Jesus is Imaginary!

[POI]

For debate: (Question 1) Is he? Which conclusion requires less spin? He's real <or> he's imaginary?

Going back 5 years or so, I remember a video I watched. It was in the early days of me exchanging with theists on such debate sites. I just watched it again, in the hopes that my many exchanges with theists have since made this video seem quite simple/sophomoric/lame. And yet, maybe not-so-much?

Below are some of the apologetic answers Christians give, when applying petitionary and/or intercessory prayer for Jesus to appear -- (I added some more as well, above and beyond the video):

1) It would take away our free will for him to appear.
2) Jesus does not do anything which is not already in his will.
3) Jesus's ways are higher than ours. We cannot understand his ways.
4) He does appear to me. I hear his voice every day. Maybe he will for you too someday.
5) I saw Jesus appear in my toast/other.
6) Jesus no longer appears like he did back then.
7) His appearance would take away faith, and Jesus wants your faith.
8) He just hasn't answered your prayers yet.
9) You are not praying right or sincerely.
10) Prayer doesn't work like that.
11) This is not what scripture actually says.
12) Jesus's answer is sometimes "no".
13) Jesus is not a Genie in a bottle.

For debate: (Question 2) I may have missed some...? Christians, which excuses or answers do you give here?

Here is the video in question:



For debate: (Question 3) Since Jesus is not appearing to me when asked, isn't it the most common-sense answer to conclude "Jesus is imaginary"? If not, why not?

[Masterblaster]

Hello POI

Let us run with your ideas as far as they get us.
You talk about speaking and seeing. Are you demanding sound and vision. Can it be dreamlike. Can a Widower grieve at a grave and hear his loved one's voice and see her dance at the first dance they went to....a bit like that new Tom Hanks film I saw on a Transatlantic flight recently. A man called Otto, he could actually feel his dead wife in the bed in the morning. Do you think that he didn't.

Make a ruling on all this and we will proceed forward another step.

[1213]

..Since Jesus is not appearing to me when asked, isn't it the most common-sense answer to conclude "Jesus is imaginary"? If not, why not?

I don't think "Jesus is imaginary" is the most common-sense answer, because I don't think Jesus has promised to appear every time people ask him to appear.

....
Again, reading a book is not what is meant by 'contact'. Otherwise, I could read any book, from any dead author, and claim they are contacting me.

Hmmm... do you think contact and appearing are the same?

If I send email to some person, have I contacted him, even if I have not met him?

[1213]

Even though that's like the usual 'small print' excuse for Jesusgod not answering prayers when the Gospels state specifically that he would (if the prayer had faith as small as a mustard seed) it is not the only reason why there is good reason to think Jesus is imaginary, not only in the head, but in the gospels, if not in history.

I think it is disturbing that first we speak about should Jesus appear to anyone asking that and mix up it with idea does Jesus answer prayers.

Firstly, Jesus taught to pray God, his father. So, why would anyone pray Jesus?

Secondly, Bible tells:
Yahweh is far from the wicked, But he hears the prayer of the righteous.
Prov. 15:29
Should we ignore that text, if it doesn't fit into your narrative?

The other gods are real when they pop into the head? If not, we have imaginary gods in the head, don't we?

I don't know what you mean with other gods, but, to me the existence of other gods is irrelevant, because I wouldn't keep them as my god anyway, even if real.

[TRANSPONDER]

Even though that's like the usual 'small print' excuse for Jesusgod not answering prayers when the Gospels state specifically that he would (if the prayer had faith as small as a mustard seed) it is not the only reason why there is good reason to think Jesus is imaginary, not only in the head, but in the gospels, if not in history.

I think it is disturbing that first we speak about should Jesus appear to anyone asking that and mix up it with idea does Jesus answer prayers.

Firstly, Jesus taught to pray God, his father. So, why would anyone pray Jesus?

Secondly, Bible tells:
Yahweh is far from the wicked, But he hears the prayer of the righteous.
Prov. 15:29
Should we ignore that text, if it doesn't fit into your narrative?

The other gods are real when they pop into the head? If not, we have imaginary gods in the head, don't we?

I don't know what you mean with other gods, but, to me the existence of other gods is irrelevant, because I wouldn't keep them as my god anyway, even if real.

Sorry I keep forgetting you invented your own religion.

It doesn't matter because mainstream Christianity (which is the only one that matters apart from LDS) sees the three Jesus, God and this spirit - thing just to rope them all in in case it's a separate entity, as if they were all connected. That while on earth Jesus prayed to his Daither is beside the point; it is blindingly obvious except to 2,000 years worth of Bible experts that Jesus on earth was in regular if not continual connection with God, though God only told Jesus what he wanted him to know. But the doctrine (believe it or not) is that in heaven they are mentally one entity.

I don't care what the Bible promises as the sun cannot be stopped to let a battle finish, and prayers are not answered as the Bible says they will be, and the Bible apologists know this and make excuses.

As to other gods, you confirm my posting that you simply dismiss them out of hand either as existing or as being valid gods for you or me anyway. It doesn't enter your head that I feel exactly the same as you do, but about one god more than you.

[1213]

Sorry I keep forgetting you invented your own religion.

Bible is not written by me.

It doesn't matter because mainstream Christianity (which is the only one that matters apart from LDS) sees the three Jesus, God and this spirit - thing just to rope them all in in case it's a separate entity, as if they were all connected. That while on earth Jesus prayed to his Daither is beside the point; it is blindingly obvious except to 2,000 years worth of Bible experts that Jesus on earth was in regular if not continual connection with God, though God only told Jesus what he wanted him to know. But the doctrine (believe it or not) is that in heaven they are mentally one entity.

Why "mainstream Christianity" is bigger than the Bible? Is it because you can't refute the Bible, but you can refute the ideas some Christians have?

I don't care what the Bible promises as the sun cannot be stopped to let a battle finish, and prayers are not answered as the Bible says they will be,

I believe sun can be made to look like it stopped. And in my experience prayers are answered in the way Bible promises.

As to other gods, you confirm my posting that you simply dismiss them out of hand either as existing or as being valid gods for you or me anyway. It doesn't enter your head that I feel exactly the same as you do, but about one god more than you.

So, you think Bible God is real, but you just don't keep him as your God?

[POI]

..Since Jesus is not appearing to me when asked, isn't it the most common-sense answer to conclude "Jesus is imaginary"? If not, why not?

I don't think "Jesus is imaginary" is the most common-sense answer, because I don't think Jesus has promised to appear every time people ask him to appear.

....
Again, reading a book is not what is meant by 'contact'. Otherwise, I could read any book, from any dead author, and claim they are contacting me.

Hmmm... do you think contact and appearing are the same?

If I send email to some person, have I contacted him, even if I have not met him?

Is this a real answer 1213? Allow me, again, to re-explain my prior response(s). According to your argument, I could write a self-help book, have a person read it 100 years from now, and (I) would somehow be contacting them. But I'm not. I'm dead.

The Bible claims Jesus answers prayer. I gave you 3 Bible verses which states Jesus will answer prayers. The most logical reason Jesus is not answering my prayer, is to assume he is imaginary. It requires NO extra explanation. Just like I can assume the fella next to me, who reads the Book of Mormon, prays for conformation, and also gets no response, can then also conclude that it is imaginary. ALL OTHER (13) options, as provided in the OP, require much more explanation to 'explain away'. Got it?

[POI]

You talk about speaking and seeing. Are you demanding sound and vision.

My standards are pretty low. If you physically came to meet me, I would not deny/reject that you are indeed real. Can Jesus do the same. Yes, he can. Which of the 13 excuses in the OP are you instead going reach for, to avoid my conclusion?

Can it be dreamlike.

I dream all sorts of stuff which defies reality. So probably not.

Can a Widower grieve at a grave and hear his loved one's voice and see her dance at the first dance they went to....a bit like that new Tom Hanks film I saw on a Transatlantic flight recently. A man called Otto, he could actually feel his dead wife in the bed in the morning. Do you think that he didn't.

This has nothing to do with Jesus.

But sure, I'd argue the person is only soothing themselves, and is in self-deception if they truly believe their loved one is reaching out from 'beyond.' Why? We have countless 'mediums' who channel loved ones. Are these events real too?

[TRANSPONDER]

Sorry I keep forgetting you invented your own religion.

Bible is not written by me.

It doesn't matter because mainstream Christianity (which is the only one that matters apart from LDS) sees the three Jesus, God and this spirit - thing just to rope them all in in case it's a separate entity, as if they were all connected. That while on earth Jesus prayed to his Faither is beside the point; it is blindingly obvious except to 2,000 years worth of Bible experts that Jesus on earth was in regular if not continual connection with God, though God only told Jesus what he wanted him to know. But the doctrine (believe it or not) is that in heaven they are mentally one entity.

Why "mainstream Christianity" is bigger than the Bible? Is it because you can't refute the Bible, but you can refute the ideas some Christians have?

I don't care what the Bible promises as the sun cannot be stopped to let a battle finish, and prayers are not answered as the Bible says they will be,

I believe sun can be made to look like it stopped. And in my experience prayers are answered in the way Bible promises.

As to other gods, you confirm my posting that you simply dismiss them out of hand either as existing or as being valid gods for you or me anyway. It doesn't enter your head that I feel exactly the same as you do, but about one god more than you.

So, you think Bible God is real, but you just don't keep him as your God?

This is wild stuff. And hardly relevant....'scuse me while I correct some Typos.... The point is that Mainstream Christianity believes that Jesus and god are heaven connected so you pray to one, you pray to the other. Your views are irrelevant.

That said whether Jesus is God incarnate and whether that connection persists is in the Bible is arguable. But the belief that we in a Christian society that we have to deal with is what is important, not how the Bible reads or what you beliefs are. Whatever the original point was.

Your belief that the sun can be made to look like it stopped is denialist. The smart money is on - it is a tall tale predicated on the belief that the sky is a dome with the sun trundling around the interior and God can just put the brakes on.

This requires a total denial of all observational evidence OR 'Making Stuff Up' like time was magically stopped or a huge illusion was created. But the problem is....you have God wave a magic wand, you didn't need the battle in the first place.

I of course do think I can seriously question if not efute the Bible; I certainly don't need to try to score cheap points off a maverick Christian with their own personal Church. Your final line approaches sheer sauce. You are smart enough to know this is 'I disbelieve in One More God than you do. That is, You are an atheist about all gods but one; I'm atheist about them all. You cannot really think I was saying I believed in any gods, but were just doing sauce.

But it's all good as Other Theist Apologists,with or without Extra Capital Letters must be looking on with feelings of Horror "Is that what i sound like?"

[1213]

...That is, You are an atheist about all gods but one; I'm atheist about them all...

I am not claiming that the other gods don't exist, or have not existed. I think it is possible they have existed.

[1213]

....The most logical reason Jesus is not answering my prayer, is to assume he is imaginary. It requires NO extra explanation. Just like I can assume the fella next to me, who reads the Book of Mormon, prays for conformation, and also gets no response, can then also conclude that it is imaginary. ALL OTHER (13) options, as provided in the OP, require much more explanation to 'explain away'. Got it?

So, you think in all cases the choice with least explanation is correct?