God didn't keep his words

[Compassionist]

In Genesis 2:16 and 17 the Bible (New International Version) says:
And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

If after eating the forbidden fruits, Adam and Eve died just as God had said, then that would have been just and consistent with God's Words. However, after Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruits, instead of just Adam and Eve just dying:
1. God evicted them from Eden.
2. God punished Eve and all her daughters (an estimated 54 billion and counting) with painful childbirths.
3. God evicted all the other species from Eden, too, and makes herbivores, parasites, carnivores and omnivores instead of making all the species non-consumers.
4. God punished humans with having to toil to survive.
5. God commanded humans to reproduce which leads to more suffering and death. Ruling over other creatures causes suffering and death to those creatures, too. "God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”" - Genesis 1:28, The Bible (NIV)

These acts are cruel and unjust and totally inconsistent with what God had said to Adam and Eve which was they would just die if they ate the forbidden fruits. God didn't keep his words to Adam and Eve.

I didn't ask to come into existence. No living thing does. I would have preferred it if I never existed. If God is real and actually did the things the Bible claims, then these cruel, unjust and inconsistent actions make the Biblical God evil.

[Compassionist]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #49]

100% Certainty

Yes, desirable, but unattainable in most fields. You gave examples and I showed why they failed as successful examples. You didn’t push back and show my reasons to be false, but try to turn to new examples. With your new examples, I don’t think you can be 100% certain, either.

What if the world was just created, as you are reading this, with those memories in place, but you didn’t actually do those things? Maybe it just appears that we are breathing the air, but we are actually hooked up to a computer simulation breathing something else, having these illusions. Now, do I think these are true? Not at all. But we cannot be literally 100% certain because the scenarios all have the exact same evidences that would result if they were true.

Genesis 2:16-17

Your interpretation is not the most simplest or obvious interpretation. Why couldn't you eat an egg right now? Would you feel bad? Sure. But you could choose to eat one (assuming you have access to one, even if with some effort).

Other issues

There is no point in talking about the other things you bring up before settling the three things we’ve already been talking about. We’ll both simply think the other is making the same kind of errors in new avenues and not meeting our critiques.

Solipsism is also unfalsifiable, but that doesn't mean it's true. The statements you make are interesting possibilities, but they are just unfalsifiable, untestable and ultimately pointless ideas. No sentient biological organism lives believing those things to be true. In terms of daily living, it's 100% certain that if you behead humans, they die. Just as it is 100% certain that I did a poo today, etc.

I wouldn't buy an egg, so I wouldn't have access to one. Even if you gave me one for free, I still wouldn't eat it. I would rather give it back to the chicken that laid it. Maybe then it will hatch into a fluffy chick. The reason I went vegan is that I want to avoid causing suffering and death. This deep desire to avoid causing suffering and death is produced by the interaction of my genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. If I had the genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences of my parents (and the billions of other omnivorous humans), I would not be able to have such a desire.

Why isn't my interpretation the simplest and the most obvious one?

Why would a God who is supposed to be omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent and the creator of the universe and all living things, command murder? The answer is that God didn't command murder. Liars and murderers made up a God who commanded genocides so that they could rob the lands of other people in their God's name as God's Chosen People. Think about it. These are self-serving lies.

"On the day the Lord gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the Lord in the presence of Israel:
“Sun, stand still over Gibeon,
and you, moon, over the Valley of Aijalon.
So the sun stood still,
and the moon stopped,
till the nation avenged itself on its enemies,
” - Joshua 10: 12 - 14, The Bible (New International Version).

Yet: "The LORD was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had chariots fitted with iron." - Judges 1:19, The Bible (New International Version).

So, this God made the sun stand still and the moon stand still so that his Chosen People could murder more, but couldn't defeat the people with chariots fitted with iron!

"The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.”" - Genesis 6:6,7, The Bible (New International Version). This is not the behaviour of an all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful being. Such beings, if they existed, would always make perfect choices and they would never regret anything.

These are the reasons I am 100% certain that the Biblical God is imaginary and evil.

I am not at all certain about whether or not a Theist or Deist or Pantheist or Panentheist God exists because such Gods are unfalsifiable. I am an agnostic atheist because I don't know if such Gods exist or not.

[The Tanager]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #61]

100% certainty

Yes, solipsism, the 5-minute universe, living in a simulation, aren’t the most rational positions to hold, but they aren’t 100% disprovable. So, no, it’s not 100% certain that you did a poo today, although it is the most reasonable thing to believe. If you disagree, show the 100% undeniable proof that the 5-minute universe view is false.

You also need to 100% prove that souls don’t exist for your claim that it’s “100% certain that if you behead humans, they die” where you defined die as “cease to exist”.

Genesis 2:16-17

We have been talking about this verse, not the other ones you later have brought up (although they are good ones to pursue, I just don’t think doing a ton of things at once is helpful). You claimed your hyper literal interpretation of these two verses (that God is saying Adam and Eve will cease to exist and nothing else will happen) was the simplest and most obvious. I gave reasons it wasn’t. Please respond to that before we talk of other verses.

God creating a world with suffering and death is wrong

I didn’t say you would eat the egg if you had one available to you, I said you could eat it. You absolutely could choose to eat it. Saying you would rather do something else is irrelevant. On top of this, your claim on this is unfalsifiable. Before you became a vegan, if we had this conversation while you were a hard determinist (whether you converted to hard determinism before or after becoming a vegan is irrelevant) you would say you were not able to have such a desire because of your genes, environment, etc. But now you can have that desire because of your genes, environment, etc. No matter what happens, you will simply say it’s because of your genes, environment, etc. You are just begging the question, not offering any support.

[Compassionist]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #61]

100% certainty

Yes, solipsism, the 5-minute universe, living in a simulation, aren’t the most rational positions to hold, but they aren’t 100% disprovable. So, no, it’s not 100% certain that you did a poo today, although it is the most reasonable thing to believe. If you disagree, show the 100% undeniable proof that the 5-minute universe view is false.

You also need to 100% prove that souls don’t exist for your claim that it’s “100% certain that if you behead humans, they die” where you defined die as “cease to exist”.

Genesis 2:16-17

We have been talking about this verse, not the other ones you later have brought up (although they are good ones to pursue, I just don’t think doing a ton of things at once is helpful). You claimed your hyper literal interpretation of these two verses (that God is saying Adam and Eve will cease to exist and nothing else will happen) was the simplest and most obvious. I gave reasons it wasn’t. Please respond to that before we talk of other verses.

God creating a world with suffering and death is wrong

I didn’t say you would eat the egg if you had one available to you, I said you could eat it. You absolutely could choose to eat it. Saying you would rather do something else is irrelevant. On top of this, your claim on this is unfalsifiable. Before you became a vegan, if we had this conversation while you were a hard determinist (whether you converted to hard determinism before or after becoming a vegan is irrelevant) you would say you were not able to have such a desire because of your genes, environment, etc. But now you can have that desire because of your genes, environment, etc. No matter what happens, you will simply say it’s because of your genes, environment, etc. You are just begging the question, not offering any support.

I think we have very different view of what is certain. There have been many beheadings on Earth. Every time a human has been beheaded, that human died. No exceptions. I am a human. Therefore, if you behead me, I will die. I am 100% certain of this. If you don't consider this line of reasoning to be sufficient, that's fine by me. By "ceasing to exit" I mean that their brain functions will stop and their sentience, personality, character, values, aspirations, etc. will cease to exist because these things are the product of brain functions which arise due to genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. By "ceasing to exist" I don't mean their dead body will vanish the way Yoda's body vanished when he died in Star Wars.

No, I couldn't choose to eat the egg because I wouldn't have the desire to do so. In fact, I feel horrified at the thought of it. If you had my genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences, you would think and feel as I do and vice versa. I don't have anything else to say. My time is precious, and I am not going to spend any more time on this forum. Thank you for all your posts. I wish you all the best.

[mms20102]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #63]

Thank you for the clarity in your parting message. I wish you well too.

However, I’d like to gently note that your deterministic framework—“if you had my genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences, you would think as I do”—is not as airtight as it may seem.

Identical twins are a perfect case study. They share genes. They grow up in the same home, often eat the same food, and experience similar environments. Yet over time, they often develop different personalities, values, and decisions. Why?

Because human consciousness isn’t a passive reaction to inputs. It involves choice, reflection, interpretation—and yes, free will.

Also, while beheading is a clinical way to show the link between the brain and consciousness, it doesn’t prove that the self or soul ceases to exist—only that observable functions stop. We don’t know what happens after. And unless we deny every metaphysical possibility, we can’t be 100% certain that cessation of brain activity equals total nonexistence of personhood.

That’s where the question of revelation and worldview enters. Not just logic, but meaning.

I respect your decision to move on from the forum, but if ever you return, I’ll be here—still open to discussing the deeper questions of consciousness, identity, and destiny.

[The Tanager]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #63]

You are definitely free to move on from this forum or just this discussion. I do appreciate your thoughts and challenges along the way. If you chose to respond or read the following, here are my thoughts:

Are you equivocating on "die"? Earlier you defined it as "cease to exist" which seemed to include one's soul not living on past the death of the body. Is that how you mean die or do you simply mean that the body experiences death?

If you mean "cease to exist", then please give the 100% proof that souls do not exist. If you mean the body dies, then all you are doing is defining the term and I already agreed that we can be 100% about definitions.

I do things I don't strongly desire to do (I just had a colonoscopy, for one). You can go against your desire, too, and eat an egg. You, 100% certain because I'm just working out the definition here, could try to eat an egg in spite of your strong desire against it and, unimpeded, would actually eat it.