If You Don't Believe Quran is the Word of God

[Mirac]

Today science reveals many miracles that no one knew 14 centuries ago. Implications stated in Quran when people thought the earth had the shape of a tray prove that it was written by god. There are many evidence enough to write a book but I am giving you a few.

1. The Two Seas That Don't Merge

A French oceanographer, J. Cousteau noticed that the Mediterranean Sea and the Atlantic Ocean did not merge in the strait of Gibraltar. An incredible barrier prevented the two seas from coming together as stated in Quran.

"He has let free the two seas meeting together. Between them there is a barrier which they do not transgress."

(55-Gracious, 19-20)

This is because of a physical characteristic called “surface tension.� Thus, neighboring seas present different densities, salinity rates and compositions. Water, that usually mixes easily, can turn into a wall and it is not affected by strong waves and currents.

"He is the One who has set free the two seas; one is sweet and palatable, and the other is salty and bitter. And He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed."
(25-The Distinquisher, 53)

2. Orbits of Astronomical Objects

In 17th century Galileo Galilei discovered that planets orbited sun.

"It is He who created the night and the day, and the sun, and the moon; each of them floating in an orbit."

(21-The Prophets, 33)

"By the Sky with its ingeniously devised paths (orbits)."
(51-The Dispersing, 7)

3. Landing on the Moon and its Date

"And the Moon when it is full. You will surely ride from stage to stage. So, why do they not believe?"
(84-The Splitting, 18-20)

"The Hour has come closer and the moon has split."
(54-The Moon, 1)

The number of verses to be counted from this verse to the end of the Quran is 1389. The year 1389 in the Muslim calendar corresponds to the year 1969 in the Gregorian calendar, and the year 1969 was the year when man set foot on the moon for the first time.

4. The Land-Sea Ratio

Word --- Number of occurrence in Quran ---- The Ratio
Sea --------------------- 32 --------------------- 32/45=71.111
Land -------------------- 13 --------------------- 13/45=28.888

The ratio of seas to earth: %71
The ratio of lands to earth: %29

5. Geoidal Form of Earth

Quran explains that the shape of earth is not like a tray or a sphere but geoidal by resembling it to an ostrich's egg. The word “dahw� in the verse below means rotundity like that of the ostrich’s egg.

"He made the earth egg-shaped."

(79-The Snatchers, 30)

6. Only Female Bees Work

In recent decades, it was understood that only female bees build hives, collect nectar and make honey.

"And your Lord revealed the female honeybee; build homes in mountains, and trees, and in the hives people built for you. Then, eat of all fruits, and follow the ways of your Lord made easy (for you). There comes forth from their bellies, a drink of varying colour wherein is healing for men. Verily, in this is indeed a sign for people who think."

(16-The Honeybee, 68-69)

7. Pulsars

Pulsars are highly magnetized, rotating neutron stars that emit a beam of electromagnetic radiation. The radiation can only be observed when the beam of emission is pointing towards the Earth. This is called the lighthouse effect and gives rise to the pulsed nature that gives pulsars their name. The first pulsar was observed on November 28, 1967 (from wikipedia)

"By the heavens and The Knocker. How will you comprehend what the The Knocker is? It’s a piercing star."
(86-The Knocker, 1-3)

8. Unique Fingertips

In 1856, Genn Ginsen found out that the pattern of lines at the tip of a person’s finger was something unique to the individual. Until 1856, men knew nothing about this characteristic of fingertips.

"Does the human being think that We cannot assemble his bones? Surely, We are able to reconstruct even his fingertips."

(75-The Resurrection, 3-4)

9. Big Bang, Gaseous Stage and Expansion of Universe

The Big Bang was the event which led to the formation of the universe, according to the prevailing cosmological theory of the universe's early development (known as the Big Bang theory or Big Bang model). According to the Big Bang model, the universe, originally in an extremely hot and dense state that expanded rapidly, has since cooled by expanding to the present diluted state, and continues to expand today. Over a long period of time, the slightly denser regions of the nearly uniformly distributed matter gravitationally attracted nearby matter and thus grew even denser, forming gas clouds, stars, galaxies, and the other astronomical structures observable today. (from wikipedia)

"Do not these disbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were an integrated mass, which We then split, and from water We made all living things? Will they not believe even then?"

(21-The Prophets, 30)

"Then He turned to the heavens, and it was in a gaseous state. And said to it, and the earth; “Come into existence, willingly or unwillingly.� They said, “We come willingly.� "

(41-Elucidated, 11)

"With power did We construct firmament. Verily, We are expanding it."

(51-The Dispersing, 47)

10. The Atom and its Particles

"Not even an atom’s weight in the heavens and the earth, or something smaller or greater than it is hidden from Him, but all are in a clear record."

(34-Sheba, 3)

[Mirac]

1. If it was known long ago, why scientists discover them lately?

2. What about verses about space? For instance 51:47 implies that the universe is expanding. Do you mean that ancient people went to space?

[darwinian]

1. If it was known long ago, why scientists discover them lately?

2. What about verses about space? For instance 51:47 implies that the universe is expanding. Do you mean that ancient people went to space?

1) Why scientists discovered them lately? You haven't showed that haloclines were discovered only recently. I say they were known all along by ancient divers. Hence it makes it to the Quran.

2) The main English translations of the Quran, i.e. Yusuf Ali, Pickthal and Shakir do not have anything about any expanding universe in the verse you are talking about. Your translation must be faulty.

[Goat]

1. If it was known long ago, why scientists discover them lately?

2. What about verses about space? For instance 51:47 implies that the universe is expanding. Do you mean that ancient people went to space?

1) Why scientists discovered them lately? You haven't showed that haloclines were discovered only recently. I say they were known all along by ancient divers. Hence it makes it to the Quran.

2) The main English translations of the Quran, i.e. Yusuf Ali, Pickthal and Shakir do not have anything about any expanding universe in the verse you are talking about. Your translation must be faulty.

I find that in many holy books (Quran included) , translation is interpretation, and preconceived theology will influence translation.

[Mirac]

1) Why scientists discovered them lately? You haven't showed that haloclines were discovered only recently. I say they were known all along by ancient divers. Hence it makes it to the Quran.

2) The main English translations of the Quran, i.e. Yusuf Ali, Pickthal and Shakir do not have anything about any expanding universe in the verse you are talking about. Your translation must be faulty.

1. Because I did not use the term halocline. Also researchers that I cited before do not use it as well. They discovered barriers that the Qur'an mentions.

2. Translations may differ and it is natural. It is wrong to label one as faulty when it does not please us. A sentence may have multiple meanings, and translators have to choose one. All translations of that verse make sense.

Saheeh: And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander.
Yusuf Ali: With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of space.
M.Pickthal: We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
Dr. Mohsin: With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof.

[darwinian]

1) Why scientists discovered them lately? You haven't showed that haloclines were discovered only recently. I say they were known all along by ancient divers. Hence it makes it to the Quran.

2) The main English translations of the Quran, i.e. Yusuf Ali, Pickthal and Shakir do not have anything about any expanding universe in the verse you are talking about. Your translation must be faulty.

1. Because I did not use the term halocline. Also researchers that I cited before do not use it as well. They discovered barriers that the Qur'an mentions.

2. Translations may differ and it is natural. It is wrong to label one as faulty when it does not please us. A sentence may have multiple meanings, and translators have to choose one. All translations of that verse make sense.

Saheeh: And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander.
Yusuf Ali: With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of space.
M.Pickthal: We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
Dr. Mohsin: With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof.

1) I know that you didn't use the term "halocline". Because I did. A halocline happens where rivers meet the ocean, and it is a "barrier" created by the difference in salinity. There are other kinds of clines in oceanography, but I think the Quranic reference is for a halocline, because a halocline effect can be experienced easily by a diver with no need for modern technology, and the Quran explicitly refers to the difference between the two seas as one being fresh water, and the other being salty; sounds like it is referring to where rivers meet the ocean.

2) When you post a Quranic verse in your original post, you should have also told us what translation you are using. Because there are obvious differences in translation when it comes to verse 51:47.

Now you give us 4 translations and only the first one seems be referring to an expansion, and only if you interpret it that way. The other three (Yusuf Ali, Pickthal and Mohsin) don't even speak of an expansion. Creating or extending the vastness of space is not the same as expanding that space. Do you understand basic English?

[Mirac]

1. Still no explanation why the scientist discovered them lately.

2. Of course. I gave them to exemplify that a verse can have multiple meanings, so its translation differs. I guess you do not understand basic English if you inferred that I wanted to prove all translations mean expansion.

[darwinian]

1. Still no explanation why the scientist discovered them lately.

2. Of course. I gave them to exemplify that a verse can have multiple meanings, so its translation differs. I guess you do not understand basic English if you inferred that I wanted to prove all translations mean expansion.

1) It is you who says that scientists discovered haloclines only lately. And you provide no evidence for this claim.

Here is a quote from Wikipedia's article on halocline: "Haloclines are common in water-filled caves near the ocean. Less dense fresh water from the land forms a layer over salt water from the ocean. Underwater cave explorers passing through the halocline stir up the layers."

I also mentioned that if you google-images for "halocline effect" you can see divers' own pictures when they experience the effect. It is easily observable, and doesn't require any modern technological equipment to experience the halocline effect underwater.

Given this nature of haloclines, and given that ancient people were already practising diving, there is no reason to think that haloclines wouldn't be observed until modern times.

If you insist that haloclines were discovered only recently, you need to bring evidence. I gave you a plausible explanation to justify my belief that they were known to exist long ago.

2) So the question remains. If the Quran is talking of the expansion of the universe, where is it in the main English translations of the Quran? If Yusuf Ali, Pickthal, Shakir and Muhsin Khan translations dont speak of an expansion, why do you come here and tell us of a "miracle"?

[Mirac]

1) It is you who says that scientists discovered haloclines only lately. And you provide no evidence for this claim.

I provided, but you are so lazy to read earlier posts. Gross and Thurman have discovered barriers, and you say that barriers are actually haloclines which can be seen without any technical equipment. Therefore, your logic disproves you. If haloclines have been known for ages then it cannot be the haloclines that scientists have discovered recently. Also, that is why they do not say that they have discovered haloclines, but the barriers that were mentioned in the Qur’an.

Given this nature of haloclines, and given that ancient people were already practising diving, there is no reason to think that haloclines wouldn't be observed until modern times.

Could you link a picture where a halocline can be seen by naked eye? I am really curious if it can be seen that easily. I do not think that ancients had diving equipment and oxygen tubes, so they could dive deep in the water. Also pearl grows in shallow water. Therefore, you should prove that it can be seen in shallow water.

The verse can be translated in either way. Detailed translations also give the other meaning. How Yusuf Ali, Pickthal, Shakir translate does not change this fact.

why do you come here and tell us of a "miracle"?

I did not know that I had to get a permission from you to tell what I think. I thought that contributors of this forum valued the freedom of speech.

[Jester]

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[Goat]

1) It is you who says that scientists discovered haloclines only lately. And you provide no evidence for this claim.

I provided, but you are so lazy to read earlier posts. Gross and Thurman have discovered barriers, and you say that barriers are actually haloclines which can be seen without any technical equipment. Therefore, your logic disproves you. If haloclines have been known for ages then it cannot be the haloclines that scientists have discovered recently. Also, that is why they do not say that they have discovered haloclines, but the barriers that were mentioned in the Qur’an.
.

Except of course, it could be a different barrier that was discovered. Haloclinces are another barrier, and are obvious to divers in shallows.

Other than wishful thinking, what evidence do you have that the recently found barriers are the barriers mentioned in the Quran, since haloclines are also barriers, and can be seen without any technical equipment?