Shouldn't the Christian Infighting be Over?

[POI]

1213 made an excellent point in post 556 of this thread (viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39327&start=550). He stated:

"People have enough understanding to get it and if someone thinks he doesn't have it, he can always ask wisdom from God to understand it correctly.".

Followed by the given Bible verse to back up his claim (i.e.):

But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach; and it will be given to him.
James 1:5

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Well, some here claim to have such communication with "the almighty."

For debate: If the above verse is true, as well as Christians whose claims also comport with the Biblical claim, then why do Christians not know some Biblical answers? Case/point, I recently asked about the topic of Genesis being literal, vs. not? The Christian, who answered thus far, claims (paraphrased) -- they cannot know for sure, because the author is dead. Why wouldn't this individual simply ask for wisdom, in accordance with the Bible's claim?

Reference (viewtopic.php?t=41373). Post #16.

[POI]

I was asking why you used the verse and whether you were using the verse as a literal of figurative device.

Then your questions were already answered in the original post.

Can you quote where that is please as on cursory scan, I I see the reason why you are using the verse, but cannot see where you say you are or are not using the verse literally or figuratively.

It's obvious myself, 1213, and Mea all view it as literal.

[William]

I was asking why you used the verse and whether you were using the verse as a literal of figurative device.

Then your questions were already answered in the original post.

Can you quote where that is please as on cursory scan, I I see the reason why you are using the verse, but cannot see where you say you are or are not using the verse literally or figuratively.

It's obvious myself, 1213, and Mea all view it as literal.

Okay - going along with that, is your overall concern whether or not to use the bible literally, or just this particular verse from the bible.
Re that, what about the particular verse convinces you that (if taken literally) this is some type of key to Christians getting on and agreeing together?

[POI]

Okay - going along with that, is your overall concern whether or not to use the bible literally, or just this particular verse from the bible.

My concern in this topic is to investigate what I asked in this topic. If the topic is not clear, please tell me where you are still not clear?

Re that, what about the particular verse convinces you that (if taken literally) this is some type of key to Christians getting on and agreeing together?

Because they all have a direct lifeline in which unbelievers do not have. You guys can all ask and would presumably get the same answer. But the fact that some of you might ask, and still get differing answers, is what raises my eyebrow

Case/point, 1213 and you likely do not agree. And I'm sure if many others engaged accordingly, per the advice of 1213, there would still be disagreement. This likely renders James 1 false.

So, if 1213 and you use the same tools, and get differing answers, while asking 'the father', then your tool is jacked. Try a different tool.

[Mae von H]

It isn't about irrelevant detail but basics; doctrine, eternal truths, what the Bible means or even says, basics.

The description of the flood is not basic. Do you know what we say are the basics?

Doesn't Jesusgod know the damage done and being done by doctrinal and sectarian quarrels and infighting?

Same as knows the damage done by Maixism, communism, atheism, and BLM. What do you expect Him to do?

Surely the fact that Believers don't agree shows Jesus is NOT communicating with them.

It’s clear THEY aren’t listening. Do not mix up failure to speak with failure to hear.

Your first response was strawmanning the problem so as to dismiss it.

Untrue

The second was smokescreening the problem so as to dismiss it, and the third was underlining and red -flagging the problem as well as could be hoped.

You’ve not demonstrated any of these claims.

Jesus is telling you the answer and you are right and anyone else is misguided, ignorant, not in contact with Jesus and you are. Close? Cigar?

Totally off. I said I know the answer by examining the evidence.

Examination of the evidence is not even a nice try.

You don’t even claim that the evidence has any impact.

I know from long and bitter experience that it means fiddling and selecting the 'evidence' to fit to what Faith tells the believer in their own Rightness.

Ah, then there’s no reason to present any to
you.

I know what the basic are - the claims of the Bible and whether they are true as regards science,logic and internal consistency. Denial is irrelevant.
Comparing the damage done by Christianity with that done by Communism does your cas no favors at all. I wouldlike to hear what damage atheism has caused. I notice you didn't point to the damage cause by Naziism. Wasn't that a problem too? Or by slavery, which is still endorsed by the Bible.

You are not the only one to imply that doctrinal dispute is explained by only One group hearing the truth and the rest being mistaken (if not deliberately trying to mislead the faithful). But it is opinion that one group have it right and all the others wrong. They could ALL have it wrong. In fact you can guarantee it because the Bible itself is wrong.

Maybe strawman wasn't the right term. Anyway "misinterpret what the Bible says, asking God for wisdom/knowledge/correction, not getting any" is biased because you claim they misinterpret. Maybe those who disagree with them are misinterpreting. In my experience Bible apologist not only misinterpret but deny the Bible says what it actually says. If then they ask for clarification and get nothing...that's game over and they can hardly be blamed for not getting an answer - which seems to be general as Bible apologists come up with such bad apologetics, they can hardly come from a god.

For the 2nd point I tried looking back and I don't know which post it was. Anyway, the red flag has been demonstrated even before you went on a rant about leftist politics, with talking about misinterpreting with red -flags someone who thinks Their interpretation is the right one. Red flags I have seen many times before. You are off because many theist apologists claim to 'examine the evidence' and it turns out to be fiddling and misrepresenting or even denying the evidence to suit their beliefs. So far I have seen an irrelevant attempt to excuse the damage done by Christianity (and other religions) by pointing to the damage done by political rather that religious dogmas. Doesn't get religion off the hook - they can all be dangerous dogmas, fingers itching to make their point by violence, like many a Maga supporter, hey? And you yourself have demonstrated the problem of pretence of one privileged bunch, touched by God, who can understand the bible and all the others don't. Me, you don't need, except to highlight the problems in your position and arguments.

Most atheists I’ve exchanged with eventually sink to an almost frothing at the mouth tirad lobbing one strawman after another. All being untrue, they miss the mark, but future exchanges are likely to be merely an opportunity for said atheist to release all that pent-up anger. I hope you one day find enough peace to be able to calmly discuss these matters.

Adieu Transponder

[Mae von H]

1) There is no promise for knowing the truth by merely asking. 2) I’ve know some who walked away from the faith and intellectual reasons were NEVER the reason although it sounded better than the truth.

1) Then James 1 is wrong. For the ones who do not doubt, receive 'wisdom'. Maybe you are a doubter too?

The promise is for WISDOM not truth. Jesus promises truth to those who OBEY Him, not merely ask.

2) Even IF you were right, do you admit your response swings BOTH directions?

Not at all. I know the difference between wisdom and truth. Do you?

Meaning, intellectual reasons is NEVER what makes one BECOME a believer? If so, then intellectual debate is useless, in any attempt to convert anyone -- (from one direction or the other).

Who said that? CS Lewis wrote that the intellectual path to God is fraught with danger but it is a path.

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(Mea) There are not a few scientists who became believers in the claims of Christ after researching real science after the undergraduate courses. I’ve read their accounts. Real science led them to God.

(POI) You missed my response entirely. Many, who are brought up as believers, later fall away, after taking science courses. My son is one of them. He was a true-blue believer who wanted some day to be a leader in some capacity. Maybe if he too was aware that Genesis and beyond were nowhere near as literal as it reads, he might still be a believer. I guess God's word was given haphazardly (as to so easily misinterpret Genesis and beyond), to cause even the earnest to so easily fall away.

Now you’ve touched something near and dear to my heart and I grieve for this. Very many youth fa away from the faith in college. Why? A few reasons but one is NO ONE IN CHURCH gives them INTELLECTUAL reasons for our faith. What is more, they aren’t warned against the misinformation taught at the undergrad level. Youth meetings are all pizza and games and adult church is all emotional experience. The youth are sent out totally defenseless.

(Mea) The Enemy posed a similar “test” and Jesus responded that we are not to test the Lord that way. Besides, if I were 100% accurate, you’d never surrender your life to Himbased on that flimsy test.

(POI) So now I'm 'the enemy'? Nice. I guess this is one way to avoid requests. I'm asking to be converted to your side. If you had any confidence/belief/trust, per James 1, I doubt you would resort to such excuses.

God doesn’t do parlor tricks. It’s useless to ask Him to perform for you so you’ll condescend to acknowledge He is there.

(Mea) I know Him and you don’t do you don’t understand what it is to try to deceive the Almighty. Besides you’d never make the major surrender of you life in that flimsy event.

(POI) How do you know? If you told me my age, weight, eye color, favorite food, the town/city I live in, and favorite music band, I would be floored. But you know you cannot. This begins to tell me you are likely not speaking to anyone other than yourself in prayer, which also states God will provide a response as requested. I doubt such a prayer request, done in earnest by a true believer, would go ignored.

Jesus was asked to do parlor tricks and refused. Being “floored” is not being converted. The cost of believing and surrender is so high, no parlor trick is going to convince you.

Which is why you offer flimsy excuses, in an attempt to mask the real reason He's is not going to answer. Which is, he's likely simply not really there to answer. Please remember, I reckon Jesus/God wants people to believe and worship him. Ignoring simple requests is not a logical or reasonable way to achieve his goal. Also see here...(viewtopic.php?t=40313)

If that comforts you, what shall I say?

(Mea) Sigh! Believers don’t ask God what to believe. Why can’t you remember this?

(POI) James 1 states that God gives wisdom.

You left out the requirements.

Having wisdom includes having knowledge.

Not connected at all. There are many very knowledgeable people who have no wisdom at all.

Knowing the correct answer to a topic is part of this... You have a lifeline in which unbelievers do not have. Why don't you use it?

I do use it which is why I don’t do parlor tricks.

Maybe because, deep down, you already realize you are obtaining all your "wisdom" on your own merits alone, with absolutely no help from any perceived external agency at all, (i.e.) Jesus/God? Maybe, deep down, you know James 1, as well as all the other verses about prayer, are nonsense? Which is why the debate will continue. You all come to your own conclusions alone, just like us atheists. With no help from the divine.

I am wise enough not to play your game as I’ve seen many believers do. But I ask Him, few do.

You folks have a direct lifeline to end all your infighting, and you guys do not utilize it?

They don’t ask because they’d have to give up comforting but false theology. Ignorance is bliss.

[1213]

...Of course that raises two problems, one is...how do we tell which is doing the wrecking?

Jesus says: From their fruits you shall know them. Matt. 7:16

One example of this is for example:

...Just as I have loved you, you also love one another. By this eve-ryone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
John 13:34-35

I know...in accordance with the Bible, but I argue that anyone who goes to church rather than going out and picking berries on the Sabbath is not doing God's will. The other problem is of course, the problem of evil. Given as an arguing point anyway, that God does not interfere with Free Will, why would he just allow people to pervert his word and mislead His faithful?

I think His word is not perverted, the pure message is still in the Bible.

[TRANSPONDER]

...Of course that raises two problems, one is...how do we tell which is doing the wrecking?

Jesus says: From their fruits you shall know them. Matt. 7:16

One example of this is for example:

...Just as I have loved you, you also love one another. By this eve-ryone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
John 13:34-35

I know...in accordance with the Bible, but I argue that anyone who goes to church rather than going out and picking berries on the Sabbath is not doing God's will. The other problem is of course, the problem of evil. Given as an arguing point anyway, that God does not interfere with Free Will, why would he just allow people to pervert his word and mislead His faithful?

I think His word is not perverted, the pure message is still in the Bible.

Then why the doctrinal disagreements, apart from infighting over other matters? Since you must think your 'take'is the one following the 'pure' message, and you argued wicked disinformation by others teaching different doctrines, it looks like you are saying that you are the only one that really knows what the Bible says, and I just now pointed out that, as I recall,you have been arguing that what it says isn't what it really means. Don't you think it's time you considered you might be doing it all wrong?

[POI]

Yet again, here is the entire claim, in full context. I've asked you, repeatedly, to point out where my interpretation is mistaken. And yet, all you state is essentially, nuh-huh: (i.e.):

"5 If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. 6 But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7 That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8 Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do."

******************************************

(Mea) The promise is for WISDOM not truth. Jesus promises truth to those who OBEY Him, not merely ask.

(POI) And as I've said, repeatedly, wisdom includes knowledge. Asking to clarify his message provides one with knowledge, which-in-turn, gives you wisdom. All you are doing, is playing an old apologetic's trick. You use wordplay to wiggle out of what the Bible is telling its readers.

Mea There are many very knowledgeable people who have no wisdom at all.

(POI) By using that logic, having wisdom means they may not have any knowledge at all.

(Mea) Not at all. I know the difference between wisdom and truth. Do you?

(POI) You missed my point. Do (unbelievers become believers) always due to reason and logic, or sometimes instead by emotion? If so, intellectual debate is of no use to change one's mind. You need to pray on their emotions.

(Mea) Now you’ve touched something near and dear to my heart and I grieve for this. Very many youth fa away from the faith in college. Why? A few reasons but one is NO ONE IN CHURCH gives them INTELLECTUAL reasons for our faith. What is more, they aren’t warned against the misinformation taught at the undergrad level. Youth meetings are all pizza and games and adult church is all emotional experience. The youth are sent out totally defenseless.

(POI) This demonstrates the infighting. The Protestant church he attended, while growing up, thinks Genesis is essentially literal. Meaning, the earth is 'young' (6 - 10k) years old, "Adam and Eve" were the first humans, the "flood account" was literal, as written, etc... The basic physical sciences contest that all over the place. Most of the church is in direct science denial. Many of these folks also claim to receive their knowledge and wisdom from the almighty, via James 1 and other verses in prayer. Why wouldn't God give them 'better' wisdom/knowledge?

On another side note, in that same church, I knew a pastor who claimed the opposite about Genesis, that the claimed physical events were still literal, but was instead an 'old-earther.' And he was a "hermeneutic scholar". I once asked if I could talk to both him and the other pastor who was instead a young-earther, and he stated "I do not want to invite discord." I guess even church leaders are NOT after "truth."

(Mea) God doesn’t do parlor tricks. It’s useless to ask Him to perform for you so you’ll condescend to acknowledge He is there.

(POI) Right. Jesus is not a genie in a bottle Respectfully, all I'm reading is more excuses. Then instead ask for him to contact me. Does God answer your prayers, or not? A fellow interlocutor is asking for help. You claim to have direct access. Please simply read the original post in this thread to explain why, if you are interested (viewtopic.php?t=40313&start=230). Feel free to respond to that thread instead of this one here, if desired.

(Mea) If that comforts you, what shall I say?

(POI) The only response which would 'comfort' me, is if you pray for Jesus to either reach me directly, or prove he speaks to you, using the simple/basic aforementioned way. Your continued pushback tells me, instead, that you are unwilling to demonstrate. Likely because you subconsciously already know it's bologna to think a postmortem Jesus is responding and answering any human requests.

(Mea) You left out the requirements.

(POI) I did no such thing. See the top, for the full context of James 1. --> "you must believe and not doubt". Subconsciously, you doubt.

(Mea) They don’t ask because they’d have to give up comforting but false theology. Ignorance is bliss.

(POI) I explained above, they do ask, but get DIFFERING responses. Probably because they are all in self-deception, which likely includes yourself.

[boatsnguitars]

1213 made an excellent point in post 556 of this thread (viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39327&start=550). He stated:

"People have enough understanding to get it and if someone thinks he doesn't have it, he can always ask wisdom from God to understand it correctly.".

Followed by the given Bible verse to back up his claim (i.e.):

But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach; and it will be given to him.
James 1:5

******************

Well, some here claim to have such communication with "the almighty."

For debate: If the above verse is true, as well as Christians whose claims also comport with the Biblical claim, then why do Christians not know some Biblical answers? Case/point, I recently asked about the topic of Genesis being literal, vs. not? The Christian, who answered thus far, claims (paraphrased) -- they cannot know for sure, because the author is dead. Why wouldn't this individual simply ask for wisdom, in accordance with the Bible's claim?

Reference (viewtopic.php?t=41373). Post #16.

There are conditions for getting wisdom and understanding. “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.” Not many ask God for either, few claim to have heard God and pride is promoted in churches today.

Great response. it shows how the infighting will never end because Christians are always ready to judge and blame everyone else but themselves.

[POI]

1213 made an excellent point in post 556 of this thread (viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39327&start=550). He stated:

"People have enough understanding to get it and if someone thinks he doesn't have it, he can always ask wisdom from God to understand it correctly.".

Followed by the given Bible verse to back up his claim (i.e.):

But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach; and it will be given to him.
James 1:5

******************

Well, some here claim to have such communication with "the almighty."

For debate: If the above verse is true, as well as Christians whose claims also comport with the Biblical claim, then why do Christians not know some Biblical answers? Case/point, I recently asked about the topic of Genesis being literal, vs. not? The Christian, who answered thus far, claims (paraphrased) -- they cannot know for sure, because the author is dead. Why wouldn't this individual simply ask for wisdom, in accordance with the Bible's claim?

Reference (viewtopic.php?t=41373). Post #16.

There are conditions for getting wisdom and understanding. “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.” Not many ask God for either, few claim to have heard God and pride is promoted in churches today.

Great response. it shows how the infighting will never end because Christians are always ready to judge and blame everyone else but themselves.

Another great response:

Christian infighting will never be over. Everybody believes they have the truth even though everyone's truth is different. Christianity is the most divided religion on earth. Sad but true.