CULTURAL CHRISTIANITY

[William]

Exploring the distinction between cultural identification with Christianity and living according to the teachings of Christ .
viewtopic.php?p=1126768#p1126768
From the link.

otseng. - Do you regularly talk with God and speak the same language with God?
- Is there a difference between how you live and what the Bible commands?
- Do you attend church and in fellowship with a community of believers?
- Do you know anything intimate about God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit?
- Is there any interaction with God and the church and reaching the lost?
- Do you hide your Christian convictions? Does anybody even know you're a Christian?
- Are you producing any godly fruit in your life?

____________
Reflecting on the Irony of the "Fraudulent Christian" Analogy

I appreciated the thoughtful comparison otseng made between the I-130 process for marriage-based immigration and the concept of being a "bona fide" Christian. It's a striking analogy, and it does bring to light the importance of authenticity, whether in the eyes of the state or within one's spiritual life.
However, as I reflected on this analogy, I found that it opened the door to a larger conversation about the irony inherent in such comparisons, especially when we consider the broader history of Christianity.
If we look at the history of Christianity, particularly in contexts like the founding and expansion of America, we see that many of the methods used by those who called themselves Christians were far from the teachings of Jesus. Christianity, as a political force, was often employed in ways that contradict the very values attributed to Christ—values like humility, peace, and love for one's neighbor.
The acquisition of land through violent conquest, the displacement of Native peoples, and the subsequent production of wealth are examples that don’t align with Jesus' message.

This raises an interesting question: How does one reconcile the analogy of a "fraudulent Christian" with the historical record of Christianity itself? It seems that the term "Christian" became more of a political label than a spiritual one, and in that sense, the use of analogies like this one becomes somewhat ironic. The very institution of Christianity, as history shows, has often acted in ways that could be deemed inauthentic when compared to the teachings of Christ.

Further, it’s worth considering that Jesus never referred to his followers as Christians, nor did he establish the religious identity that later developed around his name. In fact, one might argue that Christianity, as an organized religion, has drifted so far from its original message that those who genuinely wish to follow Jesus' teachings would be better off not identifying as Christians at all.

So while otsengs' analogy makes sense in the context of individual believers, it inadvertently highlights a larger, more complex irony: that the institution of Christianity itself, through its entanglements with power and politics, could be seen as the very definition of a "fraudulent" representation of Christ's message.

Perhaps it's worth reflecting on how these contradictions play out, not only in the history of Christianity but also in the way the faith is practiced today. Does the modern-day Christian identity align with the simplicity and integrity of Jesus' original teachings? Or has it been shaped more by political and cultural forces that, over time, have distorted its core message?

Question for debate.

Are the majority of people who identify as Christians actually 'Cultural Christians,' and if so, are they at risk of being judged as 'fraudulent' by the very standards outlined in Matthew 7:21-23?

[Bible_Student]

Your interest in Christianity is intriguing, particularly because the phenomenon you're discussing appears in various philosophical and religious traditions globally. This ranges from apostate Christendom to the so-called atheist "ethics," the deceptive ecumenism of the Bahá'ís, the illusion of peace promised by the UN, and more.

As a Jehovah's Witness, I perceive "cultural Christianity" as unrelated to my beliefs. Jehovah's Witnesses view Christendom as just another worldly branch from which genuine followers of Christ must distance themselves.

[William]

....If Jesus didn’t say, “Follow the Bible,” what did he mean by “remaining in my word”? ...

I think it means that person remains in his teachings, don't replace them with own doctrines, as unfortunately many Christians seems to do. For example Jesus says God is greater than him, yet some say Jesus is as great. If one remains in word of Jesus, he keeps what Jesus said.

...

The disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.

Not by Jesus, they weren't. But what has that to do with the thread topic?

Just to show what a Christian means in the Bible.

You’re right that the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch, but the key point here is that they weren’t given that name by Jesus. This is important because it highlights how the movement shifted after Jesus' time.

The term "Christian" was coined by others who came later, and what we now see as "Christianity" has often followed a different path—one that has been associated with practices and doctrines far removed from the teachings of Jesus. This has contributed to what we now recognize as Cultural Christianity.

Moreover, "The Bible," as we have it today, was formulated through early Roman Catholic influence, and from that tradition sprang all the denominations we see today under the broad label of Cultural Christianity. This text, assembled by various groups after Jesus' time, can also be seen as part of the alternative path that veered from Jesus' original teachings.

If we focus on what Jesus actually taught—love, humility, and service—it becomes clear that many of the doctrines and practices developed later on, often in the name of Christianity, don’t always align with his message. So when we talk about remaining in Jesus’ word, we have to ask: Are we following his teachings, or are we adhering to a system that was built by others after him?

[Bible_Student]

Heb. 12:25, Luke 2:26, along with other passages that feature this Greek verb, demonstrate that χρηματίζω (the verb used to describe how Jesus' followers received their name) conveys the idea of an action guided by God's providence.

This suggests that no matter who initially coined the term, it was ultimately orchestrated under divine guidance.

[William]

Your interest in Christianity is intriguing, particularly because the phenomenon you're discussing appears in various philosophical and religious traditions globally. This ranges from apostate Christendom to the so-called atheist "ethics," the deceptive ecumenism of the Bahá'ís, the illusion of peace promised by the UN, and more.

As a Jehovah's Witness, I perceive "cultural Christianity" as unrelated to my beliefs. Jehovah's Witnesses view Christendom as just another worldly branch from which genuine followers of Christ must distance themselves.

I appreciate your perspective, but I think it’s important to acknowledge that no denomination, including Jehovah’s Witnesses, is exempt from the influence of Cultural Christianity. While the JWOrg may distance itself from "Christendom," it’s worth remembering that this organization is a relatively recent addition to the denominational landscape. It still relies heavily on the Bible, which was compiled by early Roman Catholics and interpreted for centuries through their priests.

The advent of the printing press, Protestantism, and the eventual shift toward allowing common people to interpret the (proclaimed) "Word of God" also played a significant role in shaping modern denominations, including Jehovah’s Witnesses. It’s not as if JWOrg has existed independently of this process or has a history completely apart from the broader currents of Cultural Christianity. In many ways, it is a product of those very same forces, just like other denominations.

When referring to "Christendom," I see it as synonymous with Cultural Christianity—the entire system of beliefs and practices that have evolved over time, often diverging from the core teachings of Jesus. Whether a denomination claims to be separate from this system or not, it’s still part of the same historical and cultural context.

So, the question remains: How do any of us, regardless of denomination, truly embody the teachings of Jesus without being entangled in the cultural and historical baggage that has shaped Christianity over the centuries?

[Bible_Student]

Your interest in Christianity is intriguing, particularly because the phenomenon you're discussing appears in various philosophical and religious traditions globally. This ranges from apostate Christendom to the so-called atheist "ethics," the deceptive ecumenism of the Bahá'ís, the illusion of peace promised by the UN, and more.

As a Jehovah's Witness, I perceive "cultural Christianity" as unrelated to my beliefs. Jehovah's Witnesses view Christendom as just another worldly branch from which genuine followers of Christ must distance themselves.

I appreciate your perspective, but I think it’s important to acknowledge that no denomination, including Jehovah’s Witnesses, is exempt from the influence of Cultural Christianity. While the JWOrg may distance itself from "Christendom," it’s worth remembering that this organization is a relatively recent addition to the denominational landscape. It still relies heavily on the Bible, which was compiled by early Roman Catholics and interpreted for centuries through their priests.

The advent of the printing press, Protestantism, and the eventual shift toward allowing common people to interpret the (proclaimed) "Word of God" also played a significant role in shaping modern denominations, including Jehovah’s Witnesses. It’s not as if JWOrg has existed independently of this process or has a history completely apart from the broader currents of Cultural Christianity. In many ways, it is a product of those very same forces, just like other denominations.

When referring to "Christendom," I see it as synonymous with Cultural Christianity—the entire system of beliefs and practices that have evolved over time, often diverging from the core teachings of Jesus. Whether a denomination claims to be separate from this system or not, it’s still part of the same historical and cultural context.

So, the question remains: How do any of us, regardless of denomination, truly embody the teachings of Jesus without being entangled in the cultural and historical baggage that has shaped Christianity over the centuries?

I totally understand how you view this matter from your own human point of view.

From a biblical perspective, the end times are expected to witness a revival of God's people, though that's a topic for another discussion.

For now, it's crucial to understand that the people of God emerging in the last days must be completely detached from human institutions. Their hope lies in the Kingdom of Christ, which is destined to provide humanity with the conditions it fervently desires—conditions that have eluded mankind despite countless promises from age-old institutions.

It's clear that the modern followers of God should prioritize the Kingdom of God over human endeavors. This focus does not diminish their concern for humanity's welfare. Instead, it places the fulfillment of their hopes in God's hands, rather than in those of humans.

[William]

Heb. 12:25, Luke 2:26, along with other passages that feature this Greek verb, demonstrate that χρηματίζω (the verb used to describe how Jesus' followers received their name) conveys the idea of an action guided by God's providence.

This suggests that no matter who initially coined the term, it was ultimately orchestrated under divine guidance.

Suggestiveness is indeed an historical tactic, but we are looking for proof positive, not unsupported acclamations.
Thank you for providing that scriptural insight, but I think it’s important to differentiate between suggestiveness and concrete evidence. While the Greek verb χρηματίζω might suggest divine guidance, suggestion alone doesn’t amount to proof. What we’re looking for here is proof positive—something more than an unsupported acclamation or interpretation of scripture.

Throughout history, many actions have been justified by suggesting divine approval, but that doesn’t necessarily make them right or aligned with the teachings of Jesus. The broader question remains: Even if the term "Christian" was divinely inspired, does that justify the actions carried out under that label, particularly when those actions contradict the values Jesus taught? We need more than suggestion; we need to critically examine the historical and cultural context and how it aligns with Jesus' actual teachings.

[William]

Your interest in Christianity is intriguing, particularly because the phenomenon you're discussing appears in various philosophical and religious traditions globally. This ranges from apostate Christendom to the so-called atheist "ethics," the deceptive ecumenism of the Bahá'ís, the illusion of peace promised by the UN, and more.

As a Jehovah's Witness, I perceive "cultural Christianity" as unrelated to my beliefs. Jehovah's Witnesses view Christendom as just another worldly branch from which genuine followers of Christ must distance themselves.

I appreciate your perspective, but I think it’s important to acknowledge that no denomination, including Jehovah’s Witnesses, is exempt from the influence of Cultural Christianity. While the JWOrg may distance itself from "Christendom," it’s worth remembering that this organization is a relatively recent addition to the denominational landscape. It still relies heavily on the Bible, which was compiled by early Roman Catholics and interpreted for centuries through their priests.

The advent of the printing press, Protestantism, and the eventual shift toward allowing common people to interpret the (proclaimed) "Word of God" also played a significant role in shaping modern denominations, including Jehovah’s Witnesses. It’s not as if JWOrg has existed independently of this process or has a history completely apart from the broader currents of Cultural Christianity. In many ways, it is a product of those very same forces, just like other denominations.

When referring to "Christendom," I see it as synonymous with Cultural Christianity—the entire system of beliefs and practices that have evolved over time, often diverging from the core teachings of Jesus. Whether a denomination claims to be separate from this system or not, it’s still part of the same historical and cultural context.

So, the question remains: How do any of us, regardless of denomination, truly embody the teachings of Jesus without being entangled in the cultural and historical baggage that has shaped Christianity over the centuries?

I totally understand how you view this matter from your own human point of view.

From a biblical perspective, the end times are expected to witness a revival of God's people, though that's a topic for another discussion.

For now, it's crucial to understand that the people of God emerging in the last days must be completely detached from human institutions. Their hope lies in the Kingdom of Christ, which is destined to provide humanity with the conditions it fervently desires—conditions that have eluded mankind despite countless promises from age-old institutions.

It's clear that the modern followers of God should prioritize the Kingdom of God over human endeavors. This focus does not diminish their concern for humanity's welfare. Instead, it places the fulfillment of their hopes in God's hands, rather than in those of humans.

You’ve raised an important perspective about waiting for God’s judgment and focusing on God’s Kingdom. However, I’m curious about how this belief aligns with what Jesus said about the Kingdom of God. Jesus emphasized that the work begins within the human psyche, with the transformation of our inner selves, and that this would manifest in the objective world around us. This suggests that, rather than sitting back and waiting for God’s judgment, Jesus commanded action—building a reality based on the principles he taught.

In light of this, how does the stance of waiting for God’s intervention align with the teachings of Jesus, who encouraged active participation in the world? For instance, while Jehovah’s Witnesses refrain from voting as part of distancing themselves from "worldly" systems, they still pay taxes, which means they’re supporting the very systems they claim to be detached from. Doesn’t this suggest that they are more integrated into the iniquity Jesus spoke of than they may realize?

I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on how this balance is navigated within your beliefs.

[1213]

...."The Bible," as we have it today, was formulated through early Roman Catholic influence,...

I disagree with that, expect maybe in some translations. If it would be true in all translations, we would not know the difference between Jesus and church doctrines.

[William]

...."The Bible," as we have it today, was formulated through early Roman Catholic influence,...

I disagree with that, expect maybe in some translations. If it would be true in all translations, we would not know the difference between Jesus and church doctrines.

Thank you for your response. I see that there may be a point of clarification needed here. When I referred to 'early Roman Catholic influence,' I was speaking about the broader influence of the early Christian Church—the unified body that existed prior to the formal schism between what would later become the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church.

You’re correct that Roman Catholicism, as we understand it today, did not directly influence the creation of the Bible. However, the early church—before the Great Schism—was responsible for the councils that helped form the biblical canon, and this early church eventually evolved into what became Roman Catholicism in the West.

In that sense, those of us in the West have been most influenced by the Roman side of that divide, as much of our tradition, interpretation, and practice stems from that particular branch of early Christianity. So while the early councils that shaped the Bible were ecumenical (representing the whole Christian Church), the Western Church—what eventually became Roman Catholicism—has had a dominant influence in the West.

To clarify, my point was that much of what we now understand as Cultural Christianity has its roots in this early church history, particularly through the Roman tradition, but I certainly agree that the Bible was not shaped solely by Roman Catholic influence.