Its my understanding of Islam that it wants to 'take over' the world, making Islam the default religion for all. I ask these questions in a sincere effort to seek the truth, and I ask in an honest effort to clear the air.
Please forgive me if I'm in error, and I can't quote the Koran, I'm trying to get some clarification.
1- Does Islam seek to impose its brand of religion on the world?
2- Does Islam allow others to worship as they please, with no restrictions, taxes, or any other impediments?
3- Leave Israel out. Do NOT include it in this thread. Could Islam allow Jewish people to form their own communities? Again, we will NOT discuss Israel What I'm asking is could Islam accept a Jewish community to exist outside of any place that Islam considers holy?
4- I understand how delicate the Israel issue is, and I do NOT want to stir that nest up in this thread. If anyone wishes to discuss Israel start a different thread.
The Muslim Stance
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JoeyKnothead
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Post #81
TrueReligion wrote:O, you realy need to do hard work TMT-mash wrote:Islam: "submission, entrusting one's wholeness to another"TrueReligion wrote:Its half meaning..T-mash wrote:Submission.TrueReligion wrote:Can you please bring the meaning of Islam hereWyvern wrote:Instead of quoting passages from both books why don't you both just agree that both books are drenched in blood and if the followers of both religions would actually follow their respective holy books to the letter there would be a lot fewer people in the world today.
Muslim: "One who submits"
Was teaching you about your own Quran not enough and I now also have to teach you Arabic?
"Salema": peace, purity, submission and obedience. In the religious sense, Islam means submission to the will of God and obedience to His law.
You are just saying submission, I already said its half meaning, so I gave you full meaning,
Be prepared next time when quoting anything about other religions, as others also know much here.
It's funny that you didn't post the first sentence of that thing you copied (without providing the source). The first sentence says I am right
And in case you didn't know (apparently not), derived from means that the word has its roots somewhere. For example science is derived from the Latin scientia, which means knowledge. Science however does not directly mean knowledge.
Isn’t this enough? Just this world?
Just this beautiful, complex, wonderfully unfathomable natural world?
How does it so fail to hold our attention
That we have to diminish it with the invention
Of cheap, man-made Myths and Monsters?
- Tim Minchin
Just this beautiful, complex, wonderfully unfathomable natural world?
How does it so fail to hold our attention
That we have to diminish it with the invention
Of cheap, man-made Myths and Monsters?
- Tim Minchin
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TrueReligion
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Post #83
So you know arabic now as well:)T-mash wrote:TrueReligion wrote:O, you realy need to do hard work TMT-mash wrote:Islam: "submission, entrusting one's wholeness to another"TrueReligion wrote:Its half meaning..T-mash wrote:Submission.TrueReligion wrote:Can you please bring the meaning of Islam hereWyvern wrote:Instead of quoting passages from both books why don't you both just agree that both books are drenched in blood and if the followers of both religions would actually follow their respective holy books to the letter there would be a lot fewer people in the world today.
Muslim: "One who submits"
Was teaching you about your own Quran not enough and I now also have to teach you Arabic?
"Salema": peace, purity, submission and obedience. In the religious sense, Islam means submission to the will of God and obedience to His law.
You are just saying submission, I already said its half meaning, so I gave you full meaning,
Be prepared next time when quoting anything about other religions, as others also know much here.
It's funny that you didn't post the first sentence of that thing you copied (without providing the source). The first sentence says I am right
And in case you didn't know (apparently not), derived from means that the word has its roots somewhere. For example science is derived from the Latin scientia, which means knowledge. Science however does not directly mean knowledge.
funny you say that science does mean knowledge
what doesit mean fairy tales and lies "Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish." [Qur''''an 17:81)
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TrueReligion
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Post #84
Ok, it seems you are saying that Old Testament is not for Christians, its for Jews, so why its in your bible?van wrote:TrueReligion - Deuteronomy 17? Great example! This shows the difference between your allah who wants all muslims educated and not educated to be vigilantes and YHWH wanting the Israelites to go to learned judges and priests. As for Exodus 22 witches honor the devil taking GOD's work putting it into the devil's hand expecting him to do good and evil.
Thank you for helping point out how specific GOD made the laws for the Old Testament Jews-specific Jews, some were to be the priests and had to make every attempt to be holy so they could perform rituals for the congregation. It is not like Islam where anyone can go off half-cocked killing willynilly.
So you believe “GOD Murders for Stupid Reasons�? Did you ever think that GOD might use figurative speech to talk to man? Unlike the Quran some of the verses you mentioned are figurative- not to be carried out literally but as a lesson to man to warn against wrong doing.
Never forget the Old Testament is a history of man, our sins and why we so desperately need Jesus.
wyernn you said-Instead of quoting passages from both books why don't you both just agree that both books are drenched in blood and if the followers of both religions would actually follow their respective holy books to the letter there would be a lot fewer people in the world today.
9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
You are comparing a violent death cult whose main goal is to be supreme over all the land that will keep you as a non-believe subdued or kill you out right with Judism and Christianity that have allowed democracy and tolerance-multiculturalism to flourish.
To be a true Christians we must follow the teachings of the Gospel and Jesus:
Matthew 22
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
For NT, if you think its not in Bible for killing and this, watch this. just 1 for your knwledge out of many.
Luke 19:27
27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me."
It also said for stealing.
19:30 Saying, Go ye into the village over against [you]; in the which at your entering ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring [him hither].
19:31 And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose [him]? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him.
Matthew 10:34-36 (NIV)
34-Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35-For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36-And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
Also, nowhere in Bible said that we need Jesus for salvation, neither did Jesus said that he is God or told followers to worship him, so you are wrong in this sense.
Can you show where JESUS said that dont follow the laws given by God.?
"Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish." [Qur''''an 17:81)
Post #85
Because it is the history of man and why we need Jesus. It is a lesson of how hard it is to be holy enough to be with GOD.
If you would take the time to read thhe whole story you would see that it is just a parable and not an order from Jesus to go kill someone.
Luke 19
11While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable,
Meanwhile in the muslim camp. Here is a great example of treating only your brother [Islam] as yourself and not your neighbor, meaning everyone[almost every religion]:
"Maybe it's time to save the ship to say that I am going to take an oath to be non-violent," he said, speaking of the widespread violence in the world by Muslims against other Muslims.
"And that I refuse as a Muslim to kill another Muslim and also as a Muslim to defend the rights of others." He added that he thought Islam should not be practised as it was 10 centuries ago.[/b]
If you would take the time to read thhe whole story you would see that it is just a parable and not an order from Jesus to go kill someone.
Luke 19
11While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable,
Meanwhile in the muslim camp. Here is a great example of treating only your brother [Islam] as yourself and not your neighbor, meaning everyone[almost every religion]:
"Maybe it's time to save the ship to say that I am going to take an oath to be non-violent," he said, speaking of the widespread violence in the world by Muslims against other Muslims.
"And that I refuse as a Muslim to kill another Muslim and also as a Muslim to defend the rights of others." He added that he thought Islam should not be practised as it was 10 centuries ago.[/b]
Post #86
Matthew 10
34-Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35-For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36-And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
This is Jesus predicting that in many families people will be pulled apart because some will follow Jesus and some will not.
Read all of John if you can't then read:
John 10
7Therefore Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. 8All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
Christians must follow the 10 Commandments. An easy way to do that is to remember:
Matthew 22
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
I forgot the link to the statement about promising not to kill a fellow Muslism:
Reviving the spirit of Islam
Thousands gather to pray, talk about faith in secular world
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article ... t-of-islam
34-Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35-For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36-And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
This is Jesus predicting that in many families people will be pulled apart because some will follow Jesus and some will not.
Read all of John if you can't then read:
John 10
7Therefore Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. 8All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
Christians must follow the 10 Commandments. An easy way to do that is to remember:
Matthew 22
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
I forgot the link to the statement about promising not to kill a fellow Muslism:
Reviving the spirit of Islam
Thousands gather to pray, talk about faith in secular world
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article ... t-of-islam
Post #87
The point I was trying to make is both you and TR could come up with passages from your respective holy books telling you to kill various groups for a very long time. I thought you both might want to get to some kind of point instead of demonstrating how bloodthirsty both of your religions are. The strange thing is you claim only christianity has allowed democracy and multiculturalism to flourish but islam has also allowed multiculturalism to flourish at times just as at times christianity has tried to squash multiculturalism.van wrote:wyernn you said-Instead of quoting passages from both books why don't you both just agree that both books are drenched in blood and if the followers of both religions would actually follow their respective holy books to the letter there would be a lot fewer people in the world today.
9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
You are comparing a violent death cult whose main goal is to be supreme over all the land that will keep you as a non-believe subdued or kill you out right with Judism and Christianity that have allowed democracy and tolerance-multiculturalism to flourish.
To be a true Christians we must follow the teachings of the Gospel and Jesus:
Matthew 22
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
I would hope you know that there are hundreds of sects of christianity all of which are convinced they are the one and only true christians.
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TrueReligion
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Post #88
This all Jesus said? I can;t find in Bible what else you are quoting about Muslimsvan wrote:Because it is the history of man and why we need Jesus. It is a lesson of how hard it is to be holy enough to be with GOD.
Whats in history that we need Jesus, can you prove me from history,? every1 in this world is with God, our relation of soul and worship is our relation with God, what else you mean by your statement?
If you would take the time to read thhe whole story you would see that it is just a parable and not an order from Jesus to go kill someone.
Luke 19
11While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable,
Meanwhile in the muslim camp. Here is a great example of treating only your brother [Islam] as yourself and not your neighbor, meaning everyone[almost every religion]:
"Maybe it's time to save the ship to say that I am going to take an oath to be non-violent," he said, speaking of the widespread violence in the world by Muslims against other Muslims.
"And that I refuse as a Muslim to kill another Muslim and also as a Muslim to defend the rights of others." He added that he thought Islam should not be practised as it was 10 centuries ago.[/b]
"Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish." [Qur''''an 17:81)
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TrueReligion
- Banned
- Posts: 1385
- Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:03 am
Post #89
Whatever you say, it does;nt mea, as Its proven from your Old and New Testament, that killing is ordered on massive scale of women, men, old men, children even animals and trees. Every1 knows this, even christian scholars admit that as well.van wrote:Matthew 10
34-Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35-For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36-And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
This is Jesus predicting that in many families people will be pulled apart because some will follow Jesus and some will not.
Read all of John if you can't then read:
John 10
7Therefore Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. 8All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
Christians must follow the 10 Commandments. An easy way to do that is to remember:
Matthew 22
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
I forgot the link to the statement about promising not to kill a fellow Muslism:
Reviving the spirit of Islam
Thousands gather to pray, talk about faith in secular world
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article ... t-of-islam
Rest for Quran, its already shown that the killing was only for the breakers of peace treaty, means the member council of peace treaty who killed the muslim mission and the pagans who broke the peace treaty.
So Quran is not ordering for killing, infact Quran clearly say that
On that account We ordained for the Children of Isra`il that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole humanity: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the whole humanity. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear (guidance), yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. (5:32)
This kind of wonderful verse is not even found in whole of Bible, even the 66,73 or other books which are kept hidden by churches with christians.
"Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish." [Qur''''an 17:81)
Post #90
One problem - the earlier verses of the Quran peaceful ones have been followed by violent verses and qccording to the Quran allah sends verses and then sends better verses. Chapter 5 is qn earlier chapter.
The following was ordained for the Jews not muslims- violence was ordained for Mudlims; Your own Quran shownig the Holy Bible is not violent.
5.32 On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
That was one of your own at a recent conference, nothing about not being violent towards non-muslims:
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article ... t-of-islam
Reviving the spirit of Islam
Thousands gather to pray, talk about faith in secular world
"Maybe it's time to save the ship to say that I am going to take an oath to be non-violent," he said, speaking of the widespread violence in the world by Muslims against other Muslims.
"And that I refuse as a Muslim to kill another Muslim and also as a Muslim to defend the rights of others." He added that he thought Islam should not be practised as it was 10 centuries ago.
The precept of the Koran is, perpetual war against all who deny, that Mahomet is the prophet of God. The vanquished may purchase their lives, by the payment of tribute; the victorious may be appeased by a false and delusive promise of peace; and the faithful follower of the prophet, may submit to the imperious necessities of defeat: but the command to propagate the Moslem creed by the sword is always obligatory, when it can be made effective. John Quincy Adams
(Sixth President of the United States
The following was ordained for the Jews not muslims- violence was ordained for Mudlims; Your own Quran shownig the Holy Bible is not violent.
5.32 On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
That was one of your own at a recent conference, nothing about not being violent towards non-muslims:
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article ... t-of-islam
Reviving the spirit of Islam
Thousands gather to pray, talk about faith in secular world
"Maybe it's time to save the ship to say that I am going to take an oath to be non-violent," he said, speaking of the widespread violence in the world by Muslims against other Muslims.
"And that I refuse as a Muslim to kill another Muslim and also as a Muslim to defend the rights of others." He added that he thought Islam should not be practised as it was 10 centuries ago.
The precept of the Koran is, perpetual war against all who deny, that Mahomet is the prophet of God. The vanquished may purchase their lives, by the payment of tribute; the victorious may be appeased by a false and delusive promise of peace; and the faithful follower of the prophet, may submit to the imperious necessities of defeat: but the command to propagate the Moslem creed by the sword is always obligatory, when it can be made effective. John Quincy Adams
(Sixth President of the United States
