Luke 6:22-23: Does this give license for Christians to be jerks?

[boatsnguitars]

Luke 6:22-23:

“Blessed are you when people hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man. Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their ancestors treated the prophets.”

The verse makes it clear that Christians will be hated and excluded because they will be associated with Evil - because of Jesus.

Christians might say, "Yes, associated with Evil, but we're the good guys!" But, Jesus must have known his ideas were hateful. He must have known he was preaching hate, or why think his followers would be hated?

Let's see why Christians are considered Evil.
Biblical Teachings:
Interpretations of certain biblical passages, contribute to perceptions of exclusivity and judgmental attitudes, leading to vilification.

Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 (Homosexuality):
These passages contain prohibitions against homosexual behavior and are often cited in discussions about LGBTQ+ rights. Some verses that contribute to discrimination and exclusion:

1 Timothy 2:11-15 (Women's Roles):
This passage addresses the role of women in the church and has been a source of controversy, with debates over whether it supports or restricts women's leadership roles within religious institutions.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 (Rape and Marriage):
Critics may point to this passage as problematic due to its prescription for a rapist to marry their victim, raising ethical concerns about the treatment of survivors and the endorsement of such practices.

Psalm 137:9 ("Babylonian Babies" verse):
This verse, which speaks of dashing Babylonian infants against rocks, is sometimes cited to highlight the apparent brutality in certain Old Testament passages, leading to questions about the morality of such narratives.

Exodus 21:20-21 (Treatment of Slaves):
Passages discussing the treatment of slaves in the Old Testament have been criticized for not explicitly condemning slavery and, in some cases, appearing to regulate it.

Matthew 10:34-36 (Division):
This passage, where Jesus speaks about bringing a sword and division, can be controversial when interpreted as promoting conflict, particularly when applied to interfaith or intra-faith relations.

Ephesians 6:5-9 (Slavery and Masters):
Similar to Old Testament passages, New Testament verses that seem to regulate the relationship between slaves and masters have been criticized for not outright condemning slavery.

Numbers 31:17-18 (Treatment of Midianite Women):
This passage describes the killing of male children and the sparing of female children during warfare, which raises moral questions and concerns about the treatment of non-combatant populations.

Genesis 19:1-11 (Sodom and Gomorrah):
This passage is often cited in discussions about the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah, contributing to debates around the Bible's stance on homosexuality.

Historical Ecclesiastical Misconduct:
Instances of historical misconduct by the Church, including the Crusades, the Inquisition, and the clergy abuse scandals, have left lasting negative impressions on public perception.
Did Jesus prophesize this, yet say nothing to his followers to avoid it?

Resistance to Social Change:
Resistance or perceived resistance to social and cultural changes, led to criticism and vilification.

Civil Rights Movement:
Many Christian groups resisted the Civil Rights Movement, particularly during the mid-20th century. Some argued against desegregation and equal rights for African Americans based on perceived biblical justifications. The Christians arguing for desegregation were often Black, or Liberal (traditionally vilified by the Church).

Women's Liberation Movement:
Christian denominations have resisted aspects of the women's liberation movement, opposing women's rights, gender equality, and the expansion of roles for women in the church and society.

Reproductive Rights:
Christians, particularly within conservative branches of the faith, have traditionally resisted changes related to reproductive rights, such as access to contraception, abortion rights, and comprehensive sex education. (By Consrevative, we usually mean non-Liberal, non-luke warm Christians who adhere to every jot and tittle of the Bible).

LGBTQ+ Rights:
Most Christian denominations and groups have resisted advancements in LGBTQ+ rights, including marriage equality and protections against discrimination, often citing scriptural interpretations that view homosexuality as incompatible with

Scientific Advancements:
Throughout history, some Christians resisted certain scientific advancements that challenged traditional theological views, such as the heliocentric model of the solar system, the theory of evolution, and more recent debates over issues like climate change.

End-of-Life Issues:
Christians, particularly those in conservative circles, have sometimes resisted changes related to end-of-life issues, such as assisted suicide and euthanasia, based on ethical considerations rooted in religious beliefs.

Secularization and Separation of Church and State:
Many Christians have resisted secularization trends and the separation of church and state, advocating for a more direct influence of religious values on governance and public policies.

Cultural Changes:
Christians have, at times, resisted broader cultural changes that are perceived as contrary to traditional values, including shifts in entertainment, fashion, and popular culture.

Environmental Stewardship:
While many Christian groups emphasize the importance of environmental stewardship, there have been instances where resistance to certain environmental policies stems from concerns about economic impact or conflicting interpretations of biblical teachings on human dominion.

Interfaith Dialogue and Cooperation:
Many Christians have resisted efforts towards interfaith dialogue and cooperation, particularly with religions that have historically been viewed as competitors or adversaries.

Dogmatism and Intolerance:
The perception of dogmatism and intolerance towards differing beliefs or lifestyles can contribute to the vilification of Christianity. After all, one of the worst things you can do as a Christian is be tolerant of things you call sin, and to waver in your strong, Christian faith.

Missionary Activities and Cultural Imperialism:
Criticisms of missionary activities and perceptions of cultural imperialism contribute to the vilification of Christianity, especially in the context of colonial history.

Sexual Morality Debates:
Debates around sexual morality, including issues like abortion and contraception, may lead to vilification when Christian perspectives clash with broader societal views.

Political Activism:
Involvement in political activism, particularly when aligned with specific controversial policies or candidates, lead to polarization and criticism.

Proselytization Efforts:
Aggressive or perceived aggressive proselytization efforts are viewed negatively, leading to criticism and vilification.

Cultural Insensitivity:
Instances of cultural insensitivity, where Christian practices clash with or dismiss local customs, contribute to negative perceptions.

Hypocrisy:
Publicized instances of hypocrisy among prominent Christian figures or institutions can undermine the credibility of the faith and lead to vilification.

Religious Exclusivity:
Belief in the exclusivity of salvation through Christianity is viewed as intolerant, contributing to negative perceptions of the faith.


Now, I'm sure someone will shrug and say, "Well, that's all humanity! Other groups are just as bad!"

Maybe, but they also don't have a passage in their Holy Text that gives them license to be hated and then say that you'll be rewarded for it...

So, why are Christians vilified?

[TRANSPONDER]

I always find it good to stand back and let Religionists get in the arena and battle each other. It for sure proves that there is no reason to suppose that any of them are getting Truth from God, Interpreting the Bible right or even doing a convincing job on the evidence.

It is just another exhibition of reasons why we should not believe any Theist claims.

[Masterblaster]

I always find it good to stand back and let Religionists get in the arena and battle each other. It for sure proves that there is no reason to suppose that any of them are getting Truth from God, Interpreting the Bible right or even doing a convincing job on the evidence.

It is just another exhibition of reasons why we should not believe any Theist claims.

------
Hello TRANSPONDER
I told you that you had a 'chip' on your shoulder which you refuse to engage with. When discord gives you glee you do not even step up to the standards of biblical Proverbs. The early church grappled with these matters with all they had. They tried their best at a time in history that was filled with horror and despair. It is much easier to retrospectively observe from your laptop, than it is to tease out the ongoing discussion, that is Jesus.
I feel that the phrasing used by Data needs clarification as I lead more towards the concept of personal epiphany guided by effective instruction. That is all.

[Masterblaster]

Hello Data

You declare - "Christ is the arbiter and judge"

I am saying that that is incorrect, to me, and it is something that needs to be explained by the declaree(you), before you stamp it down on your post. Most people fundamentally disagree with this subjective and vague summation.

What does this mean Data? Did it happen? John 8

"Then Jesus stood up again and said to the woman, “Where are your accusers? Didn’t even one of them condemn you?”11 “No, Lord,” she said.

And Jesus said, “Neither do I. Go and sin no more.”
15:" Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man"

I do not seek a gotcha moment here but rather encourage you to expand on your original declaration. How does the statement represent your faith?

Hello Data, TRANSPONDER
The irony of the above post is not lost on me either.
I use a passage, only found in the John Gospel, ( a Gospel I try to avoid), to make a point refuting Data who might supposedly be a huge fan of John. And ,TRANSPONDER, could reasonably ask, who stuck the story in, in the first place and where did they get it from.
It might be an insert against Jewish Law, but I hope the story of the woman who committed adultery ,is legit, for a myriad of reasons. It appears implausible that a mob could be deterred so easily. It wouldn't go down, that way, in a spaghetti western.

[Masterblaster]

Hello
The adultress woman is an iconic image in Judaism. She is a temptress whore that symbolizes for them the weaknesses of the flesh and their overall masculine frailties. She teases the righteous with her ridicule. She mocks their urges. She is Eve.

Proverbs 5:3-22
3 For the lips of the adulterous woman drip honey, and her speech is smoother than oil;

Now we have Jesus being literally confronted with this Biblical demon. We stand aghast as a man actually has to deal with a woman ' theologically "
Horror!

Initially I imagined the story in the NT as being a counterweight to the Jesus being run out of Nazareth story which does seem credible. Then I thought this was the slut theme being revisited.

This is more likely to be the explanation. The promoters of early Christianity begin to realise that they are going nowhere without ' the women'. Inspiration like that usually hits mankind ,once every one thousand years.
Maybe the woman at the well story was well recieved amongst 'the other kind'. Maybe, just go with a good story that loosens the shackles off the Proverb's Jezebel and regain the popular vote, ..maybe!
Maybe get Luke to write a nice story about Mary and Martha scrubbing around Jesus's feet. They were prolifically, releasing ,hit after hit to appeal to a female audience that they had noticed for the first time.
The modern Catholic Church would not function at ground level without the voluntary support of women, and they know it. It's a secret...ssshhh!

[TRANSPONDER]

I always find it good to stand back and let Religionists get in the arena and battle each other. It for sure proves that there is no reason to suppose that any of them are getting Truth from God, Interpreting the Bible right or even doing a convincing job on the evidence.

It is just another exhibition of reasons why we should not believe any Theist claims.

------
Hello TRANSPONDER
I told you that you had a 'chip' on your shoulder which you refuse to engage with. When discord gives you glee you do not even step up to the standards of biblical Proverbs. The early church grappled with these matters with all they had. They tried their best at a time in history that was filled with horror and despair. It is much easier to retrospectively observe from your laptop, than it is to tease out the ongoing discussion, that is Jesus.
I feel that the phrasing used by Data needs clarification as I lead more towards the concept of personal epiphany guided by effective instruction. That is all.

I confess my most grievous sin. I cannot help but enjoy the moment when the army flailing at me with polemical clubbery turn on each other. In logical terms of course, it underlines all the points atheist apologetics make about different interpretations of the Bible and a disproffof any idea that God is downloading truth into their heads.

I might even mention that it is satisfying payback for those theists who try to set atheists against each other saying that atheist X or Y said this so I should take issue with them. And never mind the hint that atheists have some kind of psychological imbalance due to their beef with Christian claims. The about of stick that atheists got and still get and the grab bag of dirty tricks, misrepresentation, ongoing desire to shut us up and eliminate us and the underlying annoyance at understanding 2000 years of lies underlying Christianity without even getting onto the grift, lies and dishonesty of at leas some who make it a business might make it not so much a chip but a Sign in which we hope to conquer. But as I said, never mind that. we already have enough beef on board to sink the ark.

[Masterblaster]

Hello TRANSPONDER

We have enough baggage on board to sink any Ark.
You will find no defense or justification or apologist argument from me here. Any followers of the Jesus Gospel must be made aware of their own abject failures. We follow a person who's intent is open to misinterpretation and is one which has been, and is horrifically misused.

Take this Bible quote as an example.

"Wisdom:[8] Therefore he that speaketh unrighteous things cannot be hid: neither shall vengeance, when it punisheth, pass by him.[9] For inquisition shall be made into the counsels of the ungodly: and the sound of his words shall come unto the Lord for the manifestation of his wicked deeds.

With malicious intent and misguided zeal the Inquisitions of the past demanded torture so that the sinners anguished confessions could echo before God back to themselves. Sick.
These same people took bits out of the Jesus words about removing sinful parts of your body as a justification for cutting off indigenous peoples body parts in the new world.
"Matthew.18:30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell."
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, as is a righteous sword in the hands of a fool.

Then there were the witches, recently there were the orphans. Tomorrow a fundamentalist Christianity/Religion will castigate somebody else somewhere. I am well aware of the perversion that exist within Christianity, and I thank you for this needful reminder, TRANSPONDER.

[boatsnguitars]

How many times have you protested a Hate Church? How many Christians have you told to stop being jerks? How many Christians have you told they are doing Christianity wrong?

Just out of curiosity and interest, what is a hate church, how many atheists have you told to stop being jerks and who is the arbiter of subjective Christian error?

I am not surprised you don't know what hate churches are, since, as I say often, theists have a poor grasp of moral values. I'm wondering if you're even aware of all the churches that spew all kinds of hate, and teach their followers to go into the world and do likewise?

I've told many atheists to stop being jerks. It's incumbent on me to do that to make atheism not defined by the jerks.
You could stand up and offer yourself as an arbiter. See how Christians respond. Maybe they call you a heretic and treat you like Servetus? Maybe you help repair the view of the Church? Or, maybe you are part of a hate church and don't want to?

I can't know your personal motivations and wouldn't suggest one or another. Just because you aren't aware of things, doesn't mean they don't exist.

[Data]

I am not surprised you don't know what hate churches are, since, as I say often, theists have a poor grasp of moral values.

I certainly have had since becoming a believer. Not so much anymore, though I'm working on it. Before becoming a theist, that is as an atheist I think I had a far better grasp on moral values, I suppose because I never asked questions back then. I became a believer at 27, followed by a long period in my life I call "The Dark Days." And they were dark, dark days indeed. Drugs, alcohol, promiscuous gay sex, violence, jail, and eventually isolation.

I'm wondering if you're even aware of all the churches that spew all kinds of hate, and teach their followers to go into the world and do likewise?

Well, a few points on that. First of all, yes, I'm aware of those. That's a big part of why I became a believer, secondly though, they, like you and I, are free to spew what they please and our response could only be hate reciprocated, so that would make us, a) stupid and b) the same as our enemy.

I've told many atheists to stop being jerks.

I don't believe you, but, whatever. See above.

It's incumbent on me to do that to make atheism not defined by the jerks.

Too late. We are all jerks. You are only talking about "jerks" from an ideological superiority or inferiority complex. The ideologue only wants everyone to be the jerk they are which only makes them another jerk. Blind to their own status as such. Self-unaware. Consumed by hypocrisy, ignorance and xenophobia. The stuff that makes the world go round and round.

You could stand up and offer yourself as an arbiter.

No.

See how Christians respond.

Don't care. Not that it would take a genius to know how that would turn out.

Maybe they call you a heretic and treat you like Servetus? Maybe you help repair the view of the Church?

Changing their view into my view wouldn't repair anything, it would only perpetuate it. How do you think it got into the state of disrepair it's in now? It wasn't by magic or cookin' the books, we save that for education.

Or, maybe you are part of a hate church and don't want to?

That I can assure you I am not. Or any other sociopolitical excuse for ignorance and intolerance.

I can't know your personal motivations and wouldn't suggest one or another. Just because you aren't aware of things, doesn't mean they don't exist.

[laughs]

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to Data in post #58]

I am happy that religion has proved a cure -all for you. Aside that 'Jesus saved me from the gutter' is a stock old Christian selling - ploy, it doesn't sell me a placebo cure for an illness I don't have, never mind for one that is misdiagnosed (Sin).

[otseng]

Moderator Comment

As a general reminder, please avoid making any personal comments.

Please review the Rules.





______________



Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.