Was the resurrection made up just because Mark 16 doesn't mention it?

[AgnosticBoy]

POI argued in another thread that the resurrection is not mentioned in the earliest manuscripts for Mark 16, and it seems that he is using that to invalidate the resurrection or to say that it was made up.

Mark is supposed to end at 16:8. The earliest copiies demonstrate this. Someone comes in later and adds more.

Maybe we can start here and see where this goes? The ultimate claim is that Jesus rose from the grave and returned to say 'hi' to some of his followers. Outside of the Gospel'(s) say-so, do we have any corroboration of such an event? Before we answer, let us reflect... "Mark" makes the claim that the tomb was found empty (Mark 16:8). This is where the story line presumably ends.

But wait, later writings then suggest Jesus did come back to say 'hi', (in Mark 16:9-20). Then there is "Luke/Matthew", which show signs of direct borrowing/copying from one-another. Then comes "John", which adds even more 'supernatural-ness' to the storyline.

For Debate...
Does the absence of a resurrection in the original ending of Mark indicate that the resurrection story was made up? (my answer is in post #2)

[TRANSPONDER]

I doubt that any of Q was genuine - not from what i have reconstructed. Mainly it was a lot of teachings and sayings turned by Matthew into a sermon. But with some events,l ike the temptations, John's question and maybe the centurion's servant.

The point about the miracle fish is not whether one can catch a haul of fish after hours of no luck, but appearing in totally different places. In the calling of disciples in Luke but after the resurrection in John. Matthew may show how the thing originally looked; as a metaphor.

Matthew 13.47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, 48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away

Some of Q could be genuine, is my guess.

The fish catches? Since I've seen catches happen like that I have no problem with them at all, and the scene in Matthew 13:47 is realistic, reminds me of a turner painting of just such activity.

But it's the conversion of such scenes from the actual activity in to something spiritual/religious which is bogus.

Of course, but the point is not whether one can rope in a truckload of fish, but where they appear in the Gospels. Luke puts it at the calling of disciples, John after the resurrection - they could hardly be further apart, chronologically. And Matthew using it as a simile, not as a real event, makes it part of the Parables of the Kingdom, where I can bet without checking you won't find it in Mark or Luke. This is why I suggest that was a 'floating story' (I would guess (Matthew's being the original form, as why would he reverse it?) which they used in different and contradictory ways. I suggest this picking up of loose stories could account for a number of coherency problems, that is, if the Experts note them, which from all I've seen, they don't.

[oldbadger]

Of course, but the point is not whether one can rope in a truckload of fish, but where they appear in the Gospels. Luke puts it at the calling of disciples, John after the resurrection - they could hardly be further apart, chronologically. And Matthew using it as a simile, not as a real event, makes it part of the Parables of the Kingdom, where I can bet without checking you won't find it in Mark or Luke. This is why I suggest that was a 'floating story' (I would guess (Matthew's being the original form, as why would he reverse it?) which they used in different and contradictory ways. I suggest this picking up of loose stories could account for a number of coherency problems, that is, if the Experts note them, which from all I've seen, they don't.

OK, so remarkable fish hauls were true, and may well have been figured out by Jesus, but the apostles chose to spin such incidents in to miracle and also to fit in to the timeline of the story.
That's the thing, I'm not interested in the religious spin so much as what the world of Jesus and the boatmen of Genessaret really looked like.

[TRANSPONDER]

Of course, but the point is not whether one can rope in a truckload of fish, but where they appear in the Gospels. Luke puts it at the calling of disciples, John after the resurrection - they could hardly be further apart, chronologically. And Matthew using it as a simile, not as a real event, makes it part of the Parables of the Kingdom, where I can bet without checking you won't find it in Mark or Luke. This is why I suggest that was a 'floating story' (I would guess (Matthew's being the original form, as why would he reverse it?) which they used in different and contradictory ways. I suggest this picking up of loose stories could account for a number of coherency problems, that is, if the Experts note them, which from all I've seen, they don't.

OK, so remarkable fish hauls were true, and may well have been figured out by Jesus, but the apostles chose to spin such incidents in to miracle and also to fit in to the timeline of the story.
That's the thing, I'm not interested in the religious spin so much as what the world of Jesus and the boatmen of Genessaret really looked like.

Certainly, but the question is - is the world of Jesus as in the gospels informative or religious spin? Just take one point from a 'proof of Jesus' picture book aimed at indoctrinating kiddies, fishhooks found in Capernaum. Proof the Gospels are true. But right away, if they use fishhooks, the tales of using nets must be doubted, right? Again, the synagogue built by the centurion (the present one in Capernaum pointed out drooling with doctrinal delight by evangelical tourguides , is actually later than Jesus' time) seems odd - wouldn't there have been one built long before the centurion was even posted there? And Pilate is hardly like the Pilate of the histories, not does the Biblical coercion of Pilate by the priests reflect the very long partnership between Caiaphas and Pilate. Now does the Blasphemy charge make sense, nor does the hatchet job on the Pharisees treat them fairly - these were the Jewish Rabbis of the time, nor does the gospels mention Sepphoris or Jotapa, because they were gone by the time the gospels were written.

Sure, the gospels provide the raw data, but it is 'science' (to use a broad term) that will tell us how much we can trust them to give a reliable picture of the world of Jesus, or indeed, of Jesus himself.

[oldbadger]

Certainly, but the question is - is the world of Jesus as in the gospels informative or religious spin?

Religious Spin.....you know it is, or who knows....you might be a Christian?
It's spin.

Just take one point from a 'proof of Jesus' picture book aimed at indoctrinating kiddies, fishhooks found in Capernaum. Proof the Gospels are true. But right away, if they use fishhooks, the tales of using nets must be doubted, right?

No.....I think they used big fish-hooks to catch very big Catfish. They couldn't sell these to Jews, which might explain why they did night-runs across Genesseret to the pagan shorelines of the Geresenes and Gaderens.

Again, the synagogue built by the centurion (the present one in Capernaum pointed out drooling with doctrinal delight by evangelical tourguides , is actually later than Jesus' time) seems odd - wouldn't there have been one built long before the centurion was even posted there?

Of course..... I don't think that there would have been any synagogue building in Capernaum at that time. If any the 'synagogue' might have been a meeting place.

And Pilate is hardly like the Pilate of the histories, not does the Biblical coercion of Pilate by the priests reflect the very long partnership between Caiaphas and Pilate. Now does the Blasphemy charge make sense, nor does the hatchet job on the Pharisees treat them fairly - these were the Jewish Rabbis of the time, nor does the gospels mention Sepphoris or Jotapa, because they were gone by the time the gospels were written.

I think that there would have been a lot of friction between those two. Pilate would have enjoyed the trashing and picketing of the Temple.....secretly.

Sure, the gospels provide the raw data, but it is 'science' (to use a broad term) that will tell us how much we can trust them to give a reliable picture of the world of Jesus, or indeed, of Jesus himself.

In connection with two-millenial histor, science is rather inexact, so we gather what we can, how we can, when we can.

[TRANSPONDER]

Certainly, but the question is - is the world of Jesus as in the gospels informative or religious spin?

Religious Spin.....you know it is, or who knows....you might be a Christian?
It's spin.

Just take one point from a 'proof of Jesus' picture book aimed at indoctrinating kiddies, fishhooks found in Capernaum. Proof the Gospels are true. But right away, if they use fishhooks, the tales of using nets must be doubted, right?

No.....I think they used big fish-hooks to catch very big Catfish. They couldn't sell these to Jews, which might explain why they did night-runs across Genesseret to the pagan shorelines of the Geresenes and Gaderens.

Again, the synagogue built by the centurion (the present one in Capernaum pointed out drooling with doctrinal delight by evangelical tourguides , is actually later than Jesus' time) seems odd - wouldn't there have been one built long before the centurion was even posted there?

Of course..... I don't think that there would have been any synagogue building in Capernaum at that time. If any the 'synagogue' might have been a meeting place.

And Pilate is hardly like the Pilate of the histories, not does the Biblical coercion of Pilate by the priests reflect the very long partnership between Caiaphas and Pilate. Now does the Blasphemy charge make sense, nor does the hatchet job on the Pharisees treat them fairly - these were the Jewish Rabbis of the time, nor does the gospels mention Sepphoris or Jotapa, because they were gone by the time the gospels were written.

I think that there would have been a lot of friction between those two. Pilate would have enjoyed the trashing and picketing of the Temple.....secretly.

Sure, the gospels provide the raw data, but it is 'science' (to use a broad term) that will tell us how much we can trust them to give a reliable picture of the world of Jesus, or indeed, of Jesus himself.

In connection with two-millenial histor, science is rather inexact, so we gather what we can, how we can, when we can.

Most people think the world of Jesus is as spun by Christian picture -paining. It's what they are taught .Never mind the Romans, the Pharisees are given a bad rap because the writers were (taking their cue from Paul) opposed to Judaism and the Jews.

I never heard of catfish in Genessaret but a kind of John Dory. In any case, I read that the importance of Capernaum was in fish for the Roman fish sauce trade. And if they were caught with hooks, why does the Bible say nets? It might be worth me researching just how they fish Lake Galilee today.

If there was no synagogue -building it was because there had been onethere ever since Capernaum had a large enough Jewish community (I think 600 households id the benchmark) and the Lucan excuse that the Centurion built their synagogue is Luke's way of explaining why Jesus would help a pagan soldier who did not believe in God, never mind Jesus. Matthew of course does not have that - the Centurion goes to Jesus himself, Jesus is not even in Capernaum in John and heals from Cana, a few kilometers distance, and Mark has none of this at all - invention based on a basic tale NOT original to the story or Mark would have it. That's why I suggests a floating story, or Christian claim.

Judea was a fractious country to rule. Nevertheless Pilate and Caiaphas co -operated until the death of Tiberius, when both were replaced. There is no indication that the High priest fought Pilate over appropriating Temple funds for the aqueduct, especially if it supplied the Temple. Point is, I don't buy the Gospel idea of Pilate being intimidated by the Sanhedrin. Pilate has only to send to Tiberius (or his pal Sejanus) by Roman express rider that any complaint by the Sanhedrin by snail -mail is because they were trying to eliminate with a false charge an innocent man who was destroying their credibility. Sejanus would like that and say 'Let him keep on abusing those fakers'. Pilate knew he was safe all the time Sejanus was in power. The gospel excuse and explanation does not figure, and that is far from the only time the 'spin' as you say, does not figure.

Yes, sure it is always arguable, but it comes down to - when Bible claims are undermined by science, history, logic and internal consistency, can we trust the picture it paints of the times, local culture and customs? I would argue that the painting of Gentiles as having more and better faith than the Jews has got to be so anachronistic as to guarantee that the gospels were penned by Graeco Roman Christians. And once one realises that, all the rest is explained, too. Why Herod's appeal to scripture and the Blasphemy charge make no sense, why there are predictions of the Jewish war, and why this is depicted as rejection of Jesus before (supposedly) it had happened. Because it was written (even in original single form) long after those events and by Christians.

ps. not much luck checking Genessaret fishing. It's either Christian propaganda or sites with pop up demands to permit them to infest my computer.

[TRANSPONDER]

The above being a spin -off from the topic.If we can't rely on the gospels to pain even a fair and unbiased picture of Judea and Galilee at the time, or a fair and coherent account of the events and customs of the times, apart from fourse 'witnesses' who disagree about so much and can remember long and complicated conversations or speeches but can't remember a man Jesus brought back to life. And the resurrection accounts are the worst offenders, why should we not (if it is suggested to us) suppose the reason Mark doesn't have it is because it was separately invented and that is why the accounts of Matthew, Luke and John contradict so horribly. And now I am wondering whether the thing they do agree on - the empty tomb (not the angelic message -was itself made up.

Cor!! 53 guests! How good is that. Do consider jointing the fray. Even Bible -apologists.

[The Nice Centurion]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #46]
Dude, we have shady Post Empty Tomb appearances of Jesus in the gospel narratives.
That we have!

But where does the gospel narrative say he resurrected? Where does Jesus himself proclamate: "I resurrected !!!"

Perhaps the resurrection wasnt even made up, only Post Empty Tomb appearances were made up.

Elvis gets seen at every corner sometimes, but never did I hear someone proclamate: "That is because Elvis resurrected !!!".

[oldbadger]

Most people think the world of Jesus is as spun by Christian picture -paining. It's what they are taught .Never mind the Romans, the Pharisees are given a bad rap because the writers were (taking their cue from Paul) opposed to Judaism and the Jews.

Not many people in the UK that I know think of the world of Jesus at all.
Even the Christians don't tend to think of such tings.

I never heard of catfish in Genessaret but a kind of John Dory. In any case, I read that the importance of Capernaum was in fish for the Roman fish sauce trade. And if they were caught with hooks, why does the Bible say nets? It might be worth me researching just how they fish Lake Galilee today.

There are large cat fish in Genesseret, and they would be caught be line. All scaled fish are caught by net.
Nets........ nets made from flax. The reduction of the linseed plant in to fine fibres for net making and cloth is fairly well covered on the internet, I have several photos of these procedures.

If there was no synagogue -building it was because there had been onethere ever since Capernaum had a large enough Jewish community (I think 600 households id the benchmark) and the Lucan excuse that the Centurion built their synagogue is Luke's way of explaining why Jesus would help a pagan soldier who did not believe in God, never mind Jesus. Matthew of course does not have that - the Centurion goes to Jesus himself, Jesus is not even in Capernaum in John and heals from Cana, a few kilometers distance, and Mark has none of this at all - invention based on a basic tale NOT original to the story or Mark would have it. That's why I suggests a floating story, or Christian claim.

Yes, Mark's story is the bench mark for a real story, and most of the miracles can have natural explanations.

Judea was a fractious country to rule. Nevertheless Pilate and Caiaphas co -operated until the death of Tiberius, when both were replaced. There is no indication that the High priest fought Pilate over appropriating Temple funds for the aqueduct, especially if it supplied the Temple. Point is, I don't buy the Gospel idea of Pilate being intimidated by the Sanhedrin. Pilate has only to send to Tiberius (or his pal Sejanus) by Roman express rider that any complaint by the Sanhedrin by snail -mail is because they were trying to eliminate with a false charge an innocent man who was destroying their credibility. Sejanus would like that and say 'Let him keep on abusing those fakers'. Pilate knew he was safe all the time Sejanus was in power. The gospel excuse and explanation does not figure, and that is far from the only time the 'spin' as you say, does not figure.

Jesus was down in Judea for that one week in that one year.
Pilate would have been concerned about the actions and responses of the people. Riots would have caused him much embarrassment.

Yes, sure it is always arguable, but it comes down to - when Bible claims are undermined by science, history, logic and internal consistency, can we trust the picture it paints of the times, local culture and customs? I would argue that the painting of Gentiles as having more and better faith than the Jews has got to be so anachronistic as to guarantee that the gospels were penned by Graeco Roman Christians. And once one realises that, all the rest is explained, too. Why Herod's appeal to scripture and the Blasphemy charge make no sense, why there are predictions of the Jewish war, and why this is depicted as rejection of Jesus before (supposedly) it had happened. Because it was written (even in original single form) long after those events and by Christians.[/quote
OK]

ps. not much luck checking Genessaret fishing. It's either Christian propaganda or sites with pop up demands to permit them to infest my computer.

Not many people have bothered to research fishing in early first century Galilee, but I found details of the boats, anchors, nets and net weights, rope making and more. But you have to apply human nature to the picture to start thinking of the scams of those boatmen.
The first time I read about the night-run to the Gerasenes I clicked on the possibilities...... dealing with the pagans and not declaring the deals for taxation.

[TRANSPONDER]

Most people think the world of Jesus is as spun by Christian picture -paining. It's what they are taught .Never mind the Romans, the Pharisees are given a bad rap because the writers were (taking their cue from Paul) opposed to Judaism and the Jews.

Not many people in the UK that I know think of the world of Jesus at all.
Even the Christians don't tend to think of such tings.

I never heard of catfish in Genessaret but a kind of John Dory. In any case, I read that the importance of Capernaum was in fish for the Roman fish sauce trade. And if they were caught with hooks, why does the Bible say nets? It might be worth me researching just how they fish Lake Galilee today.

There are large cat fish in Genesseret, and they would be caught be line. All scaled fish are caught by net.
Nets........ nets made from flax. The reduction of the linseed plant in to fine fibres for net making and cloth is fairly well covered on the internet, I have several photos of these procedures.

If there was no synagogue -building it was because there had been onethere ever since Capernaum had a large enough Jewish community (I think 600 households id the benchmark) and the Lucan excuse that the Centurion built their synagogue is Luke's way of explaining why Jesus would help a pagan soldier who did not believe in God, never mind Jesus. Matthew of course does not have that - the Centurion goes to Jesus himself, Jesus is not even in Capernaum in John and heals from Cana, a few kilometers distance, and Mark has none of this at all - invention based on a basic tale NOT original to the story or Mark would have it. That's why I suggests a floating story, or Christian claim.

Yes, Mark's story is the bench mark for a real story, and most of the miracles can have natural explanations.

Judea was a fractious country to rule. Nevertheless Pilate and Caiaphas co -operated until the death of Tiberius, when both were replaced. There is no indication that the High priest fought Pilate over appropriating Temple funds for the aqueduct, especially if it supplied the Temple. Point is, I don't buy the Gospel idea of Pilate being intimidated by the Sanhedrin. Pilate has only to send to Tiberius (or his pal Sejanus) by Roman express rider that any complaint by the Sanhedrin by snail -mail is because they were trying to eliminate with a false charge an innocent man who was destroying their credibility. Sejanus would like that and say 'Let him keep on abusing those fakers'. Pilate knew he was safe all the time Sejanus was in power. The gospel excuse and explanation does not figure, and that is far from the only time the 'spin' as you say, does not figure.

Jesus was down in Judea for that one week in that one year.
Pilate would have been concerned about the actions and responses of the people. Riots would have caused him much embarrassment.

Yes, sure it is always arguable, but it comes down to - when Bible claims are undermined by science, history, logic and internal consistency, can we trust the picture it paints of the times, local culture and customs? I would argue that the painting of Gentiles as having more and better faith than the Jews has got to be so anachronistic as to guarantee that the gospels were penned by Graeco Roman Christians. And once one realises that, all the rest is explained, too. Why Herod's appeal to scripture and the Blasphemy charge make no sense, why there are predictions of the Jewish war, and why this is depicted as rejection of Jesus before (supposedly) it had happened. Because it was written (even in original single form) long after those events and by Christians.[/quote
OK]

ps. not much luck checking Genessaret fishing. It's either Christian propaganda or sites with pop up demands to permit them to infest my computer.

Not many people have bothered to research fishing in early first century Galilee, but I found details of the boats, anchors, nets and net weights, rope making and more. But you have to apply human nature to the picture to start thinking of the scams of those boatmen.
The first time I read about the night-run to the Gerasenes I clicked on the possibilities...... dealing with the pagans and not declaring the deals for taxation.

Ok thank you.
Local fishermen talk of four types of fish: "مشط musht" (tilapia); sardin (the Kinneret bleak, Mirogrex terraesanctae); "بني biny" or Jordan barbel, Luciobarbus longiceps (barb-like); and North African sharptooth catfish (Clarias gariepinus).

Then both hooks and nets can be used to fish Gennessaret (1). I'm happy to be corrected there. It still doesn't set aside my initial point about the book 'evidence for Jesus' because of course there would be fish-hooks in a fishing town; that doesn't mean Jesus as in the Bible is real.

I agree that most Christians will accept the sort of quasi -Arab town image of the world of Jesus with a Hollywood Roman soldier mooning about. But I consider quite a few things that Christians may not which may be why I see problems they don't.

Sure Pilate was concerned about Judea as a fractious country, but he stayed in Caesarea mainly. Josephus points out that he travelled to Jerusalem at festivals bringing his 500 troops with him to add to the 500 in the garrison.,which means that the centurion would know the other 4 or so by name and know there was none called 'Naughtius Maximeus'. Which is why we can tell Life of Brian is not true, even if it was obvious to some. This small brigade was stationed on the galleries above the activity below. So if Jesus had started trouble, even with 5.012 men in support, Pilate would have been welll ready and willing to naiil Jesus up without input from the Sadducees. OR if convinced that he could not afford to have his allies the Sadducees undermined by Jesus, they would not need to twist his arm. The story only works if Pilate is convinced that Jesus is innocent but the Sanhedrin force him to allow Jesus to be executed and that story does not stack up.

(1) I may as well mention another theory of mine since Kinneret was mentiond - this is the lake and area. I reckon the aria of Galilee was know as Gen- nessaret. The 'area' of kinnerteth. That is the area of Nazareth on what might be a shift in pronunciation. Thus, if Nazareth didn't exist (not as a big enough place to have its'own synagogue in Jesus' time), it might have popped up after the Jewish war for the priests and their families (as per the Cesarea inscription) and the town was named after the 'gen' of Nessaret - Nazareth. I commend the idea to the experts.

[Masterblaster]

Hello
"Do not stand
          By my grave, and weep.
     I am not there,
          I do not sleep—
I am the thousand winds that blow
I am the diamond glints in snow
I am the sunlight on ripened grain,
I am the gentle, autumn rain.
As you awake with morning’s hush,
I am the swift, up-flinging rush
Of quiet birds in circling flight,
I am the day transcending night.
     Do not stand
          By my grave, and cry—
     I am not there,
          I did not die." Anon

Can you think outside the box?
Do you get it (the poem)?

I was listening to an expert(a good one). He says that the only direct eyewitness account of a risen Jesus was Paul's. Prove him wrong if you like. The risen Jesus appeared to Paul in a vision. What a hoax!