So, for debate:ST88 wrote:Consciousness is just a by-product of natural selection.
What is consciousness?
How did the consciousness arise by natural selection?
Is consciousness a by-product of natural selection?
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otseng
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Is consciousness a by-product of natural selection?
Post #1I would like to pick up on a statement that ST88 made.
What is consciousness?
How did the consciousness arise by natural selection?
What is consciousness?
How did the consciousness arise by natural selection?
Post #51
Indeed-Nice straw man, but as they say in the South ... That dog won't hunt.
You have said NOTHING about same-level-reasoning... YOU switched it now... Bad boy.I said no such thing nor did I imply it. You appear to be under the impression (at least it's the impression that I get) that dogs and people are on a level playing field when it comes to the ability to reason. Either you know some really smart dogs or some really dumb people.
Ashamed of myself? Whatever for? Contending that I can reason better than my dog? C'mon! I win over 70% of the time when we play scrabble. I must be smarter than he is.
Post #52
Otseng did inquire about this tread, so I took a look at it.
One thing that caught my eye was otseng congratulating another poster for taking the "high road" which seemed mainly for not "giving in" to a non-creationist which is as biasedly partisan as I can imagine. MY view of Lillsnoopp's post is that of heroically taking others to task for their fallacies in their arguments, and Gollum and CJO deliberately shifting the "goalpost" when their position was shown untennable by Lillsnoop. Lillsnopp, BTW, has not visited since late may. Could that be ebcause of the lack of respect his views received?
Now, that we hopefully are past such partisanship (No, otseng, misrepresentations and ignoring others' points is NOT the "high road."), we can move on.
It seems that the focus was changed to that of free will, that of making choices. Many animals are able to make choices distinctly different from other animals of same species (thus disproving the "instinct" claim). And certainly, chimps and Bonobos are able to show empathy and comforting other members of their species. And this seems learned. Goodall's studies clearly show such traits to be somewhat associated with learning from mothers (in chimps), even when the young was adopted.
As this discussion seems to be about Humans vs other animals, and chimps/bonobos being considered "others," the comparison is valid (Although chimps and humans are so much closer than they are to anything else that they really ought to be the same Genus), a notable point about almost every trait claimed by esp. CJO and Gollum is that these are also seem in chimps/bonobos. Yes, chimps have not composed the "Messiah,", but they problem solve and make deliberate choices and are able to teach their young unique skills.
So if the claim is that humans are unique "creations," it can not be per "consciousness, per ability to reason and chose paths pof actiosn beyond instinctive reactions.
One thing that caught my eye was otseng congratulating another poster for taking the "high road" which seemed mainly for not "giving in" to a non-creationist which is as biasedly partisan as I can imagine. MY view of Lillsnoopp's post is that of heroically taking others to task for their fallacies in their arguments, and Gollum and CJO deliberately shifting the "goalpost" when their position was shown untennable by Lillsnoop. Lillsnopp, BTW, has not visited since late may. Could that be ebcause of the lack of respect his views received?
Now, that we hopefully are past such partisanship (No, otseng, misrepresentations and ignoring others' points is NOT the "high road."), we can move on.
It seems that the focus was changed to that of free will, that of making choices. Many animals are able to make choices distinctly different from other animals of same species (thus disproving the "instinct" claim). And certainly, chimps and Bonobos are able to show empathy and comforting other members of their species. And this seems learned. Goodall's studies clearly show such traits to be somewhat associated with learning from mothers (in chimps), even when the young was adopted.
As this discussion seems to be about Humans vs other animals, and chimps/bonobos being considered "others," the comparison is valid (Although chimps and humans are so much closer than they are to anything else that they really ought to be the same Genus), a notable point about almost every trait claimed by esp. CJO and Gollum is that these are also seem in chimps/bonobos. Yes, chimps have not composed the "Messiah,", but they problem solve and make deliberate choices and are able to teach their young unique skills.
So if the claim is that humans are unique "creations," it can not be per "consciousness, per ability to reason and chose paths pof actiosn beyond instinctive reactions.
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richGUY2112
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Animals making non-instinctual choices
Post #53Hello,
I''m new here and was poking around and saw this thread and I just thought I should add a few animal facts. For starters, benobo chimps also partake in very avid orgies wether they are in heat or not. There is a single remote pod of bottle nose dolphins who, because of their cold environment, abstain from sex even during heat. It is no instinct but a rule of the pod, as some members are regularly disciplined for breaking it. They even go so far as to kill offspring born from mating at the wrong time because they slow the others down during migration(the reason for the rule in the first place).These dolphins are not a different species either, they moved to their home willingly and out of the blue about 60 years ago and started this behavior about 30yrs ago. Also we have the infamous lucy the chimp, she learned 500 words of sign language and speaks quite well, also she loves to flip through magazines and sign out what she sees in them. But the truly amazing thing about lucy is that she was having a hard time dealing with her children because she had gotten so used to using sign that she wasn't good at"speaking ape" anymore. So she sat down and patiently taught her children every single word of sign she knows. It is one thing to teach a chimp human things it is quite another for them to be the teacher.Finally we have some orangs from a zoo (I belive it was in cincinnati but Iim not sure) these orangs have done pretty neat stuff. One somehow got a hold of a screwdriver, had never seen one before, but figured out what it was for and took all the screws out of its cage. The same orangs also willful deceived their handlers. They were trained to do good by being rewarded with small metal washers which they could trade for their favorite fruits when they had enough. Some of the orangs got a hold of some tin gum wrapper and fashioned it into quite good copies of the washers and tried to pass it off to get some fruit, they counterfeited money basically LOL. Just thought I would give a few examples of higher thinking by lower creatures.
I''m new here and was poking around and saw this thread and I just thought I should add a few animal facts. For starters, benobo chimps also partake in very avid orgies wether they are in heat or not. There is a single remote pod of bottle nose dolphins who, because of their cold environment, abstain from sex even during heat. It is no instinct but a rule of the pod, as some members are regularly disciplined for breaking it. They even go so far as to kill offspring born from mating at the wrong time because they slow the others down during migration(the reason for the rule in the first place).These dolphins are not a different species either, they moved to their home willingly and out of the blue about 60 years ago and started this behavior about 30yrs ago. Also we have the infamous lucy the chimp, she learned 500 words of sign language and speaks quite well, also she loves to flip through magazines and sign out what she sees in them. But the truly amazing thing about lucy is that she was having a hard time dealing with her children because she had gotten so used to using sign that she wasn't good at"speaking ape" anymore. So she sat down and patiently taught her children every single word of sign she knows. It is one thing to teach a chimp human things it is quite another for them to be the teacher.Finally we have some orangs from a zoo (I belive it was in cincinnati but Iim not sure) these orangs have done pretty neat stuff. One somehow got a hold of a screwdriver, had never seen one before, but figured out what it was for and took all the screws out of its cage. The same orangs also willful deceived their handlers. They were trained to do good by being rewarded with small metal washers which they could trade for their favorite fruits when they had enough. Some of the orangs got a hold of some tin gum wrapper and fashioned it into quite good copies of the washers and tried to pass it off to get some fruit, they counterfeited money basically LOL. Just thought I would give a few examples of higher thinking by lower creatures.
Re: Animals making non-instinctual choices
Post #54Hi, welcome to the DC&R forumsrichGUY2112 wrote:Hello,
I'm in no doubt that many of the 'higher' properties attributed to human consciousness can also to be found in other animals. I recently recalled here how a pet cat saved a drowning lamb by summoning help. This is but one of numerous reports of family pets alerting owners to danger. Human lives have been saved in many instances as well. Do these incidents not demonstrate concern, which arises from values that some here seem to feel are the exclusive properties of humans?
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richGUY2112
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Post #55
QED,
Personally I beleive they arrive out of concern as well as genuine love. I dont see anything humans feel as exclusive to humans, other than what requires higher thinking. I certainly do not think that consciousness requires anymore than higher thought either. Its nothing mystical or special, it's just deep contemplation that a larger brain is capable of. Alot of people don't relise that love and nurturing are not products of the cerebral parts of the brain but they are from the layer that evolved just above what some call the "reptile brain". All animals that have this layer also care for and mother their young, as well as show affection.
Personally I beleive they arrive out of concern as well as genuine love. I dont see anything humans feel as exclusive to humans, other than what requires higher thinking. I certainly do not think that consciousness requires anymore than higher thought either. Its nothing mystical or special, it's just deep contemplation that a larger brain is capable of. Alot of people don't relise that love and nurturing are not products of the cerebral parts of the brain but they are from the layer that evolved just above what some call the "reptile brain". All animals that have this layer also care for and mother their young, as well as show affection.
Post #56
Of course this would all be due to one of those very obvious, but hard to swallow, evolutionary facts that so upsets certain people: any animal that did not exhibit a loving nature towards its offspring (as an inherited trait) would be less like to survive as a species. Period.
