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Did the character of Jesus depicted in the Gospels actually claim to be God?Starboard Tack wrote: If Jesus claimed to be God, he either was, or wasn't. There is no third option. If he was who he claimed to be, then a lot of mystery is solved. I can't think of any issue that could be more pertinent to the discussion of origins.
It is true that the Trinity doctrine as we know it seems to have come later. As late as the ongoing development of the Nicene Creed in the 4th century, the place of the Holy Spirit is rather ambiguous. But the idea of a divine Jesus does in fact appear in Paul.Composer wrote: Even some trinitarian scholars admit the Original believers NEVER believed nor taught nor contemplated the Story book jesus was a god -
The late Dr. W R Matthews, Dean of St Paul's Cathedral, wrote:
"It must be admitted by everyone who has the rudiments of an historical sense that the doctrine of the Trinity, as a doctrine, formed no part of the original message. St Paul knew it not, and would have been unable to understand the meaning of the terms used in the theological formula on which the Church ultimately agreed". (27)
We find the same ambiguity here as in John, that Jesus is God (v 6) and existed before he was born human (v 7) but that Jesus is also somehow separate from God (v 9). Throw in the Holy Spirit, found all over the Gospels and NOT identified with Jesus, and we have the roots of the Trinity if not its formal elaboration.Philippians 2:5-11
5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death"
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
1 Corinthians 15:20-28
New International Version (NIV)
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he has put everything under his feet.[a] Now when it says that everything has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Exactly why I was cagey about my wording. The idea appears in Paul but the Philippians quote I provided may have been Paul quoting an existing hymn. Refpostroad wrote:Paul is all over the place. But he does seem to put "God" as above and separate from Jesus.
This can be also explained if you look at the Philo of Alexandria's concept of "LOGOS", which is a WISDOM of God , that acts as a intermediary between God and Man.ThatGirlAgain wrote:[We find the same ambiguity here as in John, that Jesus is God (v 6) and existed before he was born human (v 7) but that Jesus is also somehow separate from God (v 9). Throw in the Holy Spirit, found all over the Gospels and NOT identified with Jesus, and we have the roots of the Trinity if not its formal elaboration.
It is pretty clear that John read Philo. But can we say the same about whoever came up with the hymn that Paul quotes? How did this idea of a divine Jesus originate? Other than this hymn, Paul does not seem to push the idea and nothing that the Synoptic Gospels attribute to Jesus support it either. Is it the 'Dionysian conspiracy theory' after all?Goat wrote:This can be also explained if you look at the Philo of Alexandria's concept of "LOGOS", which is a WISDOM of God , that acts as a intermediary between God and Man.ThatGirlAgain wrote:[We find the same ambiguity here as in John, that Jesus is God (v 6) and existed before he was born human (v 7) but that Jesus is also somehow separate from God (v 9). Throw in the Holy Spirit, found all over the Gospels and NOT identified with Jesus, and we have the roots of the Trinity if not its formal elaboration.
It is fairly conceivable that Paul was familiar with Philo also.. the timing is right.ThatGirlAgain wrote:It is pretty clear that John read Philo. But can we say the same about whoever came up with the hymn that Paul quotes? How did this idea of a divine Jesus originate? Other than this hymn, Paul does not seem to push the idea and nothing that the Synoptic Gospels attribute to Jesus support it either. Is it the 'Dionysian conspiracy theory' after all?Goat wrote:This can be also explained if you look at the Philo of Alexandria's concept of "LOGOS", which is a WISDOM of God , that acts as a intermediary between God and Man.ThatGirlAgain wrote:[We find the same ambiguity here as in John, that Jesus is God (v 6) and existed before he was born human (v 7) but that Jesus is also somehow separate from God (v 9). Throw in the Holy Spirit, found all over the Gospels and NOT identified with Jesus, and we have the roots of the Trinity if not its formal elaboration.
As discussed someplace recently - I am losing track of threads - the kenosis hymn in Corinthians that sounds a lot like John does not appear to be original with Paul but derived from an early 'Christian' (anachronism) community. If that is the case where did they get the idea from? It could be Philo, which raises the possibility of an early intellectual branch of proto-Christianity of which no trace remains.Goat wrote:It is fairly conceivable that Paul was familiar with Philo also.. the timing is right.ThatGirlAgain wrote:It is pretty clear that John read Philo. But can we say the same about whoever came up with the hymn that Paul quotes? How did this idea of a divine Jesus originate? Other than this hymn, Paul does not seem to push the idea and nothing that the Synoptic Gospels attribute to Jesus support it either. Is it the 'Dionysian conspiracy theory' after all?Goat wrote:This can be also explained if you look at the Philo of Alexandria's concept of "LOGOS", which is a WISDOM of God , that acts as a intermediary between God and Man.ThatGirlAgain wrote:[We find the same ambiguity here as in John, that Jesus is God (v 6) and existed before he was born human (v 7) but that Jesus is also somehow separate from God (v 9). Throw in the Holy Spirit, found all over the Gospels and NOT identified with Jesus, and we have the roots of the Trinity if not its formal elaboration.
Paul was writing in the mid 50's, and Philo died just before that , and was writing around that time. While it might not be a direct copy, there could have easily been similar concepts going around..
I will also point out the phrase 'For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man' which implys that Jesus is not a god , but a man.
The Gnostics perhaps???ThatGirlAgain wrote:As discussed someplace recently - I am losing track of threads - the kenosis hymn in Corinthians that sounds a lot like John does not appear to be original with Paul but derived from an early 'Christian' (anachronism) community. If that is the case where did they get the idea from? It could be Philo, which raises the possibility of an early intellectual branch of proto-Christianity of which no trace remains.Goat wrote:It is fairly conceivable that Paul was familiar with Philo also.. the timing is right.ThatGirlAgain wrote:It is pretty clear that John read Philo. But can we say the same about whoever came up with the hymn that Paul quotes? How did this idea of a divine Jesus originate? Other than this hymn, Paul does not seem to push the idea and nothing that the Synoptic Gospels attribute to Jesus support it either. Is it the 'Dionysian conspiracy theory' after all?Goat wrote:This can be also explained if you look at the Philo of Alexandria's concept of "LOGOS", which is a WISDOM of God , that acts as a intermediary between God and Man.ThatGirlAgain wrote:[We find the same ambiguity here as in John, that Jesus is God (v 6) and existed before he was born human (v 7) but that Jesus is also somehow separate from God (v 9). Throw in the Holy Spirit, found all over the Gospels and NOT identified with Jesus, and we have the roots of the Trinity if not its formal elaboration.
Paul was writing in the mid 50's, and Philo died just before that , and was writing around that time. While it might not be a direct copy, there could have easily been similar concepts going around..
I will also point out the phrase 'For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man' which implys that Jesus is not a god , but a man.
Hmmm...
