Jesus is God - Colossians 1:15-16

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Wootah
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Jesus is God - Colossians 1:15-16

Post #1

Post by Wootah »

The Son is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things in heaven and on earth were created,
things visible and invisible,
whether they are kings, lords, rulers, or powers.
All things have been created through him and for him.
17 He himself existed before anything else did,
and he holds all things together.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=ISV
If all things have been created through Jesus then Jesus cannot have been created.

If Jesus is not created he must be God.

Is this proof Jesus is God?

Youtube video:
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."

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Re: Jesus is God - Colossians 1:15-16

Post #51

Post by Brightfame52 »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #50]

Jesus is God and Creator. Col 1; Jn 1

He is the Most High God Isa 6:1-5

In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.

5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.

John writes this vision is of Jesus Christ Jn 12:40-41

40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

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Re: Jesus is God - Colossians 1:15-16

Post #52

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to Brightfame52 in post #51]

All that you quoted is aimed at JEHOVAH, the Most High. (Psalm 83:18, KJV) Jesus is His Son, and Jesus doesn't have all of the knowledge that the Father has (Matthew 24:36). Jesus depends on Jehovah to help him in times of strife, and to tell him what to do and say.

"In the days of his flesh Christ offered up supplications and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear. Although he was a Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered." (Hebrews 5:7,8)

"Jesus went on to say to them: 'Most truly I say to you, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner.'" (John 5:19)

"I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak....The things I speak just as the Father has told me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)

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Re: Jesus is God - Colossians 1:15-16

Post #53

Post by onewithhim »

Brightfame52 wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2023 6:52 am [Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #50]

Jesus is God and Creator. Col 1; Jn 1

He is the Most High God Isa 6:1-5

In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.

5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.

John writes this vision is of Jesus Christ Jn 12:40-41
That is not entirely true. What is cited there is about Christ AND the Father, Jehovah. (And wherever you see "LORD" in all upper-case letters, that is where the name of God appears in the original Hebrew text, in the form of the Tetragrammaton, YHWH. Men have taken out God's name and placed "LORD" there instead.) Look up the original text in Isaiah 53:1 that John is quoting here and you will see "LORD" in upper-case letters. That is where the Tetragrammaton appears which is translated as "Jehovah." Jesus is spoken of there, it is true, after the first verse. The whole 53rd chapter is about him. Isaiah 6:1-5 is completely about YHWH, as you can see the upper-case letters of "LORD."

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Re: Jesus is God - Colossians 1:15-16

Post #54

Post by Brightfame52 »

[Replying to onewithhim in post #52]

I quoted that which substantiates Jesus is God. I cant help it you wont receive the evidence, thats beyond my pay grade.

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Re: Jesus is God - Colossians 1:15-16

Post #55

Post by Brightfame52 »

[Replying to onewithhim in post #53]

Yes its entirely true, Jesus is the Most High, the Lord of Glory Isaiah saw in Vision. The Being he saw had a Train, notice Isa 6:1

In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

That word means:

skirt (of robe)

of high priest's robe

Christ the Son of God is the High Priest in Heaven for His People, not the Father Heb 4:14

14Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

This same lord is identified as the Lord Yaweh of Hosts in Vs 3
And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

Ps 24:10

10 Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory! Selah

May God be merciful to you and cause you to believe !

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Re: Jesus is God - Colossians 1:15-16

Post #56

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Brightfame52 wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 6:51 am [Replying to onewithhim in post #53]

Yes its entirely true, Jesus is the Most High, the Lord of Glory Isaiah saw in Vision. The Being he saw had a Train, notice Isa 6:1
I would strongly advise you to get a bible with the Divine NAME [YHWH /Yahweh/ Jehovah ...] So you can identify more easily which passages refer to the Father (Jehovah) and which refer to The Son (Jesus). I appreciate not all religions informe their members that God the Father has a personal name but it is not hard with the internet for someone to take the initiative and educate themselves in this regard.

Various translations: https://biblehub.com/isaiah/61-1.htm


JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Jesus is God - Colossians 1:15-16

Post #57

Post by Diogenes »

[Replying to Wootah in post #1]
When Jesus specifically taught us how to pray, he did not say "My" Father. Instead
Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.


“Father,… This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent” (John 17.3).

Earlier, he told his Jewish opponents that the Father is “the one and only God” (John 5.44). And again, at the Last Supper, Jesus distinguished himself from this one and only God by commanding his disciples, “believe in God, believe also in Me” (14.1).

“There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all” (Eph 4.4-6). Here, Paul implicitly identifies Jesus Christ as “one Lord” and distinguishes him from the “one God,” whom he unequivocally identifies as “the Father.”
Paul is unique in NT literature in that he consistently calls Jesus “Lord” and the Father “God.” Therefore, he never calls Jesus “God.”

“‘Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?’ And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone’” (Mark 10.17-18/Luke 18.18-19 and Matthew 19.16-17).

Peter preached about “Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst” (Acts 2.22).

The FACT that Jesus is not God is also supported by Jewish tradition that there is only one God; that God would send a special prophet, a ‘Messiah,’ not that he would incarnate himself.

This truth and the sad fact that the Church fell into the same very human trap of many religions, worshipping the messenger instead of the message , is expanded upon expertly by Thomas Sheehan, in ‘The First Coming.’

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Re: Jesus is God - Colossians 1:15-16

Post #58

Post by onewithhim »

Brightfame52 wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 6:51 am [Replying to onewithhim in post #53]

Yes its entirely true, Jesus is the Most High, the Lord of Glory Isaiah saw in Vision. The Being he saw had a Train, notice Isa 6:1

In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

That word means:

skirt (of robe)

of high priest's robe

Christ the Son of God is the High Priest in Heaven for His People, not the Father Heb 4:14

14Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

This same lord is identified as the Lord Yaweh of Hosts in Vs 3
And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

Ps 24:10

10 Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory! Selah

May God be merciful to you and cause you to believe !
Yes, the LORD of Hosts is YHWH--Jehovah. You can see His name (as the Tetragrammaton) in 7,000 places in the original Hebrew texts if you will take the time to look at a Hebrew Bible or an Interlinear Bible.

There is no reason to believe that Jesus is Jehovah. They are two separate individuals. The skirts, or, train filling the temple idea to equate that with Jesus is an unscholarly stretch.

I don't see where the same LORD as YHWH is identified as the Lord Jesus Christ. Could you make that clearer? I don't know whether you're in Hebrews or Isaiah or Psalms when you make a statement. You said "This same lord is identified as the Lord Yaweh in Vs. 3".....Vs. 3 of which book? I don't see anything like that in verse 3 of Hebrews chapter 4. And verse 14 just refers to, "...Jesus the Son of God." Once again showing that Jesus is not God but God's Son.

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Re: Jesus is God - Colossians 1:15-16

Post #59

Post by Wootah »

Diogenes wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 12:21 pm [Replying to Wootah in post #1]
When Jesus specifically taught us how to pray, he did not say "My" Father. Instead
Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.


“Father,… This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent” (John 17.3).

Earlier, he told his Jewish opponents that the Father is “the one and only God” (John 5.44). And again, at the Last Supper, Jesus distinguished himself from this one and only God by commanding his disciples, “believe in God, believe also in Me” (14.1).

“There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all” (Eph 4.4-6). Here, Paul implicitly identifies Jesus Christ as “one Lord” and distinguishes him from the “one God,” whom he unequivocally identifies as “the Father.”
Paul is unique in NT literature in that he consistently calls Jesus “Lord” and the Father “God.” Therefore, he never calls Jesus “God.”

“‘Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?’ And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone’” (Mark 10.17-18/Luke 18.18-19 and Matthew 19.16-17).

Peter preached about “Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst” (Acts 2.22).

The FACT that Jesus is not God is also supported by Jewish tradition that there is only one God; that God would send a special prophet, a ‘Messiah,’ not that he would incarnate himself.

This truth and the sad fact that the Church fell into the same very human trap of many religions, worshipping the messenger instead of the message , is expanded upon expertly by Thomas Sheehan, in ‘The First Coming.’

Image
Jesus says

This, then, is how you should pray:

Do you agree that solves your first point?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."

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Re: Jesus is God - Colossians 1:15-16

Post #60

Post by onewithhim »

Wootah wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 3:19 pm
Diogenes wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 12:21 pm [Replying to Wootah in post #1]
When Jesus specifically taught us how to pray, he did not say "My" Father. Instead
Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.


“Father,… This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent” (John 17.3).

Earlier, he told his Jewish opponents that the Father is “the one and only God” (John 5.44). And again, at the Last Supper, Jesus distinguished himself from this one and only God by commanding his disciples, “believe in God, believe also in Me” (14.1).

“There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all” (Eph 4.4-6). Here, Paul implicitly identifies Jesus Christ as “one Lord” and distinguishes him from the “one God,” whom he unequivocally identifies as “the Father.”
Paul is unique in NT literature in that he consistently calls Jesus “Lord” and the Father “God.” Therefore, he never calls Jesus “God.”

“‘Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?’ And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone’” (Mark 10.17-18/Luke 18.18-19 and Matthew 19.16-17).

Peter preached about “Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst” (Acts 2.22).

The FACT that Jesus is not God is also supported by Jewish tradition that there is only one God; that God would send a special prophet, a ‘Messiah,’ not that he would incarnate himself.

This truth and the sad fact that the Church fell into the same very human trap of many religions, worshipping the messenger instead of the message , is expanded upon expertly by Thomas Sheehan, in ‘The First Coming.’

Image
Jesus says

This, then, is how you should pray:

Do you agree that solves your first point?
What does that mean?

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