Questions for the LDS

[southern cross]

Mormons (if this term offends, please let me know) believe that all of us, as souls, chose to be born on earth and experience the trials and tribulations associated with that decision.
Is this true?
Where were our souls when this question was posed?
Was this question posed by god?
Were we in the presence of god at the time?
Was there an alternative?
Are all unborn souls still residing wherever this was?
Is there a finite number of souls, or are more being created?
Is it only Mormons who achieve heaven?
Thank you in advance.

[otseng]

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[help3434]

[Replying to post 25 by southern cross]

According to Mormon Theology everyone existed before the world was created. One Third rebelled against God with Satan. They are the ones that will never get a body on earth and are cast out forever. When I was a believing Mormon this is something that bugged me about our theology. I was proud that it was very rare for someone on Earth to be cast into outer darkness, but then I realized that according to doctrine 1/3 of all of God's children were doomed to hell forever because of one bad decision they made.

[dianaiad]

[Replying to post 25 by southern cross]

According to Mormon Theology everyone existed before the world was created. One Third rebelled against God with Satan. They are the ones that will never get a body on earth and are cast out forever. When I was a believing Mormon this is something that bugged me about our theology. I was proud that it was very rare for someone on Earth to be cast into outer darkness, but then I realized that according to doctrine 1/3 of all of God's children were doomed to hell forever because of one bad decision they made.

Why would that bug you? Their decision was made in full knowledge of the consequences of it. If there was ever any decision that was a matter of 'informed consent,' THAT one was! They were not 'doomed to hell,' (where "doomed" means...something forcing them, or something fated), but rather, they took one look at the process awaiting the rest of us and said "nuh, uh, no way Jose', you ain't gettin' ME down there" and went a different direction.

Their choice. Just as you seem to be wishing you had made the same one they did, with your idea that somehow they had nothing to do with their own decisions.

You were 'proud,' were you, that so few people will 'qualify' for outer darkness? Good for you. But decisions/choices have consequences....and most of us are not in a position to see ALL the consequences of most of the life changing decisions we make, both intended and unintended. We are held accountable for them anyway, and experience those consequences anyway, aren't we?

Yet in LDS theology, we have a group of people who did indeed know what those consequences were; this wasn't a case of "one bad decision." This was a conscious choosing of those consequences. THEIR choice, not their 'doom.'

Just because you are now wishing you had chosen as they did (their position was, after all...and according to the theology...very similar to the position of the 'God is evil if anything bad happens to any of us in any way' anti-theists), doesn't mean that their choices were not absolutely freely, and in full knowledge of what they were choosing, made.

[help3434]

Why would that bug you? Their decision was made in full knowledge of the consequences of it. If there was ever any decision that was a matter of 'informed consent,' THAT one was! They were not 'doomed to hell,' (where "doomed" means...something forcing them, or something fated), but rather, they took one look at the process awaiting the rest of us and said "nuh, uh, no way Jose', you ain't gettin' ME down there" and went a different direction.

Their choice. Just as you seem to be wishing you had made the same one they did, with your idea that somehow they had nothing to do with their own decisions.

You were 'proud,' were you, that so few people will 'qualify' for outer darkness? Good for you. But decisions/choices have consequences....and most of us are not in a position to see ALL the consequences of most of the life changing decisions we make, both intended and unintended. We are held accountable for them anyway, and experience those consequences anyway, aren't we?

Yet in LDS theology, we have a group of people who did indeed know what those consequences were; this wasn't a case of "one bad decision." This was a conscious choosing of those consequences. THEIR choice, not their 'doom.'

Just because you are now wishing you had chosen as they did (their position was, after all...and according to the theology...very similar to the position of the 'God is evil if anything bad happens to any of us in any way' anti-theists), doesn't mean that their choices were not absolutely freely, and in full knowledge of what they were choosing, made.

What do mean I seem to be wishing I made the same choice they did? I think you have me mixed up with someone else. "Proud" is probably not the right word. I meant that I felt it made more sense than believing as other Christians that most people go to hell. But LDS doctrine teaches that 1/3 of all of God's children are cast out forever. Eternal consequences for one decision is disproportionate.

[dianaiad]

Why would that bug you? Their decision was made in full knowledge of the consequences of it. If there was ever any decision that was a matter of 'informed consent,' THAT one was! They were not 'doomed to hell,' (where "doomed" means...something forcing them, or something fated), but rather, they took one look at the process awaiting the rest of us and said "nuh, uh, no way Jose', you ain't gettin' ME down there" and went a different direction.

Their choice. Just as you seem to be wishing you had made the same one they did, with your idea that somehow they had nothing to do with their own decisions.

You were 'proud,' were you, that so few people will 'qualify' for outer darkness? Good for you. But decisions/choices have consequences....and most of us are not in a position to see ALL the consequences of most of the life changing decisions we make, both intended and unintended. We are held accountable for them anyway, and experience those consequences anyway, aren't we?

Yet in LDS theology, we have a group of people who did indeed know what those consequences were; this wasn't a case of "one bad decision." This was a conscious choosing of those consequences. THEIR choice, not their 'doom.'

Just because you are now wishing you had chosen as they did (their position was, after all...and according to the theology...very similar to the position of the 'God is evil if anything bad happens to any of us in any way' anti-theists), doesn't mean that their choices were not absolutely freely, and in full knowledge of what they were choosing, made.

What do mean I seem to be wishing I made the same choice they did? I think you have me mixed up with someone else. "Proud" is probably not the right word. I meant that I felt it made more sense than believing as other Christians that most people go to hell. But LDS doctrine teaches that 1/3 of all of God's children are cast out forever. Eternal consequences for one decision is disproportionate.

YTry reading the post. It wasn't 'eternal consequences for one decision." That wasn't one impulsive decision made on the spur of the moment. That was a long process and a self directed walk. They were not 'cast out.' They went all by themselves, exactly the way we have been taught that those who choose 'outer darkness' do now. THEIR choice. Not cast out...but a turning of the back.

'Cast out,' remember, assumes that the one being cast down DOESN'T WANT TO GO. In this case, they are the ones who chose. They are the ones who 'went,' and God simply did not make them come to earth. Their choice; not a casting out, but a 'choosing not to go."

You need to figure out the difference.....and you sound like that old joke regarding the guy accused of murdering his parents who asked for mercy from the court because he was an orphan.

Or perhaps, more analogous....the kid who stole his father's credit card and bought thousands of bucks worth of stuff, got into drugs, ran away to the other side of the country, got himself in trouble, and then, when he was finally arrested, cried about how he was thrown out of his house because of 'one bad decision!"

Like the above kid, that 1/3 wasn't "thrown out" in the first place, and in the second, it wasn't 'one bad decision." THEY are the ones who walked out. What, you think God should have stopped 'em?

[help3434]

Why would that bug you? Their decision was made in full knowledge of the consequences of it. If there was ever any decision that was a matter of 'informed consent,' THAT one was! They were not 'doomed to hell,' (where "doomed" means...something forcing them, or something fated), but rather, they took one look at the process awaiting the rest of us and said "nuh, uh, no way Jose', you ain't gettin' ME down there" and went a different direction.

Their choice. Just as you seem to be wishing you had made the same one they did, with your idea that somehow they had nothing to do with their own decisions.

You were 'proud,' were you, that so few people will 'qualify' for outer darkness? Good for you. But decisions/choices have consequences....and most of us are not in a position to see ALL the consequences of most of the life changing decisions we make, both intended and unintended. We are held accountable for them anyway, and experience those consequences anyway, aren't we?

Yet in LDS theology, we have a group of people who did indeed know what those consequences were; this wasn't a case of "one bad decision." This was a conscious choosing of those consequences. THEIR choice, not their 'doom.'

Just because you are now wishing you had chosen as they did (their position was, after all...and according to the theology...very similar to the position of the 'God is evil if anything bad happens to any of us in any way' anti-theists), doesn't mean that their choices were not absolutely freely, and in full knowledge of what they were choosing, made.

What do mean I seem to be wishing I made the same choice they did? I think you have me mixed up with someone else. "Proud" is probably not the right word. I meant that I felt it made more sense than believing as other Christians that most people go to hell. But LDS doctrine teaches that 1/3 of all of God's children are cast out forever. Eternal consequences for one decision is disproportionate.

YTry reading the post. It wasn't 'eternal consequences for one decision." That wasn't one impulsive decision made on the spur of the moment. That was a long process and a self directed walk. They were not 'cast out.' They went all by themselves, exactly the way we have been taught that those who choose 'outer darkness' do now. THEIR choice. Not cast out...but a turning of the back.

'Cast out,' remember, assumes that the one being cast down DOESN'T WANT TO GO. In this case, they are the ones who chose. They are the ones who 'went,' and God simply did not make them come to earth. Their choice; not a casting out, but a 'choosing not to go."

You need to figure out the difference.....and you sound like that old joke regarding the guy accused of murdering his parents who asked for mercy from the court because he was an orphan.

Or perhaps, more analogous....the kid who stole his father's credit card and bought thousands of bucks worth of stuff, got into drugs, ran away to the other side of the country, got himself in trouble, and then, when he was finally arrested, cried about how he was thrown out of his house because of 'one bad decision!"

Like the above kid, that 1/3 wasn't "thrown out" in the first place, and in the second, it wasn't 'one bad decision." THEY are the ones who walked out. What, you think God should have stopped 'em?

Doctrine and Covenants 29:37 says that they were thrust down and became the devil and his angels. Revelation 12:9 says that they were cast out. Can they ever come back? Why can't they at least get a Telestial glory? Remember, if the story is true we are talking about a group larger than than the current population of Earth. Even if it was a "long process and a self directed walk" don't you think leaving them in misery for a googolplex years is more than enough? Why does it have to be forever? The Jehovah's Witness doctrine that the evil will simply be wiped out is much more benign. Unfortunately I believe that the reality is that everyone will be wiped out.

[help3434]

Is it only Mormons who achieve heaven?
Thank you in advance.

Mormons believe in different levels of heaven. If you were a good Mormon during your life then you get the highest level of heaven where you become godlike.

Other levels of heaven are for non mormons but supposedly even these levels of heaven are unimaginable better than the best earthly life has to offer.

Mormons believe that after you die you are taught and shown the truth of their beliefs. Only if you reject it in both your life and afterlife are you consigned to "the outer darkness" which is some type of vague but unpleasant place. Its quite difficult to get into.


Don't forget to ask about (1) the magic underwear and (2)the secret hand signs so you can get into heaven. (they aren't allowed to talk about the hand signs).

Have you heard of Baptism of the Dead? According to LDS doctrine you don't have to be Mormon in this life to make it to the Celestial Kingdom (the highest kingdom). Rejecting it doesn't mean being cast out to outer darkness, it just means going to a lower kingdom.

[dianaiad]

Doctrine and Covenants 29:37 says that they were thrust down and became the devil and his angels. Revelation 12:9 says that they were cast out. Can they ever come back?

I don't know. And neither do you. In fact, I dare you to find anywhere that says that they CAN NOT.

Do I think they will? Probably not. However, there is a difference between can not and will not.

Why can't they at least get a Telestial glory?

Because they chose not to do that which is required for a Telestial glory? That's like asking why the guy who chose not to go to school can't 'at least' be given a high school diploma.

Remember, if the story is true we are talking about a group larger than than the current population of Earth. Even if it was a "long process and a self directed walk" don't you think leaving them in misery for a googolplex years is more than enough?

Are they in misery? They must have seen some advantage to their choices. So many of 'em made it.

Why does it have to be forever? The Jehovah's Witness doctrine that the evil will simply be wiped out is much more benign. Unfortunately I believe that the reality is that everyone will be wiped out.

You believe as you wish, of course. I'm only reacting to a position I've never heard expressed before you.

I'm a teacher. Your position about this hits me like.....

I had a student who sat in my class all year. He didn't do any homework. He wouldn't participate in class. I had to confiscate THREE cellphones from him, since he was too busy playing games and texting on it to even pay attention to when the bell rang. He was a gang member, and insisted upon wearing gang regalia even when school rules forbade it. He was finally, at the end of the year, expelled from class for making a 'shiv' with a ball point pen and stabbing another student with it. The expulsion put him in an 'alternative' school with far stricter rules---but with all his gang members in it. He was quite happy with the change.

But his mother wasn't. She came storming into my classroom screaming at me for
throwing him out of school" because of "one bad decision," and that I had "ruined his life forever" because I was a racist and a bigot. Didn't get that last bit, mind you, given that the kid was a very large red head with eyes bluer than mine, but that's what she said.


You remind me of her, not in the manner and tone of your objection, but certainly in the illogic of your argument.

[help3434]

[Replying to post 38 by dianaiad]

Do you not understand the difference between earthly punishment and one that lasts forever? Of course as some one who is no longer a believer I no longer believe that anyone lives forever.

[scourge99]

Is it only Mormons who achieve heaven?
Thank you in advance.

Mormons believe in different levels of heaven. If you were a good Mormon during your life then you get the highest level of heaven where you become godlike.

Other levels of heaven are for non mormons but supposedly even these levels of heaven are unimaginable better than the best earthly life has to offer.

Mormons believe that after you die you are taught and shown the truth of their beliefs. Only if you reject it in both your life and afterlife are you consigned to "the outer darkness" which is some type of vague but unpleasant place. Its quite difficult to get into.


Don't forget to ask about (1) the magic underwear and (2)the secret hand signs so you can get into heaven. (they aren't allowed to talk about the hand signs).

Have you heard of Baptism of the Dead?

Yes. I've actually done it. Its really gross having to dig up stinky old corpses and submerge them in holy water (just kidding; its baptism by proxy if you didn't know, though you probably do: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_for_the_dead ).

According to LDS doctrine you don't have to be Mormon in this life to make it to the Celestial Kingdom (the highest kingdom). Rejecting it doesn't mean being cast out to outer darkness, it just means going to a lower kingdom.

Hmm, I'm not too sure. I know non-Mormons are offered a chance to get into the other Kingdoms of heaven after death but I thought i remember being taught that you had to live a "good Mormon mortal life" to get into the Celestial Kingdom. And that involves getting baptized, repenting, etc while you are alive. But maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps Dianaiad can confirm or deny?