“Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it.”

[Diogenes]

It is a common topic on this forum, variously phrased, that morality not only comes from God, but comes from the god 'I believe in.'
Christopher Hitchens famously challenged people to find a moral statement that could not be sincerely uttered by an atheist.
"No takers," he claimed.
Stated another way, Hitchens wrote, “Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it.”
― Christopher Hitchens
Conversely, Hitchens and many others can easily find many examples of immoral statements made in the name of God or of religion.

The question for debate is whether either of these statements can be refuted.

[TRANSPONDER]

To clarify, our pal probably knows very well that God and Satan are making a wager or 'bet' that Job can be turned (a bet he wins, incidentally) but appears to be playing the 'It does not use those exact words' gambit to score an irrelevant point.

Since I find the Theist rhetorical methods rather fascinating, while the point meant nothing, I'd love to know what the intent was. Something of the One Shot Win? "You were wrong about what color hat Samuel was wearing so you must be wrong about everything else"? To be able to scamper off with a final win, even if one that won nothing? I'd love to know.

[1213]

...
Perhaps you need to reread the entire book of Job?

I think it is good to read Bible often, but it seems to be exactly as I remember it. It was not a bet. God demonstrates that He knows better than Satan. Satan demonstrates that he doesn't know as well and in addition to that, he demonstrates that he is an evil torturer who is willing to makes people suffer just to win an petty argument. I believe God allowed it to give a lesson for all people about what kind of person Satan is. And He allowed that, because He knew Job can take it and will be compensated after it.

[1213]

...
If you think this, then why fight slavery? Why go to war with the Nazis? Why have a justice system at all? Why reach for better and more just conditions now? It'll all turn out right in the end.

Fighting can be done in many ways, ways that doesn't require being evil.

But, I think "Why go to war with the Nazis?" is a good question. I think all wars are pointless, after them people are under the control of tyrants anyway.

I think the Biblical idea is that people will be good and righteous. The goal is that in this life there happens change of "heart". And when it happens, it will also improve this life.

[1213]

....How would you like to start a thread on 'Why does the world look or work like there is as god there?' Or post some reasons (faithbased denial is not a reason) why.

To me world looks like God is there, because:
1. We have the Bible.
2. Life exists.
3. World works in very fine order.

It's for Christians - not me - to say whether a person or country is Christian or not. If they say they are Christian but none of them now or ever has been able to make Christianity work as it is supposed to - that is why 'Christianity has failed'.

If someone says he "tried to make Christianity work", I would like to hear what he means with it. In Finland many atheists call themselves Christians, there are even priests that tell they are atheists. Do you think it really is some how meaningful to call oneself Christian, if anyone can do so?

[Purple Knight]

...
If you think this, then why fight slavery? Why go to war with the Nazis? Why have a justice system at all? Why reach for better and more just conditions now? It'll all turn out right in the end.

Fighting can be done in many ways, ways that doesn't require being evil.

But, I think "Why go to war with the Nazis?" is a good question. I think all wars are pointless, after them people are under the control of tyrants anyway.

I think the Biblical idea is that people will be good and righteous. The goal is that in this life there happens change of "heart". And when it happens, it will also improve this life.

Doesn't the Bible also teach that if there is too much evil, so much that people are forced to be evil just to get along, nobody really has a chance to choose good? That's the reason for the flood, isn't it? And didn't God also say he would not flood the world again? It's worth considering that it's on us to make the world a better place, or at least, make it good enough that good is a viable choice.

The truth is probably that even Hitler thought he was doing right by putting his own first, and that intentional, pure, unabashedly cruel and completely selfish evil - I think JW calls this wickedness - is even rarer than that. I admit that depending on the reasoning involved, there are scenarios where I, as God, would put Hitler in Heaven. I have also met people... who... there is just no way they even thought they were doing good for anyone. They will not change and become righteous. If nobody fights them, they drag others down and make them evil, too.

[boatsnguitars]

...
Without that proof you'd have to admit that...

Why should I admit anything without proof?

You can't admit you don't have proof - if you don't have proof? That's remarkable (Christian) logic!

[brunumb]

God demonstrates that He knows better than Satan.

But his ego is so great that it is not enough to just know it. He allows innocent people to be totally destroyed in order to demonstrate his superiority over Satan. Surely a super intelligent and omni-benevolent being doesn't need to do that, or at least could have reasoned a more benign method of achieving the same outcome.

[brunumb]

To me world looks like God is there, because:
1. We have the Bible.
2. Life exists.
3. World works in very fine order.

Now you have to make a case demonstrating that none of those could exist without a god. Something that looks like a potato is not necessarily a potato.

[brunumb]

Doesn't the Bible also teach that if there is too much evil, so much that people are forced to be evil just to get along, nobody really has a chance to choose good? That's the reason for the flood, isn't it? And didn't God also say he would not flood the world again?

I wonder what course of action God would take if the world reached pre-flood levels of evil again. Killing seems to be his stock-in-trade option when things don't go his way.

[TRANSPONDER]

...
Perhaps you need to reread the entire book of Job?

I think it is good to read Bible often, but it seems to be exactly as I remember it. It was not a bet. God demonstrates that He knows better than Satan. Satan demonstrates that he doesn't know as well and in addition to that, he demonstrates that he is an evil torturer who is willing to makes people suffer just to win an petty argument. I believe God allowed it to give a lesson for all people about what kind of person Satan is. And He allowed that, because He knew Job can take it and will be compensated after it.

That certainly isn't how i remember it. Satan goads God into making a wager that if he is allowed to inflict pain on Job, his Faith will fail. In that it seems he is right. The justification is that God is the big boss and can do as he likes and he replaces Job's lost family with another one, so that supposedly makes it allright. It stinks. It isn't about Job, but about saving God;'s invisible face.

It sounds to me that, as is not uncommon, you are reading a Bible that exists in your own head, not the one printed on paper.