automatons, but he made us in His image and likeness.

Well, that's what he supposedly wants in the end. According to these fables ONLY HIS WILL BE DONE IN HEAVEN.

So when you die and go to this heaven you cannot any longer have a "Will" of your own because in heaven only God's will is done.

Therefore when you go to this heave you will necessarily need to become a compliant automaton and forfeit any notion of having any free personal will.

Have you ever given any thought to that?

Words are real things, they can justify us or condemn us; they can bless or curse. Out or it are the issues of life! I believe Jesus is God's word incarnate. Jesus taught us that God's only law is love. If we love God with all our heart soul and mind and our neighbor as ourselves we have fulfilled all the law and the prophets! Jesus is the total spiritual sum of all things and we all get to choose what we will do with Him!

Buddha basically taught the same things 500 years before Jesus. As did Confucius, and Lao Tzu.

The only difference is that they weren't nailed to the Old Testament to be held up as the sacrificial lamb of a jealous male-chauvinistic God who can only forgive people if someone is crucified first.

Like I say, Christianity really has very little to do with Jesus. It's far more focused on the writings of Paul and on a belief that the Old Testament is the Word of God.

Jesus is merely used as a pasty to hold up these other things in Jesus' name.

Christianity is the anti-thesis of Jesus.

Jesus is the greatest VICTIM of the religion that claims him as their trophy.

Religion is what nailed jesus to the cross. I am not interested in religion; I am interested in a relationship with God through Christ! I believe people would be able to see God's mercy when they learn of Satan's justice, but it might be too late. Someone people had died and came back to tell their experiences of heaven and hell.
People blow it off as nothing, but I don't! I don't judge you to believe as you do, but I couldn't feel comfortable thinking the way you do for me.

[Divine Insight]

God is terrible; it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

You say that quite often. I can see that your relationship with God is heavily based on fear and that you view Jesus as someone who can protect you from this terrible God.

I suppose if I believe that way, I'd be frightened of God as well.

I wouldn't want to get into a pissing contest with God.

It's a shame that you think that might even be necessary.

Job debated with God and he did nothing wrong and lost the debate. He challenge God about His justice, But job didn't sin against God with his words. His wife told him to curse God and die.

I think the story of Job is one of the sickest stories in the Bible. In that story Satan goes to God and requests permission to do evil things to Job and God grants the devil his divine permission.

How ironic is that? Satan asking God for permission to do his evil works? And God actually granted Satan permission? Sounds like Satan is one of God's most loyal servants of God not even acting without asking God for permission first. That's a far cry from a picture of a demon who is at war with God and doing things against God's will.

The whole story of Job is a total contradiction to the concept of Satan supposedly being a fallen angel who wants to take over God's position as the ultimate authority.

These fables have no consistency at all.

Religion is what nailed jesus to the cross. I am not interested in religion;

What is religion but a belief in a particular God myth or spiritual philosophy.

Apparently you've bought into the Hebrew God myth hook, line, and sinker, to use your own description. That's religion. And you've even stated that you've invested your entire life into it and it's too late to back out now. That's certainly understandable. It would be extremely difficult to toss in the towel on a religion that had been the basis of your entire life. You've got a lot vested in it.

I am interested in a relationship with God through Christ! I believe people would be able to see God's mercy when they learn of Satan's justice, but it might be too late.

That's pretty obvious. And I certainly hope you've found that. But it appears to me that you also seem to be pretty "concerned" that other people might fall though the cracks of this God's justice system which, to me, indicates that you aren't totally convinced that God's justice system is perfectly just.

If you believe that God's justice system is perfectly just then you shouldn't be concerned about anyone's salvation but your own.

I'm confident that any God who has a fair and just system of justice will embrace me lovingly when this life is over. And I'm thoroughly convinced that any God who would fail to do that could only be an unjust God.

I don't need to get into a "pissing contest" with any God about this. On the contrary if that was required it would only prove that God is indeed unjust.

Someone people had died and came back to tell their experiences of heaven and hell.

A lot of people have had near death experiences and have told all sorts of spiritual stories from all the religions around the world. Christianity doesn't hold the patent rights for near death experiences. So if we're going to go by people's personal spiritual experiences we'd have to give every religion on earth equal merit.

People blow it off as nothing, but I don't!

Well, of course you don't. You've invested your entire life believing in the Hebrew picture of God, you're pretty much stuck with having to continue to support that view now until you die because, as you've already stated, you have too much invested to turn back now.

I don't judge you to believe as you do, but I couldn't feel comfortable thinking the way you do for me.

I'm not asking you do change religions, especially at this point in your life.

You need to understand that we got into our conversations originally because you were basically "preaching" and demanding that God would be upset with "non-believers" and you were condemning things like "witchcraft" etc, as being absolutely sins, based on your beliefs.

And that's fine. No one is asking you to participate in witchcraft.

But when you preach to others, and especially suggest to them that they are in danger of the hell fire wrath of the Hebrew God, it only makes sense that they are going to respond to you by telling you why they have rejected the Hebrew picture as being totally without any merit whatsoever.

They are simply attempting to explain to you why they don't buy into the Hebrew religious folklore. And that's all I'm doing.

I'm not trying to "convert" you to start believing in some other religion. To be perfectly honest with you I don't care whether you believe in Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Wicca, or even Atheism.

It matters not to me what you personally believe.

Like you, I too believe in a spiritual essence of reality. I believe that our true nature is ultimately spiritual and that when we die we will 'wake up" from the dream that we call "physical reality".

Unlike you, I believe in a truly loving God that I personally have no reason to fear. I'm not an evil person, and therefore I have no reason to fear a divine just God. The only kind of God I would need to fear would be a demonic unjust God.

So my spiritual beliefs are not based on a "fear of God". I don't need to believe that any God had to have his son (or anyone else) butchered to pay for my 'sins'.

To me, that whole picture is so far from being a picture of divinity that I'm totally baffled why so many people can embrace that picture as being a picture of a supposedly all-wise divine God. It's simply so far from being divine in my view that it's not even worth considering at all.

I do try to convince people in general of this. Especially younger people who haven't fallen for the scam yet. Unlike you, they haven't invested their entirely lives in the religion yet so they can avoid that fate early on.

I personally believe it would be better for them, and everyone who has to live in the same world with them. Religions based on a terrible jealous God who needs to be feared and hid from in some "Christ" have a very negative affect on humanity, IMHO.

The "jealous God" concept is what causes the Abrahamic religious to be so venomous and hateful toward each other. This is especially true in the religious tensions between Christianity and Islam in particular. Those two religions are at each others throats threatening to culminate into a global war if something doesn't happen to stop them from their current direction.

Both of these religions are actually at "War" as we speak. They are having "proselytizing wars" on the Internet, each trying to convert as many people over to their religion as possible.

And sometimes it can get pretty cut-throat. In fact, the whole concept of "suicide bombers" is based on this idea of a jealous God who the suicide bomber has been convinced that he is acting to DEFEND.

That's how outrageous these religions become. The Tailban is based on this very same foundational religion and they treat women very much the way the ancient Hebrew of the Bible treated their women. Where do you think the Taliban came up with all these ideas in the first place?

So yes Burninglight. On a personal level, at your age, and with how much you've invested into Christianity I'd say go ahead and keep believing it until the day you die. You've already made a commitment to it. It can't hurt you unless it truly is causing you much anguish being concerned that people might be falling through the cracks of God's unfair justice system.

You yourself refer to God as being "terrible" and feel that you need to hide from God in Christ. You speak of Christ as someone who is going to "save" you from God's wrath. Yet at the same time you don't give the impression that you are totally confident that he will.

You feel concerned for me, because you think I might fall through the cracks of God's perfectly righteous justice system.

I feel concerned for you, because you appear to be totally unsure of whether even Christ will save you from this terrible God.

The only reason I have told you about the Eastern Mystical philosophies is to make sure you realize that there are more than just two choices. It doesn't need to come down to either accepting the Hebrew picture of God, or facing atheism head-on.

There are other spiritual philosophies to be had. And many of them are far prettier than either atheism or the terrible God of the Hebrews.

I've chosen to view "God" in this way. I view "God" as being truly benevolent and not "terrible" at all.

After all, if "God" is truly divine and all-loving, all-wise, and all the other wonderfully beautiful character traits that we love to assign to a "God", then why not chose a spiritual philosophy that allows us to view God in this way?

The Hebrew picture of God is a picture of a 'terrible God" to use your own words.

Why do you chose to place your faith in a religion that demands that God is terrible?

By doing that, aren't you basically condemning God to being terrible?

Why would I want to insult God by choosing to believe in a religion that makes God out to be terrible?

If you were a young child who loves your father, would you run out and get a picture of the most despicable criminal you could find and bring it to your father and say, "I believe this picture is YOU!"

No, wouldn't do that. You'd go out and find the most wonderful picture of the most loving caring father you could find and come running back saying, "Daddy daddy I think this looks like YOU!"

Well, that's what I do.

I search for the most divine picture of God I can find and place my faith in that picture.

I don't fall for religions scams being pushed onto me by a male-chauvinistic who demands that God can't forgive me until he has his son butchered on a pole.

That is not a divine picture of a God, IMHO, so why would I want to chose to place my faith in that ugly picture of a terrible God?

It makes no sense.

If I chose to do that all I would be doing is choosing to insult God by proclaiming that I believe he's that terrible.

[Burninglight]

The Bible states that the fear of God is the beginning of knowledge and wisdom. I don't feel I would ever have to get into a pissing contest with anyone let alone God. I am totally secure in my salvation. Nothing can separate me from the love of Christ. Paul said "Woe is unto me if I preach not the gospel." By the space of 3.5 years he ceased not to warn everyone night and day with tears. It sounds like he was concerned. he hated Christians and called them and insidious cult, but Jesus knock him off his high horse. Jesus spoke to him telling him the things he must do and suffer for His name's sake. Paul obeyed his heavenly vision. Without a vision the Bible states the people perish. God has given me a vision to share the gospel (good news). I am warned by Jesus that I must be wise as serpent but harmless as a dove and I am told that people will lash out at me. I am told not to cast my perils before swines and dogs. I don't believe that about you; so i share. I refuse to judge you. I can see you as greater than myself

[Divine Insight]

The Bible states that the fear of God is the beginning of knowledge and wisdom.

Yes, but look what you're doing here.

Say what's you really mean,.... The Hebrew's state that a fear of their God is the beginning of knowledge and wisdom.

The Hebrew authors of these religious fables are trying hard to sell their readers on the idea that it's important to believe in their God.

You're allowing the brainwashers to brainwash you, and you're using the brainwasher's scriptures to support the brainwashing. You keep saying "It is written", but that's not impressive.

It was also "written" by the Greeks that Zeus is the God of Gods. It's no big deal.

I don't feel I would ever have to get into a pissing contest with anyone let alone God.

Well, people who reject Hebrew mythology aren't getting into a pissing context with any Gods. If anything at all they are getting into a pissing contest with the ancient male-chauvinistic Hebrews.

And yes, I would gladly get into a pissing contest with the ancient Hebrews and their mythology of an immoral male-chauvinistic God.

According to the Bible the ancient Hebrews treated their women like modern-day Taliban treat theirs. Do you support the moral values of the modern-day Tailiban? And if not, then why support that the ancient Hebrews spoke for God?

I am totally secure in my salvation. Nothing can separate me from the love of Christ.

Well you're the one who seems be so concerned that other people are going to fall through the cracks of the justice system of Christ.

And that's your insecurity, not anyone else's.

Paul said "Woe is unto me if I preach not the gospel." By the space of 3.5 years he ceased not to warn everyone night and day with tears. It sounds like he was concerned. he hated Christians and called them and insidious cult, but Jesus knock him off his high horse.

When Paul was Saul he was clearly a very deeply troubled man. That's pretty obvious. IMHO he most likely just had a nervous breakdown and the folklore of Christianity finally got to him. He clearly had extreme reasons to "repent" for his evil ways. If I had been as disgusting as Saul was before he became Paul I might have a nervous breakdown too.

Jesus spoke to him telling him the things he must do and suffer for His name's sake. Paul obeyed his heavenly vision. Without a vision the Bible states the people perish.

There you go saying the "bible states" again. Using the brainwashing mythology to support it's own brainwashing schemes.

Besides, should Paul have gone to Jesus and asked for forgiveness rather than Jesus intervening in his life.

Also, with Jesus, it can't have anything to "obedience". If men couldn't obey God who they are supposed to love with all their mind, heart, and soul, then why should they be suddenly able to obey Jesus?

It can't work like that. This is why Jesus can only save through GRACE, not by expecting people to OBEY him. That was the whole point to Jesus.

If you were capable of obeying God there would be no need for Jesus in this mythology. You could just obey God directly.

Besides, it's still God that you're supposed to love with all your mind, heart, and soul, not Jesus! You proclaim your love for Jesus, but all the while you hide in Jesus to avoid a God that you have already confessed terrifies you.

How can you claim to love a God who terrifies you and that you have to hide from in Jesus?

Love of Jesus is totally irrelevant in this religion. You're supposed to love God the Father with all your mind, heart and soul. Not Jesus.

Apparently you love Jesus because you see him as your "savior" from a God that you can't love.

God has given me a vision to share the gospel (good news). I am warned by Jesus that I must be wise as serpent but harmless as a dove and I am told that people will lash out at me. I am told not to cast my perils before swines and dogs.

We've been through this before.

It's only "Good News" if a person is already convinced that some terrible God is out to get them. Jesus would be "Good News" if you already believe that God is out to get you and that Jesus could protect you from this terrible God.

But the overall religion isn't "Good News" at all.

What would be "Good News" about a picture where we have fallen from grace from our creator and he's out to get us and in order to be "saved" from this terrible God we have to accept that his son had to be brutally beaten and crucified to pay for our sins.

That's "Good News"?

I'm sorry, but I've already told you before that would be the worse news I ever heard if it were true.

It's only "Good News" if you've already fell hook, line, and sinker, for the fables of an angry jealous God of Abraham in the first place. You'd have to be totally sold on that horror story before Jesus could be seen as "Good News".

I don't believe that about you; so i share. I refuse to judge you. I can see you as greater than myself

Share?

What in the world could you "share" with me about the Biblical stories? I've already read them, studied them, and debated them for decades. I know these stories inside out.

You're not spreading the "message of Jesus", instead you're just arguing with people who don't accept the same interpretations that you have accepted.

~~~~

I've pointed out before that even if I were to accept that Jesus was "The Christ" (which I don't), but even if I did accept that, there are still more than ample verses and statements in the Gospels that would suggest that not everyone would need to believe in Jesus or be required to repent, or anything.

Jesus said that if any man doesn't believe him or his words he would not judge that man for not believing.

It is stated in these scripture that all judgment has been given to the son and that the Father judgeth no man.

It further claimed that when people were denying Jesus, mocking him, physically beating him and had nailed him to a pole he cried out, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do".

Well, if Jesus is the ultimate judge then clearly he forgives people for not knowing what they do (based on WORDS from his own dying breath).

It's also absurd that he would ask the Father to forgive anyone since all judgment had supposedly been given to him and the Father judgeth no man anyway.

But the point is that even Jesus proclaimed that he would forgive people for not knowing what they do.

Well, if there's any TRUTH in the bible I certainly don't see it. Therefore if I do not believe that Jesus was the son of God and he actually was, I would then "Not know what I do" for not believing in him.

Add to this that he said he wouldn't judge people for not believing in him anyway, and there's no way that Jesus could condemn me. He would have to VIOLATE on HIS OWN WORDS.

This whole idea that Jesus is chomping at the bit to condemn people for not believing in him has been nothing but a Christian Lie from the get go.

The scriptures can't even be use to support this lie.

Jesus said otherwise. Jesus proclaimed that he would forgive people who know not what they do.

So a belief in Jesus cannot possibly be important because Jesus himself would need to be a liar for that to be the case.

These fables can't even be made to support what the Christians hold out "in Jesus' name".

It's baloney. The Christians are the ones who are attempting to make Jesus into a hateful monster. I don't see the hateful monster in Jesus even reading these fables as pure fairy tales. He just wasn't like that.

So you have nothing to "share" with me other than to try to convince me that Jesus is a hateful monster.

And you want to sell that to me as "Good News"?

Get real.

[Divine Insight]

I am told not to cast my perils before swines and dogs. I don't believe that about you; so i share. I refuse to judge you. I can see you as greater than myself

Listen to yourself here. Can you just stop and think about this one concept for a moment.

Here you are imagining a person as potentially being "worthy" of being "saved" and you somehow feel that it's up to you to play a role in helping to convince this person to become "saved" lest this otherwise "worthy" person should fall through the cracks of God's totally inept justice system.

Can you not see the folly in that line of thinking?

The salvation of any person cannot possibly depend upon your evangelism. For if it did, and you failed to get through to the other person, then you would have failed to save them. You would become the new "flaw" in God's justice system.

If God is supposed to be perfect and impossible of making mistakes, then God could never accidentally allow anyone to "fall through the cracks" of his justice system.

But that's precisely what you're suggesting could potentially happen if you don't evangelize to people.

The very concept of Evangelism is nothing more than a blatant display of a total lack of faith in God.

If God's justice system depends upon mortal evangelists, then it's necessarily flawed because mortals are flawed. And evangelists are mortals.

So by suggesting that evangelism could, in any way, play a role in God's system of justice is the same as demanding that God's justice system is necessarily imperfect and grossly flawed.

Christianity makes no sense on any level, no matter how you cut it.

It necessarily has to be a false man-made superstitious mythology that has no more merit than Greek Mythology (which was very similar by the way)

How much proof do you need before you see that you've been duped by the ancient Hebrews?

But don't feel bad about it, it's been the most successful brainwashing religion ever devised, billions of people have been duped. So you're far from being a lone victim.

[Burninglight]

Divine insight:
Sigh, look you have this way of making me feel really bad. You make me feel like I am a monster who believes in a monster. You also confuse me a little with your logic, because in some ways it makes sense, and that challenges my faith, but I believe in a supreme being who always was and always will be.

You believe this too. But check this out: The supreme being you believe in is not as powerful as the Hebrew God of the Bible. Why do I say that? Because, he doesn't have enough power to over ride the message that there is no other name given whereby we might be saved but the name of Jesus Christ. So we either accept Christ as our Lord and Saviour now, while we live or the Devil takes us when we die. Like Bob Dylan's song: "You're gonna have to serve somebody; it might the Devil it might be the Lord, but you're gonna have to serve somebody" You also give me the impression that this message irritates you.

You said you once tried to believe it. All I can say is try again!

[Divine Insight]

You said you once tried to believe it. All I can say is try again!

I think this is a bit of a misunderstanding.

I was BORN into the religion by family. My family believed in it, so I naturally accepted that my parents and the nice adult people and preachers knew what they were talking about.

So I 'believed' it in only from that perspective. Not because I had read the story and it thought it made sense.

On the contrary, I was simply taught that the Bible contains the infallible wisdom of God. Although there were already indications that even the preachers weren't all in agreement with precisely what the Bible had to say. Several of my uncles were preachers, and they used to invite other preachers to dinner, and after dinner they would sit around and discuss their differing views. It was clearly they weren't not in agreement. They didn't argue these disagreements in a hostile way, they were very polite in their disagreements, but none the less it was crystal clear that they held different views on various issues and question concerning what the Bible teaches.

And these guys were all from the SAME denomination of Christianity. At that young age it didn't even DAWN on me that there are so many conflicting Protestant denominations plus Catholicism, plus Judaism where Jesus isn't even recognized as the messiah or son of God.

And Islam was totally beyond my knowledge at that time. I had no clue the Islam was actually yet another offshoot of this same religion. And that it contains the same sort of split factions such as Sunnies and Shias or whatever they're called.

And totally forget about Eastern religions like Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism and so on. To me those were all just "Fruitcake stupidity" because I knew nothing of them and I was taught that they are all just "false religions" and I naively believed that utter nonsense.

So here I am going into the Bible very naively thinking that maybe I can make enough sense out of it to determine which of these protestant preachers in my little protestant denomination might have it things right and who has it wrong.

So I went into the Bible under the belief that it really was going to make sense and clear things up with it's totally perfect and infallible scriptures.

What happen should be obvious. The more I read the more absurd, unclear, contradicting and utterly idiotic the biblical fables truly are. There's no infallible truths in the Bible. All that exists in the Bible is a bunch of fables that truly have no more merit than the fables of Greek Mythology.

You have a God cursing serpents to crawl on their bellies and eat dirt. And cursing women to have sorrowful conception and childbirth. All the while demanding that everyone love him with all their mind, heart, and soul etc.

It just kept moving from absurd to wildly insane the more I read it.

Here I started out thinking the bible would clear things up and it just went from mildly confusing to impossibly stupid.

As I matured I finally learned that even Isaac Newton came to the same conclusions as me. At least insofar as the idea that Jesus could not have possibly been the sacrificial lamb of the God of Abraham. Even if you accept that the God of Abraham could be that obnoxious things still don't add up.

And I agree with the Jews too. Jesus couldn't possible have been the predicted messiah because he was never handed the throne of King David. That was an absolute must in the prophecy. The Christians claim that Jesus "Will be King when He returns!". But that's not prophecy being fulfilled, that's just wishful thinking that maybe someday it could be fulfilled in the far future. That's ridiculous.

I've gone over the biblical scenario countless times trying to imagine every possible "Excuse" for it that I could muster. There's no way that it can be made to work as the divine plan of a supposedly sane supreme being.

The supreme God in these stories would need to be totally insane, and even sadistic and quite evil just to twist them into anything that could remotely be plausible.

I mean how far does a person need to bend over backwards to justified fables that proclaim that we have fallen from grace from our creator and he had to have his own crucified on a pole to pay for our sins?

There has to come a point when you need to STOP and ask yourself, "Why the heck am I trying so hard to justify these insane stories just so I can believe that I'm in the dog house with my creator and he had to have his only begotten son nailed to a pole to pay for my disgusting unworthiness"

And you're going to believe that on PURE FAITH, whilst making excuse after excuse after excuse for all the absurdities in these stories.

Why?

Why bend over backwards to try to justify stories that demand that you are totally unworthy of your creator's love and you're so disgusting that he had to have his son crucified to pay for you disgusting unworthiness?

How does that even begin to make any sense?

After a while I started to realize that pure ATHEISM would be a far healthier and more sane picture of reality. Just play old dying seems like PARADISE in comparison with this biblical insanity.

What's left for a REASON to continue to pursue it?

It's not worthy of FAITH.

Pure atheism is a prettier picture.

The only reason left to continue to believe in it is FEAR.

PURE FEAR

Fear that if it should happen to be true you'll be cast intol eternal damnation for having refused to believe it.

Precisely what the Hebrews hope you would fall prey too.

The FEAR TACTIC

Well, I'll tell you what Burninglight. I'm not afraid of those ancient male-chauvinistic Hebrews. And their ignorant fictitious religion isn't going to send me cowering down to support and pass on their ignorant brainwashing scheme.

It's a lie. It's a collection of fictitious fables that have absolutely no more to do with God that the Greek fables of Zeus had to do with God.

If there is a spiritual essence to reality it's far more likely to be as some of the Eastern Mystics believe and philosophize about.

So if you want to believe in a spiritual essence to reality there are FAR BETTER pictures than those of the ancient Hebrews. And you won't need to believe that you're in the dog house with your creator and so despicable that you could never be worthy of God's love on your own merit.

No need to be "hiding in Christ" from a terrible God who would otherwise cast you into a fiery furnace like Adolf Hitler.

If a "God" exists it's not the insane boogieman that the Hebrews created in their insane mythology.

And even if such a "God" did exist would there even be any justice in calling it a "God". Wouldn't the term Demon be far more fitting?

The ancient Hebrews have you running scared from their God even after thousands of years have passed. That's a true testament to the power of their fear tactics and the success of their fables to instill that kind of fear in so many people.

But there has to come a time when we start to wake up and realize that we've been duped by a bunch of ignorant male-chauvinistic pigs who claimed that they "Speak for God".

How big of suckers have we been for the past thousands of years?

The time has come to call their bluff.

There is no insane God who will hate you if you fail to love him.

And there never was.

[Divine Insight]

So we either accept Christ as our Lord and Saviour now, while we live or the Devil takes us when we die. Like Bob Dylan's song: "You're gonna have to serve somebody; it might the Devil it might be the Lord, but you're gonna have to serve somebody" You also give me the impression that this message irritates you.

Of course that message "irritates" me. Because it's a lie.

Who made it up?

Ancient male-chauvinists. Who preach hatred in the name of God toward anyone who doesn't bow down and worship THEIR RELIGION as the "Word of God".

That is the most arrogant selfish and ignorant religion that any culture ever created.

Sure it irritates me. This religion has been used to belittle and degrade people who refuse to swallow its lies for thousands of years.

It incited people to burn thousands of innocent midwives ALIVE on a stake after having tortured them horrendously both physically and emotionally.

I can just imagine my sweet loving mother having been charged as a "Witch" and tortured and burned alive by religious FOOLS.

Yes, it "irritates" me.

It's also been used all throughout history to hold back the progress of science and used ridicule the most intelligent minds of humanity.

And it's still being used for that purpose today! People are still using it today to try to belittle the scientific discovery and knowledge of evolution in favor of teaching more of these utterly stupid superstitious lies and bigotry in the "the name of God" or in "Jesus' name".

Yes, it "irritates" me.

People continue to use it today to belittle and berate same gender lovers in the name of Jesus as "The Christ". And so because of this superstitious nonsense same gender lovers suffer emotional pain and loss of dignity.

Yes, it "irritates" me.

It irritates me to see the Christians and Muslims preparing for an all-out proselytizing war that's bound to come to a violent head eventually.

And they even act like all the "by-standers" on this planet (i.e. the atheists and non-Abrahamic religions don't even COUNT for anything)

Yes, it "irritates" me.

It irritates me to see atheists belittled and berated for simply not believing in a God.

Yes, it "irritates" me.

It irritates me to see suicide bombers blowing people up in the name of Allah (it's the same religion really!)

You may not realize it but when you support Christianity you're simultaneously helping to convince Muslims that Islam must have merit too then! Because they realize that ultimately your supporting the FOUNDATIONS of their religion too, and you merely "Got off track yourself" with Jesus.

So when you support any of the Abrahamic religion you're basically contributing to the whole shebang.

Yes, it "irritates" me.

It irritates me that people like the Taliban are STILL living by the same stupid male-chauvinistic superstitions that the ancient Hebrews lived by. And like I say, to even support Christianity loans the Taliban SUPPORT too because again, you're basically supporting the same religious foundational myths.

So Yes, it "irritates" me. Very much.

Just like Cancer "irritates" a doctor.

To me the Abrahamic religions are a spiritual Cancer on humanity.

So Yes, it "irritates" me to see it proselytized, evangelized or supported in any way.

Absolutely.

I confess that it irritates me.

[Burninglight]

So we either accept Christ as our Lord and Saviour now, while we live or the Devil takes us when we die. Like Bob Dylan's song: "You're gonna have to serve somebody; it might the Devil it might be the Lord, but you're gonna have to serve somebody" You also give me the impression that this message irritates you.

Of course that message "irritates" me. Because it's a lie.

Who made it up?

Ancient male-chauvinists. Who preach hatred in the name of God toward anyone who doesn't bow down and worship THEIR RELIGION as the "Word of God".

That is the most arrogant selfish and ignorant religion that any culture ever created.

Sure it irritates me. This religion has been used to belittle and degrade people who refuse to swallow its lies for thousands of years.

It incited people to burn thousands of innocent midwives ALIVE on a stake after having tortured them horrendously both physically and emotionally.

I can just imagine my sweet loving mother having been charged as a "Witch" and tortured and burned alive by religious FOOLS.

Yes, it "irritates" me.

It's also been used all throughout history to hold back the progress of science and used ridicule the most intelligent minds of humanity.

And it's still being used for that purpose today! People are still using it today to try to belittle the scientific discovery and knowledge of evolution in favor of teaching more of these utterly stupid superstitious lies and bigotry in the "the name of God" or in "Jesus' name".

Yes, it "irritates" me.

People continue to use it today to belittle and berate same gender lovers in the name of Jesus as "The Christ". And so because of this superstitious nonsense same gender lovers suffer emotional pain and loss of dignity.

Yes, it "irritates" me.

It irritates me to see the Christians and Muslims preparing for an all-out proselytizing war that's bound to come to a violent head eventually.

And they even act like all the "by-standers" on this planet (i.e. the atheists and non-Abrahamic religions don't even COUNT for anything)

Yes, it "irritates" me.

It irritates me to see atheists belittled and berated for simply not believing in a God.

Yes, it "irritates" me.

It irritates me to see suicide bombers blowing people up in the name of Allah (it's the same religion really!)

You may not realize it but when you support Christianity you're simultaneously helping to convince Muslims that Islam must have merit too then! Because they realize that ultimately your supporting the FOUNDATIONS of their religion too, and you merely "Got off track yourself" with Jesus.

So when you support any of the Abrahamic religion you're basically contributing to the whole shebang.

Yes, it "irritates" me.

It irritates me that people like the Taliban are STILL living by the same stupid male-chauvinistic superstitions that the ancient Hebrews lived by. And like I say, to even support Christianity loans the Taliban SUPPORT too because again, you're basically supporting the same religious foundational myths.

So Yes, it "irritates" me. Very much.

Just like Cancer "irritates" a doctor.

To me the Abrahamic religions are a spiritual Cancer on humanity.

So Yes, it "irritates" me to see it proselytized, evangelized or supported in any way.

Absolutely.

I confess that it irritates me.

I think I got your point loud and clear, and I agree that there were many religious fools that did such things, but a true Christian would be irritated just like you about the ignorance and blatant evil perpetrated in the name of Christ.

What irritates me is that people blame or make true Biblical Christianity the brunt end of all the evil done in its name. The Bible teaches love your enemies not torture and kill them. God is the one who judges; we are taught not to judge.

Jesus spoke of hell as often as he did of heaven. He mostly condemned the religious spirited people you speak of, but it irritates me when nonbelievers lump us and categorize us in one lump indiscriminately. I don't see that as any less evil then the religious fools you speak of. As Jesus said, "They hate me without a cause"