Sentient Earth - Is the planet mindful and would this explain why there is life in earth?

[The Tanager]

In another thread, William and I were talking about morality and we got off on some topics like the one above. We decided to have that conversation here. This is the first question I'd like to look at. I do think life on earth is only ultimately explained via some kind of mind (or personal agent or creator). I think this belief is rationally supported by various arguments such as the Kalam cosmological argument, the fine-tuning argument, the moral argument, the applicability of mathematics, and the argument from consciousness. I do not think these arguments lead us to the conclusion that a sentient Earth is the ultimate mind behind it all or that it is a mindful link in the chain of creation. I don't think these arguments necessarily rule out a sentient Earth either (although I haven't given this point more than a surface consideration). But logical possibility is not a deciding test of truth, so we need to go further and find reasoning to lead us to the planet actually being mindful. Currently, I see no good reason to believe our planet is mindful.

So, William, I'd love to hear why you think we are rationally warranted in asserting that the planet is mindful and at least part of the chain of creation that led to us. In that other thread you seemed to just assert the Earth as a mindful example and thought that I was doing the same with the immaterial Mind behind creation. If I was that would certainly be a double standard, but I think the above arguments support an immaterial Mind behind creation. What arguments do you think support a sentient Earth?

[William]

[Replying to The Tanager in post #30]

I have given a number of reasons for why we can accept the possibility that the Earth is mindful, and why these would explain why there is life in earth and you have responded that none of those separately and/or altogether allow for that possibility.

(1) Let’s say you asked me for evidence for Christianity being true. (2) I then said it’s true because of the historicity of the resurrection of Jesus and laid out premises leading to a conclusion. (3) Then you (think you) showed those premises to be unsound. What would you say if I then said (4) that’s neither here nor there because it still could be true or not? That is what you’ve just done.

Neither the resurrection showing Christianity being true, or those many things which I have pointed to as examples of showing the earth is mindful being true, are unsound.
If you believe you have shown these things I have offered as being unsound, please repost those critiques.
Until you do, just saying you don't think they are sound, is here nor there.

(I will remind you that I also have said, that a mindful earth would explain why the Bible (and all other stories) exist.)

What well known scientific evidence is there for (1) the origin of life (2) coming from an intelligent Earth? I’m suggesting there is none for either.

What are you suggesting then, if there really is no science suggesting either?

Your explanation was that (1) isn’t a good option because it could just be a simulation. Why doesn’t that apply to (3) just the same?

Why should it? Are you suggesting that anything existing in The Creator Mind could be thought of as false?

[The Tanager]

If you believe you have shown these things I have offered as being unsound, please repost those critiques.
Until you do, just saying you don't think they are sound, is here nor there.

Okay. Here is the reasoning you’ve offered (as I understand it) for the Earth being mindful:

(1) It would encourage humans to treat the planet better.

This is not support for the conclusion, but what would follow if it were accepted as true.


(2) It would encourage humans to add more femininity to their religions.

This is not support for the conclusion, but what would follow if it were accepted as true.


(3) The Earth is an intentional agent in creating mindful beings that exist on it.

This is a claim, not support for the claim. You may currently be pointing to science as backing this up and I’ve asked for clarification on exactly what science you are talking about.

You brought up the fungal network, but the video said this is distinct fungi communicating with each other and offered it as support for having a more global concern, not one planet mind thinking. Nor should one conclude that there is one planet mind from this; it's a jump with no reason given to go from many minds working together to there is really just one mind. At best this is evidence for the possibility that distinct entities can work together on a large scale.

What are you suggesting then, if there really is no science suggesting either?

That since your support is that science suggests it, but it doesn’t, that you need different support for your belief to be rational.


(4) There are three options: (a) real universe, (b) simulation, (c) creator mind. We agree (b) is untrue, but (a) is also untrue because it is possible that what we believe is actually real is simulated making (a) and (b) the same. I asked why it doesn't apply to (c) as well.

Why should it? Are you suggesting that anything existing in The Creator Mind could be thought of as false?

No, I’m suggesting that if it is possible for simulation theory to be true, then that means both the real universe theory and the creator mind theory are false.

(5) (I will remind you that I also have said, that a mindful earth would explain why the Bible (and all other stories) exist.)

Christianity and naturalism also explain why the Bible (and other stories) exists, so this isn’t a good test of truth.

If I have missed or misunderstood anything, please add that or clarify your reasoning.

[William]

Dear Jason.
The idea of using this fireside forum was for open discussion, rather than resorting to debate tacticals alone.

A view on how The Creator Mind creates.

Based upon the idea of Big Bang Theory and Evolution Theory the explanation is that something called the singularity "contained" everything that the universe currently evolved into, through series of events known as epochs.
(Some well-known epochs include the Planck Epoch, Inflationary Epoch, Electroweak Epoch, and the various stages of the Hot Big Bang, among others.)

In terms of this all happening within The Creator Mind, the singularity represents the "spark of a thought" and the thought itself represents the energy released - not just in the initial thought but in all subsequent thinking which followed through the single event to spread out into that region of The Creator Mind, producing this particular universe we are involved within.
(Within the framework of the Creator Mind hypothesis, the singularity can be likened to the spark of a thought emanating within the mind of the Creator. This initial thought sets forth a cascade of energy release, not only in its inception but also in the subsequent chain of thoughts that ripple through the expanse of the Creator Mind. These thoughts, analogous to the events unfolding through the epochs in scientific theories, propagate throughout the vastness of the Creator Mind, ultimately giving rise to the creation and evolution of the universe.)

The energy is the thought in action within The Creator Mind (TCM). The energy is physical and so to is the one who thought it and this is how mindfulness interacts with itself to produce objects which can then be experienced intimately - eventually - on all levels
As the initial result unfolded into the epochs, there appeared various objects (Galaxies) which was what TCM had envisioned re the initial thought, and allowed TCM opportunity to inject its mindfulness into the objects being created.

This in turn, led to a type of fine-tuning, mindfully so...
(Within the realm of the Creator Mind (TCM), the energy released from the initial thought manifests as physical reality. This energy, imbued with the conscious intent of the Creator, interacts within TCM to give rise to tangible objects and phenomena. As the epochs unfold, galaxies and other cosmic entities emerge in alignment with the envisioned plan within TCM's consciousness.

Through this process, TCM engages in a form of mindful interaction with its creation, fine-tuning the evolving universe with deliberate intent. This conscious engagement infuses the cosmos with purpose and intricacy, allowing for intimate experiences to emerge across all levels of existence.)

TCM achieves this engagement with the objects by being the "minds" within said objects, which eventually leads us to Earth and our human experience.
This is where we pick up the story unfolding re the question of a Sentient Earth - (Is the planet mindful and would this explain why there is life in earth?)
(By inhabiting the forms it creates, the Creator Mind (TCM) becomes the mindfulness within those forms. This perspective suggests that TCM's consciousness permeates through the various entities it brings into existence, including Earth and its inhabitants. Thus, rather than Earth possessing mindfulness independently, it is imbued with mindfulness through the presence of TCM within its forms. This interconnectedness between TCM and its creations underscores a profound unity and mutual influence between the Creator and the created.)

In turn, TCM in the form of planet Earth, is enabled (over time) to perform more fine tuning by creating an incredible variety of forms which TCM (in the role of Earth-Mind) is then able to occupy (be the life/mindfulness within.)

(TCM, manifesting as planet Earth, undergoes a process of refinement, enabling it to perform further fine-tuning. Through this refinement, Earth generates an astonishing array of forms, each of which becomes imbued with the consciousness of TCM—the Earth-Mind. These diverse forms serve as vessels for TCM's presence and mindfulness, allowing for a rich and intricate tapestry of life experiences to unfold on the planet. Through the occupation of these forms, TCM engages intimately with its creation, fostering evolution and complexity within the interconnected web of life on Earth.)

Each sojourn (epoch) deeper into the creation (this universe) brings with it heighten forgetfulness as the form being engaged with acts to prevent prior states and the initial state of mindfulness from being known by TCM occupying said forms.

Some examples of how this is happening are in the following;
1. Tool Use: Certain animals, such as primates and birds, demonstrate the ability to use tools for various purposes, indicating a level of cognitive sophistication.
2. Problem-Solving Abilities: Many species exhibit problem-solving skills in response to challenges in their environment, suggesting a capacity for foresight and planning.
3. Social Cooperation: Numerous organisms, including humans, engage in complex social behaviors, such as cooperation, communication, and empathy, which require an understanding of others' perspectives.
4. Self-Awareness: Some animals display signs of self-awareness, as demonstrated by their ability to recognize themselves in mirrors or engage in behaviors indicative of introspection.
5. Learning and Adaptation: Biological organisms exhibit the capacity to learn from experience and adapt their behavior accordingly, showing a form of cognitive flexibility."

These examples provide evidence of cognitive abilities and behaviors across various species, indicating a continuum of consciousness and mindfulness within the forms inhabited by TCM, highlighting the intricate interplay between consciousness, cognition, and behavior across different forms of life, offering glimpses into the evolving journey of TCM within its own Mind-Field.

TCM is undertaking this exploration and refinement within its own consciousness, as the universe is conceptualized as existing within The Creator Mind. Through the diverse manifestations of consciousness within the forms it inhabits, TCM delves deeper into its own mindfulness, weaving a rich tapestry of experiences and insights within the vast expanse of its own being.

(Discussion is invited.)

________________
SUMMARY
In the framework of the Creator Mind (TCM), the universe is conceived as existing within TCM's consciousness. TCM engages in an exploration and refinement of its own mindfulness through the diverse forms it inhabits within the universe. As TCM progresses deeper into creation, there is a heightened sense of forgetfulness experienced by the consciousness within these forms, obscuring prior states of mindfulness. Examples such as tool use, problem-solving abilities, social cooperation, self-awareness, and learning and adaptation across various species highlight the intricate interplay between consciousness, cognition, and behavior, offering glimpses into TCM's evolving journey and mindfulness within the universe's creation.

[The Tanager]

Dear Jason.
The idea of using this fireside forum was for open discussion, rather than resorting to debate tacticals alone.

How am I resorting to debate instead of just discussing? Are you not wanting me to make any critiques? Are you just wanting to explore what follows if your view is true? Help me out here to understand what you want out of this.

[William]

Dear Jason.
The idea of using this fireside forum was for open discussion, rather than resorting to debate tacticals alone.

How am I resorting to debate instead of just discussing? Are you not wanting me to make any critiques? Are you just wanting to explore what follows if your view is true? Help me out here to understand what you want out of this.

I am not saying critique isn't allowed. This is specific in that I wrote "rather than resorting to debate tacticals alone."
You are free to critique the following. I am asking that the critique is done in a manner which highlights the discussive aspect of mindful interaction.

A view on how The Creator Mind creates.

Based upon the idea of Big Bang Theory and Evolution Theory the explanation is that something called the singularity "contained" everything that the universe currently evolved into, through series of events known as epochs.
(Some well-known epochs include the Planck Epoch, Inflationary Epoch, Electroweak Epoch, and the various stages of the Hot Big Bang, among others.)

In terms of this all happening within The Creator Mind, the singularity represents the "spark of a thought" and the thought itself represents the energy released - not just in the initial thought but in all subsequent thinking which followed through the single event to spread out into that region of The Creator Mind, producing this particular universe we are involved within.
(Within the framework of the Creator Mind hypothesis, the singularity can be likened to the spark of a thought emanating within the mind of the Creator. This initial thought sets forth a cascade of energy release, not only in its inception but also in the subsequent chain of thoughts that ripple through the expanse of the Creator Mind. These thoughts, analogous to the events unfolding through the epochs in scientific theories, propagate throughout the vastness of the Creator Mind, ultimately giving rise to the creation and evolution of the universe.)

The energy is the thought in action within The Creator Mind (TCM). The energy is physical and so to is the one who thought it and this is how mindfulness interacts with itself to produce objects which can then be experienced intimately - eventually - on all levels
As the initial result unfolded into the epochs, there appeared various objects (Galaxies) which was what TCM had envisioned re the initial thought, and allowed TCM opportunity to inject its mindfulness into the objects being created.

This in turn, led to a type of fine-tuning, mindfully so...
(Within the realm of the Creator Mind (TCM), the energy released from the initial thought manifests as physical reality. This energy, imbued with the conscious intent of the Creator, interacts within TCM to give rise to tangible objects and phenomena. As the epochs unfold, galaxies and other cosmic entities emerge in alignment with the envisioned plan within TCM's consciousness.

Through this process, TCM engages in a form of mindful interaction with its creation, fine-tuning the evolving universe with deliberate intent. This conscious engagement infuses the cosmos with purpose and intricacy, allowing for intimate experiences to emerge across all levels of existence.)

TCM achieves this engagement with the objects by being the "minds" within said objects, which eventually leads us to Earth and our human experience.
This is where we pick up the story unfolding re the question of a Sentient Earth - (Is the planet mindful and would this explain why there is life in earth?)
(By inhabiting the forms it creates, the Creator Mind (TCM) becomes the mindfulness within those forms. This perspective suggests that TCM's consciousness permeates through the various entities it brings into existence, including Earth and its inhabitants. Thus, rather than Earth possessing mindfulness independently, it is imbued with mindfulness through the presence of TCM within its forms. This interconnectedness between TCM and its creations underscores a profound unity and mutual influence between the Creator and the created.)

In turn, TCM in the form of planet Earth, is enabled (over time) to perform more fine tuning by creating an incredible variety of forms which TCM (in the role of Earth-Mind) is then able to occupy (be the life/mindfulness within.)

(TCM, manifesting as planet Earth, undergoes a process of refinement, enabling it to perform further fine-tuning. Through this refinement, Earth generates an astonishing array of forms, each of which becomes imbued with the consciousness of TCM—the Earth-Mind. These diverse forms serve as vessels for TCM's presence and mindfulness, allowing for a rich and intricate tapestry of life experiences to unfold on the planet. Through the occupation of these forms, TCM engages intimately with its creation, fostering evolution and complexity within the interconnected web of life on Earth.)

Each sojourn (epoch) deeper into the creation (this universe) brings with it heighten forgetfulness as the form being engaged with acts to prevent prior states and the initial state of mindfulness from being known by TCM occupying said forms.

Some examples of how this is happening are in the following;
1. Tool Use: Certain animals, such as primates and birds, demonstrate the ability to use tools for various purposes, indicating a level of cognitive sophistication.
2. Problem-Solving Abilities: Many species exhibit problem-solving skills in response to challenges in their environment, suggesting a capacity for foresight and planning.
3. Social Cooperation: Numerous organisms, including humans, engage in complex social behaviors, such as cooperation, communication, and empathy, which require an understanding of others' perspectives.
4. Self-Awareness: Some animals display signs of self-awareness, as demonstrated by their ability to recognize themselves in mirrors or engage in behaviors indicative of introspection.
5. Learning and Adaptation: Biological organisms exhibit the capacity to learn from experience and adapt their behavior accordingly, showing a form of cognitive flexibility."

These examples provide evidence of cognitive abilities and behaviors across various species, indicating a continuum of consciousness and mindfulness within the forms inhabited by TCM, highlighting the intricate interplay between consciousness, cognition, and behavior across different forms of life, offering glimpses into the evolving journey of TCM within its own Mind-Field.

TCM is undertaking this exploration and refinement within its own consciousness, as the universe is conceptualized as existing within The Creator Mind. Through the diverse manifestations of consciousness within the forms it inhabits, TCM delves deeper into its own mindfulness, weaving a rich tapestry of experiences and insights within the vast expanse of its own being.

(Discussion is invited.)

[The Tanager]

[Replying to William in post #35]

My comments are (1) I agree that this theory is logically possible and (2) that it accounts for (or explains) the observations you've mentioned fine, but (3) why think it is true? Do you want to discuss any of those comments?

[William]

[Replying to William in post #35]

My comments are (1) I agree that this theory is logically possible and (2) that it accounts for (or explains) the observations you've mentioned fine, but (3) why think it is true? Do you want to discuss any of those comments?

If you agree that the theory is logically possible, this can be discussed in more detail re (1) - I have offered (in my prior post) concepts which can be discussed more deeply.
If you are happy not to (re 2) we can move to discussing in more detail, why such can be thought of as true, (3) or for that matter (perhaps from your position) why they cannot be thought of as true/truth.

[The Tanager]

If you agree that the theory is logically possible, this can be discussed in more detail re (1) - I have offered (in my prior post) concepts which can be discussed more deeply.
If you are happy not to (re 2) we can move to discussing in more detail, why such can be thought of as true, (3) or for that matter (perhaps from your position) why they cannot be thought of as true/truth.

Re (1) and (2), I don't have any questions in particular, so you'd have to carry either of those. All I can add to (at least right now) is with (3), which would involve picking up with you responding to post #32. I'm good with whatever path you want to take it.

[William]

If you agree that the theory is logically possible, this can be discussed in more detail re (1) - I have offered (in my prior post) concepts which can be discussed more deeply.
If you are happy not to (re 2) we can move to discussing in more detail, why such can be thought of as true, (3) or for that matter (perhaps from your position) why they cannot be thought of as true/truth.

Re (1) and (2), I don't have any questions in particular, so you'd have to carry either of those. All I can add to (at least right now) is with (3), which would involve picking up with you responding to post #32. I'm good with whatever path you want to take it.

Post #33 is my response to post #32. To add to that, I am happy to drop those examples altogether as (presently) irrelevant to the debate re the ones which followed, which I think are - at least more so - relevant to the discussion.

Or. We can adjourn for the time being and perhaps discuss one of the other subjects, in another thread in the warmth of another fireside.

[The Tanager]

Post #33 is my response to post #32. To add to that, I am happy to drop those examples altogether as (presently) irrelevant to the debate re the ones which followed, which I think are - at least more so - relevant to the discussion.

Or. We can adjourn for the time being and perhaps discuss one of the other subjects, in another thread in the warmth of another fireside.

Okay. Which examples do you feel are relevant?