Proving God by proving the Bible

[RBD]

Since the God of the Bible says He cannot be proven nor found apart from His words, such as by physical sight, signs, philosophy, science, etc... then it is not possible to given any proof of the true God in heaven, apart from His words. Indeed, He says such seeking of proof is unbeliefe, vain, and decietful.

1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Luk 16:31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


Therefore, the only way to prove God is, and He is the God of the Bible, is to prove the Bible is true in all things. So, without sounding 'preachy' by only using God's words to prove Himself, then we can prove the Bible must be His proof by proving there is no contradiction between any of His words.

Proof that there is a God in heaven, and He is the Lord God of the Bible, is by the inerrancy of His words written by so many men, so many generations apart.

I propose to prove the God of the Bible is true, but proving there is no contradiction of His words of doctrine, and prophecy. If anyone believes there is a contradction, then let's see it. Otherwise, the Bible is perfectly true as written: The Creator of heaven and earth, and all creatures in heaven and on earth, is the Lord God of the Bible.

[RBD]

Even if we were to grant that there are no things in the bible which contradict other things in the bible - there are things outside of the bible which contradict things in the bible.

The sun standing still is one such thing...

The sun not standing still does not contradict the Bible record of the sun standing still at that battleground. It would only contradict the Bible, if the sun were not standing still at that time and place.

The sun standing still without the natural consequences, does contradict presently known natural law. But then, the Creator and Maker of all natural things, in the Bible records can temporarily altar natural events and their consequences. Including ending this known natural universe by sudden melting fire and fervent heat. (2 Peter 3)

Proving a text has no contradictions only proves it is internally consistent - not that it is true, divinely inspired, or that its God exists. A perfectly consistent novel, legal code, or mythological system would pass the same test.

You either overlook or dismiss the added context unique to the Bible: It's not written by one writer, nor at one time, nor in one place, but rather by many writers over thousands of years from many places. The possibility of all the writers being perfectly united without internal error, makes their untied claim of writing for the same perfect God and Christ, more believable than any other book written by one writer in one lifetime.

Psa 45:1
My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue is the pen of a ready writer.

2Pe 1:20
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Act 14:15
And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:

All anyone as to remember is the problem of many people in one room at one time in a circle, passing on one simple statement, and getting it perfectly correct from the first to the last in line:

Jhn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Rev 22:20
He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Rev 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.


The Word Jesus Christ is the first and last perfect Author of the Bible from beginning to end. Anyone that wants to disprove that, can just show one single irreconcilable error in between. (Other than typos, of course)

[OneJack]

[Replying to RBD in post #1]

If anyone believes there is a contradction, then let's see it. Otherwise, the Bible is perfectly true as written.

Gen. 2:17. But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

This verse is wrong in its final clause [shaded in red] - ‘for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.’ Adam did not die, so was Eve, on the day after eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.

Ignorance and/or disbelief in the spiritual teaching of the Book, is no excuse for not accounting for it.

Ezek 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Col 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

The Bible is the doctrine of the Spirit of God. Separating the record from the doctrine, is separating Scripture from context of Scripture, in order to find fault, that is not there.

There are plenty of spiritually dead sinners, that at least understand the spiritual teaching of a soul being dead by by doing evil. Indeed, the world speaks of the evil-doers as being dead 'on the inside'...

And it's too obvious to rule out spiritual death of the soul in that same day, since the Bible later records Adam's physical death about 900 years after eating the fruit.

I.e. you're not a serious person in this flimsy charge of Bible errancy. I was hoping for something with the challenge.

What challenge are you talking about? Without coming to Jesus, you can't see any errors in the bible since you're totally obsessed and influenced by it from head to foot.

[RBD]

viewtopic.php?p=1136343#p1136343

(/Å\) Think outside the box

AI: This appears to be a transcript of a channeled or meditative dialogue, written in a poetic, philosophical style, between a user identified as “Medium (Entity)” and “The Voice of Christ.”

Or, as the Scriptures say, it is the true God and Christ speaking directly by His Spirit to someone recording His exact words without error.

Trying to fit it into someone's personal poetic, philosophic, or 'channeling' imagination, has no bearing on the words written in the Book, nor alters their specific dictation and meaning.

Here is a summary of the key ideas presented:

Core Argument:
The dialogue challenges why the Bible is granted “special rules” or privileged treatment when evaluating spiritual truth, arguing that direct, personal, internal experience should be equally valid.

I don't know of any special rules nor privileged treatment of the Bible, other than the inerrancy of all the writers thereof over thousands of years. That's earned honor given to whom honor due:

Rom 13:7
Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

Therefore, anyone giving personal experience and insight, that contradicts any witness of the Book, is against all the witnesses writing in the Book. Especially if a new 'revelation' is claimed to be from the same God and Christ of the Bible. That makes the new 'revelator' contradict the Bible God and Christ.

If anyone is claiming to witness for the God and Christ of the Bible, and contradicts the words of the Bible, then his claim is false. What they heard or saw could no doubt have happened, but just not from the God and Christ of the Bible:

Gal 1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Overall Theme:
The passage argues for replacing external, Bible-centered authority with internal, direct, and communal spiritual experience—essentially answering the opening question (”Why give the Bible special rules?”) by asserting that personal, subjective communion with the divine is a sufficient and valid alternative.

Choosing to listen to and follow words contradicting the Bible, is choosing to believe and obey another Christ, than Jesus Christ of the Bible:

Mark 13:22
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

2Co 11:13
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Conclusion: No one needs to doubt the experience, voice, nor revelation happening as claimed. It's just not the voice, angel, nor Spirit of the true God Jesus Christ.

The challenge is not a matter of personal spiritual and revelatory experiences, but rather who shined that light: God or Satan. Angel of God or fallen angel. Jesus Christ or false Christ.

Mat 6:23
If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

I have no doubt that Muhammed got his Koran, and Smith got His Book of Mormon from angels. Just not angels of God and Jesus Christ. Why? Because they contradict the words of God and Jesus Christ in their own written Book.

How do I know the Bible is God's own one Book written on earth? Because only the God claimed by all those writers could given them the unerring words they all wrote over thousands of years. No great mystery nor special revelational and spiritual insight: Just honour given to whom honour due...

[RBD]

Ezek 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Col 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

And it's too obvious to rule out spiritual death of the soul in that same day, since the Bible later records Adam's physical death about 900 years after eating the fruit.

I.e. you're not a serious person in this flimsy charge of Bible errancy. I was hoping for something with the challenge.

What challenge are you talking about? Without coming to Jesus, you can't see any errors in the bible since you're totally obsessed and influenced by it from head to foot.
[/quote]
So, your great coming to Christ outside of the Bible, makes you spiritually blind to the death of transgressing the commandments of the Bible.

Not surprising for someone seeking a Christ outside the Bible, who will justify transgressing the commandments of the Bible God and Jesus Christ.

Pretty much the promised dead end warned of in the Bible:

2Co 4:3
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


In any case, unless you have a serious challenge to Bible inerrancy, then I'm moving on.

[OneJack]

Ezek 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Col 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

And it's too obvious to rule out spiritual death of the soul in that same day, since the Bible later records Adam's physical death about 900 years after eating the fruit.

I.e. you're not a serious person in this flimsy charge of Bible errancy. I was hoping for something with the challenge.

What challenge are you talking about? Without coming to Jesus, you can't see any errors in the bible since you're totally obsessed and influenced by it from head to foot.

So, your great coming to Christ outside of the Bible, makes you spiritually blind to the death of transgressing the commandments of the Bible.

You/I/We/They can only be spiritually alive by coming to the Lord Jesus, calling on Him, and listening to Him when He responds. Other than this will surely incapacitate you spiritually even if you read and meditate on your bible day and night. The bible is a book of testimonies to Jesus; testimonies that the Lord truly exists, so that we may come to Him to have salvation and eternal life.

Not surprising for someone seeking a Christ outside the Bible, who will justify transgressing the commandments of the Bible God and Jesus Christ.

Where did you get the notion of 'Christ inside the bible' from? Christ is everything, and He is omnipresent. Why do you keep on locking the Lord Jesus Christ up in the pages of the bible, which is not Jesus in the first place?

In any case, unless you have a serious challenge to Bible inerrancy, then I'm moving on.

How could your eyes see when you were not yet hearing anything from the Lord Jesus Christ? Even if a truckload of evidence were given to you in this regard, you would still see nothing erratic in the bible since you were totally obsessed with it in your whole life.

[William]

[Replying to RBD in post #551]

The sun not standing still does not contradict the Bible record of the sun standing still at that battleground. It would only contradict the Bible, if the sun were not standing still at that time and place.

The sun standing still without the natural consequences, does contradict presently known natural law. But then, the Creator and Maker of all natural things, in the Bible records can temporarily altar natural events and their consequences. Including ending this known natural universe by sudden melting fire and fervent heat. (2 Peter 3)

This is the classic "miracle" defense — an omnipotent God can do anything, so external science doesn't constrain biblical claims.

By such reasoning, this thread is a pointless waste of time.

You either overlook or dismiss the added context unique to the Bible: It's not written by one writer, nor at one time, nor in one place, but rather by many writers over thousands of years from many places. The possibility of all the writers being perfectly united without internal error, makes their untied claim of writing for the same perfect God and Christ, more believable than any other book written by one writer in one lifetime.

What I do see is that readers themselves do not agree with this collection of writings which points to the probability that the writers would have also disagreed with each other had they known one another.

The Word Jesus Christ is the first and last perfect Author of the Bible from beginning to end. Anyone that wants to disprove that, can just show one single irreconcilable error in between. (Other than typos, of course)

Bible worshippers are an odd lot. It is as if they believe that without the Bible, God could not exist. Even the thread Heading implies that. I don't know why there are folk such as yourself that cannot believe God exists without all this hue and cry about the bible.

The unspoken assumption behind threads like this is that The Creator is so poorly evidenced that SHe needs a perfect book to prop HEr up. Take the book away, and the whole enterprise collapses and they have nothing in the way of relationship.

But that assumption is itself a confession of weakness. A real GOD - one who created quasars, individuate consciousness, and quantum mechanics - doesn't need a flawless ancient anthology to prove SHe's there. The fact that believers feel compelled to defend the Bible's every jot and tittle (but in your case excluding typos) suggests they've already lost confidence in the underlying reality.

Why the mature don't need that is because "God" - whatever that word points to - is not a proposition to be proved or a text to be defended. It's the ground of being, the mystery at the heart of existence, the "I AM" before any words about I AM. The Bible can be full of myths, contradictions, and human projections, and that changes nothing for those who have relationship with that mystery.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #548]

Since you seem confused about what agreement means, verses erring contradiction, I give a simple example of three different verses separated throughout the Book, that still agree from beginning to end.

I say any and all Scriptures quoted about the same thing,will also agree from first to last.

Rev 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Hebrews{13:8}
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Quoting passages which agree doesn't harmonize passages which don't agree.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #549]

No Bible witnesses writing their accounts, conflict with each other. Therefore, all can be accepted as true.

This is simply a naked assertion which ignores evidence to the contrary.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #549]

In J. Smith's book, the 'witnesses' are not writing for themselves, but their witness is all written by one person, J Smith. Therefore, if the one writer is proven false, then all are false.

In 1 Corinthians 15:6, the "witnesses" are not writing for themselves, but their witness is all written by one person, Paul of Tarsus. Therefore, if the one writer is proven false, then all are false.

[RBD]

You/I/We/They can only be spiritually alive by coming to the Lord Jesus, calling on Him, and listening to Him when He responds.

No one transgressing the Lord's written commandments and disobeying His known will are coming, calling, listening to, nor obeying Him.

I'll no longer argue with your justification for disobedient transgressors.

Rom 2:3
And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

Especially where there are unbelievers, that know a self-justifying cop out, when they here it. Including when it's sweet-toothed with pretty sprinkles.

Rom 16:18
And by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

2Ti 2:19
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

I already knew how to live ungodly before repenting for Jesus. I don't need nor want to hear how to live ungodly in the name of Christ.

Mat 7:22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.