Masturbation: A sin?

[whatever]

I just saw a television discussion about it, what is the Christian believe?

[scorpia]

Falling in love without physically desiring someone isnt just possible.

So now it's impossible to fall in love with someone who couldn't be physically desirable?

But having that thought in the first place itself is a sin.Even having that thought for 1 second is being disrespectful and a sin according to you.Brushing away it is fine.But even thinking about that might be a sin.

Yeah, but why is it a sin? As far as I can guess, it's because it would insult (hurt) the person. And I am doing best not to hurt anyone

Then you have to implement your concept in your life.First of all henceforth you should not even think sexually about a male in your whole life.If that thought crosses your mind even once about a male (who is not your would be or husband) you have to confess it to him.can you implement it?Can you practice what you preach?

I try to. And I can see how telling anyone forthright may seem off. But eventually you will have to admit it, somehow.

so why not confess to him as you argue?

Haven't seen him in ages. And even if I did meet him....... okay maybe it shouldn't simply be said outright. But it will come up sometime, and then I might as well admit it

in my whole life I havent heard of a girl finding it out unless the man himself told her or is being foolish enough to keep her photo or something with him

Okay maybe this guy was foolish

I visit porn sites often and i dont think its offense under law

No, it isn't. But still you get spyware that traces down you web surfing patterns so someone out there would know you go there. Nothing is private anymore. Nothing.

And fox shows catching during infidelty????Thats pretty illegal.If anyone snoops into my private affairs hes gonna sued to his last penny.

What can I say? I simply saw it on fox

.And I dont talk about my private fantasies to anyone.Most of the people in world are like that.

Yes people do. Guys would sometimes say to each other 'yeah she's hot I wanna............' and stuff

if hes so fooliosh enough to be caught like this...then also no problem.If i were that boy i would answer the girl like this"if you havent fantasized on any guy in your whole life for not even a milli second,then punish me..."

Okay maybe the boy was foolish. But still the girl wouldn't understand. She wouldn't have had fantasies at that age, now, would she?

you cant.why waste your energy and efforts?

to stop hurting others

[worship-your-mother-she-i]

Yeah, but why is it a sin? As far as I can guess, it's because it would insult (hurt) the person. And I am doing best not to hurt anyone

But you cannot.That is the truth.

Haven't seen him in ages. And even if I did meet him....... okay maybe it shouldn't simply be said outright. But it will come up sometime, and then I might as well admit it]/quote]

do you fantasize on only 1 person in your llife?comeon.

What can I say? I simply saw it on fox

its doctored program.participants agreed to be snooped

you cant.why waste your energy and efforts?
to stop hurting others

you arent.

[scorpia]

Is that relationship devoid of sex?How many such relationships which are devoid of sex you have seen?

Did I say there is anything wrong with sex in a relationship?

do you fantasize on only 1 person in your llife?comeon.

Erm well not many..... well usually it's a faceless fantasy man I make up

[quote="scorpia]you cant.why waste your energy and efforts?
to stop hurting others

you arent.[/quote]
So what should I do? Give up and knowingly accept I hurt others? I cannot

[vanillamoon]

HEY! What did I say about guilt and sex being mixed!?

[Gangstawombatninja]

Falling in love without physically desiring someone isnt just possible.

Friendship is emotional. A heterosexual can fall in love with a person of the same gender--emotionally--without being sexually attracted to them. Or homosexual with person of opposite gender, of course. Love isn't entirely physical, although the physical is just as legitamate as emotional love. Ya got love for a pet and family and friends that usually and two former that usually fall under the category of purely emotional. "Falling" in love denotes complete and utter adoration, total love. You can have that purely on an emotional level.

My contention: agrees with Corvus. Masturbation is moral and healthy, but can, of course, become blase.

The day the Hebrews turned from agriculture was the day all their beliefs changed. Civilisation is based around agriculture. Mythologies based around agriculture are very different than nonagricultural societies. In civilised (not meaning to denote superiority, just presence of cities) outlooks shaped by agriculture hope was to be found in the physical. Religion is all about giving people hope for life after death. When the early Hebrew ceased to see the hope present in the physical world around them--that death feeds life, the death of one is the life of another, nourishes the soil, circle of life type of thing--they turned from the physical to the spiritual, finding no hope in the former any more. Upon abandoning agriculture and life based around the care and reverence for the rebirth of the spiritual, the enitere philosophy of Hebrews changed.

The physical became base and the spiritual became the only purity. Also with the abandonment of agriculture and Mother Earth came the debasemment of not only man but also nature. This abandonment through everthing out of balance and destroyed true unity of connection. The Old Testament emphases the seperation of the hiearchy between God and man and nature, each more base and than the former. In abandoning the rebirth of Earth we lost our connection with Mother Nature as well as the spiritual in some senses. The Hebrew developed an outlook that placed us above nature, even though we are a part of nature, a part of the ecosystem and contributes our phosphorus to the earth when we die. And placed God as a being removed from humanity even though God is the within us, our spirit being the presence of God. And in abandoning the rebirth to be found in the feminine of Earth came the violence (Joshua and Judges, YHWH commanding His chosen people to slaughter the pagans) and superiority (my way is the only way) and bigotry (inherent in tribal society is the stigmatization of alternate life styles--everyone needs to be straight and contribute to baby-making for the survival and strength of the tribe) evidenced in the Old Testement by an prevailing and out of balance form of masculine worhip.

And that's why the Hebrew turned to the spiritual and away from the physical; because they abandoned agriculture. Judao-Christian thought places low esteem on the physical and utmost importance on the spiritual (out of balance). And coming with the regarding of sex as wrong (the power of which lies with the feminine) is the sexist bull to found it Ecclestiates ch 7.

More bitter than death is woman and God loves mean who distance themselves from her for he is more righteous

. All this crap about all women being tempters trying to snare men with their nets and imprisoning men with their fetters.

There is a quote from a sci-fi called I, Weapon by Charles E. Runyon. The guy lands on a alien planet and, basically, gets rid of these sentient parasite brain worms that "possessed" each leader of the race (Vim). After vanquishing those worms, the Vim didn't know how to govern themselves. The following is what the main character was thinking as they looked to him for guidance.

I resisted the temptation to lay down a set of moral commandments. Their only effect would have been to add a burden of guilt to the already carefree natures of the Vim, without improving their character to the slightest degree. I had no doubt that tribe would hence forth regard itself as the Chosen One, and would probably end up making life miserable for themselves and others. But I saw no way to avoid it.

And in Tom Robbin's Another Road Side Attraction. (This one's long):

Whether a man is a criminal or a public servant is purely a matter of perspective. Man's peculiarly ambivalent psyche permits him to operate according to two apposing codes. There is the code which he professes to live by, and there is the code to whose standards he actually does adhere. The deceit is so ingrained and subtle that most men are truly unaware of it, although to psychologists, philosophers and the like, it is no news at all.
Man is not as good as he thinks he is. (Nor as bad, for that matter, but let's not complicate things). He has certain needs, demands certain services which in reality are probably healthy and natural, but which in time's passage and as a result of odd quirks in his ethos, he has ascribed (or allowed his religious leaders--often guilt-warped, psychopathic misfits--to ascribe) negative values. In the queerest of paradoxical metamorphoses, honest decent desires change ito taboos.
To simply "say" that a desire is immoral--or, resorting to even flimsier abstraction, to deem the fulfillment of a desire illegal--does not eliminate the desire. It does not eliminate anything except straightforwardness. It creates, in addition to a climate of deception, an underworld into which men "descend" in order to partake of Code B services not permitted under the provisions of Code A. Society hires armed goons to forcce itself to conform to Code A, but a greater sum of money is spent each year in the surreptitious enjoyment of the services provided by Code B. The underworld persists because society needs it, insists upon it, supports it (at the same time it denies and persecutes it, or course.
But enough of that. Let's simply say that according to Code A, Plucky Percel--drug dealer and abortionist's agent--is a criminal. Under the reality of Code B, however, he is the dutifully serving the interests of his fellow man.

In summation, lust and sexual urges, which compel us to mate and allow the continuation of life by an ongoing contribution to the great tapestry of Mother Nature, are ingrained in our dna and our most basic psychological compulsions. As in all things necessary to life (eating, sleeping, forming bonds of trust (friendship)) we enjoy sex (and by mixing this medium with friendship we get love). It is something that no amount of "brainwashing" (no offense intended, just trying to get a person to think contrary to way in which the do naturally) that is going to make us not value and enjoy sex. Attaching connotations of guilt to this solves nothing. Those sexual desires, ESSENTIAL TO LIFE, remain. Guilt, in this case, toward something natural and postive, negative. Guilt is always a negative emotion but in reference to effect. Not allowing sexual freedom and the stigmatizing something so natural and essential to life and happy (what is more good than joy? with perfect happiness, what else is there to tempt us with?) only perpetuates negative emotions which manifest themselves in negative ways like frustration and anger. Sex is essential not only to physical but also emotional development. It is a source which people find great happiness in, which is all a person really wants. By being denied this a their frustration at something so heavy upon psychological desire can force a person to find happiness in alternate, less productive ways which inflict suffering.

Masturbation is not a sin. Neither is sex. Sex can be perverted to inflict suffering as in rape but it remains a thing of beauty, the miracle which bring life into being. Masturbation can be over-indulged to the point of encroaching upon blase. But in moderation and positive application they both natural things and things which are a part of who we are, no aspect of which should be denied.

[aprilannies]

...no one can masterbate and think of mowing the lawn it is impossible...

I disagree. It is quite possible to masturbate and not think of people OR things but merely sensation.

It is still far better than keeping it in secret and having the girls find out anyway

Quote:
women dont if men masturbate on them because they too do the same thing

Yes, they are cheating too. Thanks a lot, I stop lusting after youse to respect you guys. I'd really doubt you'd want me masturbating over you. I am NOT going to do that. You will be offended, and rightly so. And I will still dislike this fantasizing, yes, even if i do the same thing, because I know it's wrong, and I have as little excuse as the men. Even if they do lust after me, I would still not do the same to them because it would be disrespecting them. "

Could you please explain how private thoughts disclosed to no one come back and get you? Last time I checked the human race was not equipped with telepathy. YOU may feel guilty and therefore feel the need to confess your 'lust' to whoever has caused it, but without your confession (unless your guilty behavior demonstrates it) the object of your lust can have no idea.

I, on the other hand, have no guilt issues with masturbation. I don't feel guilty because I don't think that I've done anything wrong. Therefore I feel no need to apologize to people that I've fantasized about. Furthermore it doesn't bother me when/if men fantasize about me. Mainly, because 99% of the time I have no idea it has occurred. My guess is the same may happen to you.

Another question, slightly related do you get offended when men check you out? I'm not talking about openly gaping and making obscene gestures. I'm talking about maybe turning heads and receiving smiles. Is that offensive? If you turn your head to take another look at an attractive man/woman is that not lust in a tiny way?

[scorpia]

Could you please explain how private thoughts disclosed to no one come back and get you? Last time I checked the human race was not equipped with telepathy. YOU may feel guilty and therefore feel the need to confess your 'lust' to whoever has caused it, but without your confession (unless your guilty behavior demonstrates it) the object of your lust can have no idea.

Presuming the case where you tell no-one ever ever, there is still the possibility of someone noticing the way you may obsess over someone, eg. body language

But still i wonder why should it matter if they find out or not? If you're doing something that may hurt someone even if they may not find out about it, you shouldn't do it.

Therefore I feel no need to apologize to people that I've fantasized about. Furthermore it doesn't bother me when/if men fantasize about me.

](*,) I was at first trying to show how lust could possibly be a harm

The thing with me is, (and maybe it is just me) that I do get offended at the thought, and as such, I'd expect others to get offended of me, so I should simply stop

Mainly, because 99% of the time I have no idea it has occurred. My guess is the same may happen to you.

My guess is that it has not

Another question, slightly related do you get offended when men check you out? I'm not talking about openly gaping and making obscene gestures. I'm talking about maybe turning heads and receiving smiles. Is that offensive? If you turn your head to take another look at an attractive man/woman is that not lust in a tiny way?

I'm sorry I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean when some person may smile at you as a shy way of saying hi, or smiling at a person because they look like a nice (behaved) person. If so I don't see how that could be lust

[aprilannies]

Could you please explain how private thoughts disclosed to no one come back and get you? Last time I checked the human race was not equipped with telepathy. YOU may feel guilty and therefore feel the need to confess your 'lust' to whoever has caused it, but without your confession (unless your guilty behavior demonstrates it) the object of your lust can have no idea.

Presuming the case where you tell no-one ever ever, there is still the possibility of someone noticing the way you may obsess over someone, eg. body language

But still i wonder why should it matter if they find out or not? If you're doing something that may hurt someone even if they may not find out about it, you shouldn't do it.

I spoke of thoughts not obsession. There's a HUGE difference. Furthermore, what if you don't know the person, what if it's a movie star? I think that most people who fantasize about movie stars do not become stalkers, so please don't suggest that.

I'm sorry I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean when some person may smile at you as a shy way of saying hi, or smiling at a person because they look like a nice (behaved) person. If so I don't see how that could be lust

It may not be lust in and of that moment, but who's to say it won't turn to that later, without your knowing it. Is someone who masturbates, in the privacy of their own home misbehaving?

[scorpia]

Furthermore, what if you don't know the person, what if it's a movie star? I think that most people who fantasize about movie stars do not become stalkers,

Most people who fantasize over a movie star often tend to have a degree of immaturity. Then again you may see this with your own POV. I shouldn't be one to judge anyway, but if it were myself, I'd see myself as stupid.

Is someone who masturbates, in the privacy of their own home misbehaving?

a. I'm not talking about masturbating here
b. I could ask you the same question. If you thought of someone fantasizing over you at some point, wouldn't you be disturbed?

And though it may be possible for you not to be disturbed, what if someone was instead fantasizing over someone you cared about?

[aprilannies]

Most people who fantasize over a movie star often tend to have a degree of immaturity. Then again you may see this with your own POV. I shouldn't be one to judge anyway, but if it were myself, I'd see myself as stupid.

Perhaps, but we were talking about fantasy hurting others. You stated earlier, it was inevitable that people find out about all fantasy, whether disclosed or not. Yes, I too would feel dumb fantasizing about specific movie stars.

Is someone who masturbates, in the privacy of their own home misbehaving?

a. I'm not talking about masturbating here

What is the subject of this thread then?

b. I could ask you the same question. If you thought of someone fantasizing over you at some point, wouldn't you be disturbed?

I've had ex's (after we were ex's) tell me that I occasionally still graced their fantasies. It's not something that has ever troubled me. It would trouble me if their outward behavior became obsessive and deranged, but this has never been the case.

And though it may be possible for you not to be disturbed, what if someone was instead fantasizing over someone you cared about?

I've honestly put thought into this situation. I don't think that it would. If I knew telepathically or something that my husband's ex-wife still fantasized over him, I can't say it would cause me any worry or emotional damage. If she came out and told him and tried to seduce him, THAT would bother me, but I think that's a whole different ball game.

If it was someone like my sister, I might be disturbed, but more for the reason that *I* don't want to think of my sister that way, not so much that I mind that OTHER people do, as long as they are not plotting to rape or cause her any other physical or emtional harm.