Questions for the LDS

[southern cross]

Mormons (if this term offends, please let me know) believe that all of us, as souls, chose to be born on earth and experience the trials and tribulations associated with that decision.
Is this true?
Where were our souls when this question was posed?
Was this question posed by god?
Were we in the presence of god at the time?
Was there an alternative?
Are all unborn souls still residing wherever this was?
Is there a finite number of souls, or are more being created?
Is it only Mormons who achieve heaven?
Thank you in advance.

[dianaiad]

Is it only Mormons who achieve heaven?
Thank you in advance.

Mormons believe in different levels of heaven. If you were a good Mormon during your life then you get the highest level of heaven where you become godlike.

Other levels of heaven are for non mormons but supposedly even these levels of heaven are unimaginable better than the best earthly life has to offer.

Mormons believe that after you die you are taught and shown the truth of their beliefs. Only if you reject it in both your life and afterlife are you consigned to "the outer darkness" which is some type of vague but unpleasant place. Its quite difficult to get into.


Don't forget to ask about (1) the magic underwear and (2)the secret hand signs so you can get into heaven. (they aren't allowed to talk about the hand signs).

Have you heard of Baptism of the Dead?

Yes. I've actually done it. Its really gross having to dig up stinky old corpses and submerge them in holy water (just kidding; its baptism by proxy if you didn't know, though you probably do: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_for_the_dead ).

According to LDS doctrine you don't have to be Mormon in this life to make it to the Celestial Kingdom (the highest kingdom). Rejecting it doesn't mean being cast out to outer darkness, it just means going to a lower kingdom.

Hmm, I'm not too sure. I know non-Mormons are offered a chance to get into the other Kingdoms of heaven after death but I thought i remember being taught that you had to live a "good Mormon mortal life" to get into the Celestial Kingdom. And that involves getting baptized, repenting, etc while you are alive. But maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps Dianaiad can confirm or deny?

You are wrong.


Actually, you need to live a good life according to the laws you KNOW. In other words, if you were a cannibal, you needed to be a good one.

How can someone who doesn't know what the rules ARE be expected to abide by them? I know that 'ignorance of the law is no excuse' HERE, but to God? We believe that ignorance of the law is EVERY excuse. Indeed, someone who has lived a good honorable life as a solid straight on pagan has a better chance of 'making the celestial kingdom' than someone who knows what Christ taught, figures that those rules are pretty good...for other people...and ignores 'em.

[Nickman]

[Replying to post 40 by scourge99]

From what I remember and continue to keep wise on, the standard works don't speak about where or what glory a proxy baptized person gets in the afta life.

[scourge99]

Is it only Mormons who achieve heaven?
Thank you in advance.

Mormons believe in different levels of heaven. If you were a good Mormon during your life then you get the highest level of heaven where you become godlike.

Other levels of heaven are for non mormons but supposedly even these levels of heaven are unimaginable better than the best earthly life has to offer.

Mormons believe that after you die you are taught and shown the truth of their beliefs. Only if you reject it in both your life and afterlife are you consigned to "the outer darkness" which is some type of vague but unpleasant place. Its quite difficult to get into.


Don't forget to ask about (1) the magic underwear and (2)the secret hand signs so you can get into heaven. (they aren't allowed to talk about the hand signs).

Have you heard of Baptism of the Dead?

Yes. I've actually done it. Its really gross having to dig up stinky old corpses and submerge them in holy water (just kidding; its baptism by proxy if you didn't know, though you probably do: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_for_the_dead ).

According to LDS doctrine you don't have to be Mormon in this life to make it to the Celestial Kingdom (the highest kingdom). Rejecting it doesn't mean being cast out to outer darkness, it just means going to a lower kingdom.

Hmm, I'm not too sure. I know non-Mormons are offered a chance to get into the other Kingdoms of heaven after death but I thought i remember being taught that you had to live a "good Mormon mortal life" to get into the Celestial Kingdom. And that involves getting baptized, repenting, etc while you are alive. But maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps Dianaiad can confirm or deny?

You are wrong.

That's why I'm asking.

Actually, you need to live a good life according to the laws you KNOW. In other words, if you were a cannibal, you needed to be a good one.

Whose laws? The society or group you're in or just your own moral compass?

How can someone who doesn't know what the rules ARE be expected to abide by them? I know that 'ignorance of the law is no excuse' HERE, but to God? We believe that ignorance of the law is EVERY excuse. Indeed, someone who has lived a good honorable life as a solid straight on pagan has a better chance of 'making the celestial kingdom' than someone who knows what Christ taught, figures that those rules are pretty good...for other people...and ignores 'em.

According to the bible there is no excuse for ignorance about god because :
1) only a fool says there is no god. Psalm 14:1
2) god made himself known through creation so there is no excuse for disbelief. (Romans 1:20)
3) god has made himself known in our hearts. Ecclesiastes 3:11
4) some will reject god for a lie even if the truth of god is undeniable. (Romans 1:25)
5) anyone who honestly seeks god will find him. So if you seek him and don't find him then you are doing it wrong or aren't honestly searching. (hebrews 11:6)
6) despite all of the above you still need faith. (john 20:29)

Do you have any quotes from Mormon scripture or prophets which backs up what you are saying about following the laws you know and non-mormons getting into the celestial kingdom?

[help3434]

Hmm, I'm not too sure. I know non-Mormons are offered a chance to get into the other Kingdoms of heaven after death but I thought i remember being taught that you had to live a "good Mormon mortal life" to get into the Celestial Kingdom. And that involves getting baptized, repenting, etc while you are alive. But maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps Dianaiad can confirm or deny?

What, don't you trust me? I was a LDS missionary.

Do you have any quotes from Mormon scripture or prophets which backs up what you are saying about following the laws you know and non-mormons getting into the celestial kingdom?

Doctrine and Covenants 137: 7-10:
7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;
8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;
9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.
10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.

Doctrine and Covenants 128:5 is about why it is so important to carefully record baptisms for the dead:
5 You may think this order of things to be very particular; but let me tell you that it is only to answer the will of God, by conforming to the ordinance and preparation that the Lord ordained and prepared before the foundation of the world, for the salvation of the dead who should die without a knowledge of the gospel.

I recommend you read all of section 128 if you want to learn more about what Joseph Smith taught about baptism for the dead. You can read it online for free.

[scourge99]

Hmm, I'm not too sure. I know non-Mormons are offered a chance to get into the other Kingdoms of heaven after death but I thought i remember being taught that you had to live a "good Mormon mortal life" to get into the Celestial Kingdom. And that involves getting baptized, repenting, etc while you are alive. But maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps Dianaiad can confirm or deny?

What, don't you trust me? I was a LDS missionary.

No offense, but form my perspective you are just some guy on the Internets.

Do you have any quotes from Mormon scripture or prophets which backs up what you are saying about following the laws you know and non-mormons getting into the celestial kingdom?

Doctrine and Covenants 137: 7-10:
7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

What exactly qualifies as "knowledge of the gospel"? I'm vaguely familiar with Mormon beliefs. Does that count? Or do i have to get a PhD in Mormonism or something?

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

So this only qualifies for people who are completely ignorant of Mormonism or is this just anyone who isn't a Mormon scholar?

9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

well this seems a bit contradictory to the previous statements. before god says that anyone who is ignorant of mormonism gets a free pass. But now he says he is going to judge them according to their works? On what basis is he going to judge them? A mormon basis?

10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.

yep. Was aware of that one.

Doctrine and Covenants 128:5 is about why it is so important to carefully record baptisms for the dead:
5 You may think this order of things to be very particular; but let me tell you that it is only to answer the will of God, by conforming to the ordinance and preparation that the Lord ordained and prepared before the foundation of the world, for the salvation of the dead who should die without a knowledge of the gospel.

I recommend you read all of section 128 if you want to learn more about what Joseph Smith taught about baptism for the dead. You can read it online for free.

Well i quickly read section 128 and I didn't see anything that directly mentions that those who are baptized by proxy can get into the celestial kingdom.


According to Wikipedia (emphasis mine):

According to Doctrine and Covenants section 76, those who will inhabit the terrestrial kingdom include those who lived respectably but "were blinded by the craftiness of men" and thus rejected the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ when it was presented to them during their mortal lives.[16] It also includes persons who rejected the "testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it" in the spirit world[17] and those who "are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus" after having received it.[18]

[help3434]

Do you have any quotes from Mormon scripture or prophets which backs up what you are saying about following the laws you know and non-mormons getting into the celestial kingdom?

Doctrine and Covenants 137: 7-10:
7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

What exactly qualifies as "knowledge of the gospel"? I'm vaguely familiar with Mormon beliefs. Does that count? Or do i have to get a PhD in Mormonism or something?

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

So this only qualifies for people who are completely ignorant of Mormonism or is this just anyone who isn't a Mormon scholar?

9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

well this seems a bit contradictory to the previous statements. before god says that anyone who is ignorant of mormonism gets a free pass. But now he says he is going to judge them according to their works? On what basis is he going to judge them? A mormon basis?

The LDS church is pretty vague about those details. That is why Mormons try to get all of their ancestors proxy baptized and let Christ judge where they go.

Doctrine and Covenants 128:5 is about why it is so important to carefully record baptisms for the dead:
5 You may think this order of things to be very particular; but let me tell you that it is only to answer the will of God, by conforming to the ordinance and preparation that the Lord ordained and prepared before the foundation of the world, for the salvation of the dead who should die without a knowledge of the gospel.

I recommend you read all of section 128 if you want to learn more about what Joseph Smith taught about baptism for the dead. You can read it online for free.

Well i quickly read section 128 and I didn't see anything that directly mentions that those who are baptized by proxy can get into the celestial kingdom.


According to Wikipedia (emphasis mine):

According to Doctrine and Covenants section 76, those who will inhabit the terrestrial kingdom include those who lived respectably but "were blinded by the craftiness of men" and thus rejected the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ when it was presented to them during their mortal lives.[16] It also includes persons who rejected the "testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it" in the spirit world[17] and those who "are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus" after having received it.[18]

I was taught that salvation means entry into the Celestial Kingdom. Entering into the Celestial Kingdom does not necessarily mean exaltation (becoming like God). Exaltation requires temple marriage. Marriage sealings are done for the dead, but only for those who were lawfully married in life.

[officer2002]

Mormons (if this term offends, please let me know) believe that all of us, as souls, chose to be born on earth and experience the trials and tribulations associated with that decision.
1. Is this true?
2. Where were our souls when this question was posed?
3. Was this question posed by god?
4. Were we in the presence of god at the time?
5. Was there an alternative?
6. Are all unborn souls still residing wherever this was?
7. Is there a finite number of souls, or are more being created?
8. Is it only Mormons who achieve heaven?
Thank you in advance.

1. The soul is the body and spirit together. If you substitute the word "spirit" for "soul", yes. Our options were be born here and have the experiences of mortality or never get a body and be kicked out of heaven for the rebellion (which is the condition of The Devil and his angels).
2. We were in heaven with our heavenly family. We use the wording "Grand Council" to describe the event.
3. Yes, Father in Heaven was there. Our big brother Jehovah(Jesus Christ) was the advocate for the plan of our Father in Heaven. The leader of the opposition was our brother Lucifer.
4. Yes
5. See answer 1.
6. Unborn spirits who did not rebel are residing with Father in Heaven until it is their turn on earth.
7. I have never seen a revelation which answers this question.
8. I do not look at it that way. People need to be baptized by the proper authority which exists only in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. There are ordinances which are only performed in the temples which are required. I do not agree with the summary because we believe people who did not get a chance to accept the gospel in this life will not be punished by God. We perform ordinances for the dead in our temples for people who were not Mormons.

[officer2002]

Mormons (if this term offends, please let me know) believe that all of us, as souls, chose to be born on earth and experience the trials and tribulations associated with that decision.
1. Is this true?
2. Where were our souls when this question was posed?
3. Was this question posed by god?
4. Were we in the presence of god at the time?
5. Was there an alternative?
6. Are all unborn souls still residing wherever this was?
7. Is there a finite number of souls, or are more being created?
8. Is it only Mormons who achieve heaven?
Thank you in advance.

1. The soul is the body and spirit together. If you substitute the word "spirit" for "soul", yes. Our options were be born here and have the experiences of mortality or never get a body and be kicked out of heaven for the rebellion (which is the condition of The Devil and his angels).
2. We were in heaven with our heavenly family. We use the wording "Grand Council" to describe the event.
3. Yes, Father in Heaven was there. Our big brother Jehovah(Jesus Christ) was the advocate for the plan of our Father in Heaven. The leader of the opposition was our brother Lucifer.
4. Yes
5. See answer 1.
6. Unborn spirits who did not rebel are residing with Father in Heaven until it is their turn on earth.
7. I have never seen a revelation which answers this question.
8. I do not look at it that way. People need to be baptized by the proper authority which exists only in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. There are ordinances which are only performed in the temples which are required. I do not agree with the summary because we believe people who did not get a chance to accept the gospel in this life will not be punished by God. We perform ordinances for the dead in our temples for people who were not Mormons.

More on question 8. I hope that God will find cause for mercy for all people to have not accepted the gospel in this life and they will accept the gospel in the spirit world. There will be 3 heavens. They will not be equal. The best one which requires accepting the gospel is dramatically better than the next best one which is dramatically better than they worst one. The Book of Mormon doesn't mention these lesser heavens because Father in Heaven wants us in the best heaven with Him and thus the Book of Mormon tell us how to get there. The 3 degrees of glory(heavens) are in the New Testament and [/i]Doctrine and Covenants.

[Clownboat]

Mormons (if this term offends, please let me know) believe that all of us, as souls, chose to be born on earth and experience the trials and tribulations associated with that decision.
1. Is this true?
2. Where were our souls when this question was posed?
3. Was this question posed by god?
4. Were we in the presence of god at the time?
5. Was there an alternative?
6. Are all unborn souls still residing wherever this was?
7. Is there a finite number of souls, or are more being created?
8. Is it only Mormons who achieve heaven?
Thank you in advance.

1. The soul is the body and spirit together. If you substitute the word "spirit" for "soul", yes. Our options were be born here and have the experiences of mortality or never get a body and be kicked out of heaven for the rebellion (which is the condition of The Devil and his angels).
2. We were in heaven with our heavenly family. We use the wording "Grand Council" to describe the event.
3. Yes, Father in Heaven was there. Our big brother Jehovah(Jesus Christ) was the advocate for the plan of our Father in Heaven. The leader of the opposition was our brother Lucifer.
4. Yes
5. See answer 1.
6. Unborn spirits who did not rebel are residing with Father in Heaven until it is their turn on earth.
7. I have never seen a revelation which answers this question.
8. I do not look at it that way. People need to be baptized by the proper authority which exists only in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. There are ordinances which are only performed in the temples which are required. I do not agree with the summary because we believe people who did not get a chance to accept the gospel in this life will not be punished by God. We perform ordinances for the dead in our temples for people who were not Mormons.

More on question 8. I hope that God will find cause for mercy for all people to have not accepted the gospel in this life and they will accept the gospel in the spirit world. There will be 3 heavens. They will not be equal. The best one which requires accepting the gospel is dramatically better than the next best one which is dramatically better than they worst one. The Book of Mormon doesn't mention these lesser heavens because Father in Heaven wants us in the best heaven with Him and thus the Book of Mormon tell us how to get there. The 3 degrees of glory(heavens) are in the New Testament and [/i]Doctrine and Covenants.

Southern Cross is no longer with us, so I'm not sure where he was going with this for sure, so if you don't mind, I have a few questions for you.

How do you maintain your faith when we know so much about the LDS church is fraud?

Examples:
- The Book of Abraham. Fraud created by Joseph Smith.
- No evidence of horses having been in America until they arrived via boat, yet your religion claims there were here long before that.
- No evidence of smelting furnaces have been found, yet they are to be here.
- No Hebrew DNA is found in American Indians.
- Joseph Smith was a con man.

I understand the desire for some to have a religious belief, but I don't understand how anyone could be Mormon unless they are naive about the history of their religion.

[officer2002]

1.Were these pre-existing souls created before Adam and Eve?

2.Does the Christian doctrine of Original Sin have any effect on them?

3.Is their birth on earth random, or do they have a choice of when and where they are born, who their parents are, etc

4.Do they already have individual personalities before birth? Does this pre-existing personality determine their personality on earth?

5.If their birth body dies young or at birth, do they get a second chance on earth?

1. Souls are bodies and spirits together. The spirits were existing before the creation. Adam was Michael. We believe that Eve must have been an equally valiant spirit for God to have picked her to be the first.
2.There is no Original Sin. Nobody will be kept out of heaven or punished in any way because of what Adam and Eve did.
3.People by having sex( and now also invitro fertilization) decide when a person will be born. God decides which spirit goes into which body. There is no official doctrine about spirits picking their parents or siblings. Some Mormons claim they did. Maybe they are right.
4.Yes.
5.Those who die before reaching the age of accountability (7 years) will get into the best heaven (no second chances needed). We believe there are people who were so valiant in the war in heaven that they only need to come to earth to get a body. Those people were so valiant that if they were not protected by never reaching mental maturity on earth The Devil would unleash all of his power against them.