Please Make This Make Sense?

[POI]

According to John 20, Mary went to the tomb and finds it empty. It is clear that she is presented to be alone here, as John 20:1 only mentions Mary, and also that John 20:2 states that she ran, rather than stating that they ran. Alternatively, Matthew 28:1 states Mary was with another, and also that Matthew 28:8 states that they left.

Theists will argue, "well, some of these (small) details don't really matter. All that really matters is that Jesus was found missing and later appeared to others." For which a skeptic might reply... "It does matter because Christians argue that THIS collection of events is said to be the most important storyline presented within mankind's history. If the believers cannot even get the basic set of accounts consistent, then why should the skeptic lend credence to ANY of the Bible's claims?"

For debate: Since the Biblical accounting of events is not reliable, where it is argued to matter the most, (via the storyline surrounding a resurrection event), why should a skeptic still take this collection of books seriously?

[Richard Aberdeen]

[Replying to POI in post #1]

It appears that Mary arrived first and then the others. Often within the four narratives, one author reports only some of what another author reports. This is also true of modern trained reporters who are reporting on the same current events and, does not indicate deception or contradiction but rather, different people hear, see or recall different parts of the same event or as in the case of Luke, collect different information from different eyewitnesses, since Luke himself was not an eyewitness.

Here's another example. One account of Jesus on the cross mentions that he forgave one of the thieves. Another account doesn't mention this and says both thieves mocked Jesus, most likely because the second author didn't know about one thief repenting, while the other did. Apparently, both thieves originally mocked Jesus and then one repented and asked Jesus to "remember him" in heaven. One author knew about both thieves mocking but didn't know about one repenting, while the other author did.

If all four narratives of Jesus agreed on every single sentence, this would indicate deliberate deception. The fact that they often have different details indicates authenticity to any serious scholar.

[Richard Aberdeen]

[Replying to POI in post #3]

ALL four Jesus narratives differ in details regarding the same events. This is also true of trained reporters who are reporting on the same current events. If all four exactly agreed, this would indicate deliberate deception rather than authentic accounts. The fact they all four differ indicates authenticity to a legitimate scholar. Different witnesses of the same event often hear, see or recall some details while disregarding other details that another witness might include. Any police detective will confirm this to be true.

[Mr E]

[Replying to POI in post #70]

Thus, are you ready to have your belief system 'challenged'? If so, I've mentioned many topics to head towards. I'll let you pick one, or maybe I can instead choose?

Choose away! You can start a new topic or we can jump into something already posted.... However, please don't choose a thread with 10 or more pages of comments. I never jump into a conversation before reading the entirety of what's already been said, and those long threads are too laborious to interest me.

Cheers.

[POI]

Choose away! You can start a new topic or we can jump into something already posted

Let's gooooo! viewtopic.php?t=43117

[POI]

If all four narratives of Jesus agreed on every single sentence, this would indicate deliberate deception. The fact that they often have different details indicates authenticity to any serious scholar.

Sure. But why is Matthew the only one to mention an earthquake? This is a large claim. A claim in which even someone with limited or hazy memory would not omit? Is it possible that Matthew is adding or changing details?

Further, why does Matthew state that "an angle rolled away the stone" while the others said something different? Again, a major detail that would not be missed by the other 3 accounts.

In a nutshell, can we just discard Matthew's account?

[Mr E]

[Replying to POI in post #75]

Are you ignoring other accounts?

Maybe what happened when vs what happened is all that is in question.

There were also women, watching from a distance. Among them were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome. When he was in Galilee, they had followed him and given him support. Many other women who had come up with him to Jerusalem were there too.

Now when evening had already come, since it was the day of preparation (that is, the day before the Sabbath), Joseph of Arimathea, a highly regarded member of the council, who was himself looking forward to the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Pilate was surprised that he was already dead. He called the centurion and asked him if he had been dead for some time. When Pilate was informed by the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph. After Joseph bought a linen cloth and took down the body, he wrapped it in the linen and placed it in a tomb cut out of the rock. Then he rolled a stone across the entrance of the tomb.

Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses saw where the body was placed.

[POI]

[Replying to Mr E in post #76]

As I've told you, I'm good with your response in post 55 here. Again, this is not the be-all-end-all topic. This topic was merely created to stimulate the Biblical inerrancy camp.

[Avoice]

All the explanation Christians give to reconcile and save their testament serves to prove it's lie.

God preserved the truth. The Christian testament has not been preserved. The Hebrew Scriptures have been preserved. That alone is the holy scriptures. The message remains. Unchanged.

God preserved the truth. The Christian testament has not been preserved

[POI]

Great. So, you seem to acknowledge that the claims/assertions surrounding a Jesus do not align. Kool. Moving on...

***************************

Prior to addressing your assertions below, we must first assume that such a god actually exists? How can a skeptic know this asserted god actually exists? Once this has been established, we can then go to your given assertion(s) below.

God preserved the truth.

Can you prove it? If so, how?

The Hebrew Scriptures have been preserved.

Preserved or not, can you prove this collection of scriptures are all actually true?

[Avoice]

[Replying to POI in post #79]

The oldest source is the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Hebrew Scriptures tell the same message today.

The Christian testament does not tell the same message.

I answered. But I doubt it means anything to you