Rational and civil debate between members of all religions and world views
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Shane Student
Joined: 11 Jun 2009 Total posts: 34 Location: California Gender: Undisclosed
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Post 1:
Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:37 pm Post subject: Heaven |
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(If this question belongs in another subgroup I apologize and will remove it)
I was talking to my friend about the concept of heaven the other night. She is a Christian and I am agnostic. After we got past the standard line about how in order to go to heaven you have to accept Jesus as your saviour, a few things occurred to me, but I will try to narrow it down to one problem.
Hypothetically lets say I convert to Christianity and accept Jesus. Now when I die I am going to heaven. But what if the rest of my family, my friends, remained atheist/agnostic and went to hell.
How am I in heaven if I am separated from the people I care about for all eternity?
Would where I go still be considered heaven or is it hell?
What if my family and friends all go to heaven, but I go to hell...will they be happy in heaven while I burn in hell? |
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McCulloch Site SupporterSavant
Joined: 02 May 2005 Total posts: 15524 Location: Toronto, ON, CA Age: 50 Gender: Male
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Post 2:
Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:02 am Post subject: |
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| Since this is the A Room, for atheists, agnostics and other non-theists, you probably will not get anyone defending the idea of heaven here. |
_________________
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John |
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| Shane Student
Joined: 11 Jun 2009 Total posts: 34 Location: California Gender: Undisclosed
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Post 3:
Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:35 am Post subject: |
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Hi McCulloch 
I'm not interested in getting any defense of the idea of heaven. I do not believe in it myself. The question is meant to be rhetorical and I was just curious what other people thought.
I considered posting the question in the Christian subgroup, but I was afraid they would simply say, "Yes you would be in heaven and yes they are in hell. Yes they would be happy in heaven while you burn in hell, because they are in heaven and they are with Jesus. Hope that was able to help you out, take care." |
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| OnceConvinced Prodigy
Joined: 07 Aug 2007 Total posts: 2955 Location: New Zealand Age: 42 Gender: Male
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Post 4:
Thu Jun 18, 2009 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| That's an issue I never thought to look at as a Christian, but now I have pondered a very similar question. My question is how can any person in Heaven be happy, knowing that their loved ones are writhing in agony while you are living it up. To deal with this, God would pretty much have to erase your memory of them, which would be a violation of freewill, which God supposedly would never do. What type of Hell would you be going through in Heaven knowing your most precious loved ones were suffering intense agonising torture at the hands of the God you are hanging out with? |
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Faith is what you have in things that don''t exist - Homer Simpson |
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| Scotracer Guru
Joined: 28 Apr 2009 Total posts: 1670 Location: Scotland Age: 22 Gender: Male
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Post 5:
Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:13 am Post subject: |
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Heaven would only be heaven for me if I could have my pet dog there. An eternity without him is an eternity in hell. But since animals apparently don't have souls, then that's the end of that.
Heaven even as a concept falls flat on its face. |
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Why Evolution is True
Universe from nothing
Every word is a prejudice
- Friedrich Nietzsche |
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| GrumpyMrGruff Apprentice
Joined: 29 Dec 2007 Total posts: 131 Location: Indiana/Ohio Age: 25 Gender: Male
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Post 6:
Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:41 pm Post subject: Re: Heaven |
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| Shane wrote: | How am I in heaven if I am separated from the people I care about for all eternity?
Would where I go still be considered heaven or is it hell?
What if my family and friends all go to heaven, but I go to hell...will they be happy in heaven while I burn in hell? |
When this question comes up, I've usually heard the claim that existing in the presence of God in Heaven is so unimaginably wonderful that "minor issues" like loved ones' eternal suffering don't enter into the equation.
(Or maybe...  ) |
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Angel
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Post 7:
Sun Sep 13, 2009 5:11 am Post subject: Re: Heaven |
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| Shane wrote: | (If this question belongs in another subgroup I apologize and will remove it)
I was talking to my friend about the concept of heaven the other night. She is a Christian and I am agnostic. After we got past the standard line about how in order to go to heaven you have to accept Jesus as your saviour, a few things occurred to me, but I will try to narrow it down to one problem.
Hypothetically lets say I convert to Christianity and accept Jesus. Now when I die I am going to heaven. But what if the rest of my family, my friends, remained atheist/agnostic and went to hell.
How am I in heaven if I am separated from the people I care about for all eternity?
Would where I go still be considered heaven or is it hell?
What if my family and friends all go to heaven, but I go to hell...will they be happy in heaven while I burn in hell? |
Yes, it is possible. People can come around to accepting the loss of a loved one here on Earth and due to random causes, like getting hit by lightning or a drunk driver, etc. They should also be able to handle it being separated from a relative who's in Hell knowing that it's for a justified reason. That's assuming that you believe the Christian doctrine and how everyone in Hell is there to do God's justified judgement. Besides that, all is not lost since to me being with God would trump being with anyone else. |
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| elle Apprentice
Joined: 15 Jun 2009 Total posts: 197 Location: United States Gender: Female
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Post 8:
Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:34 pm Post subject: Re: Heaven |
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| Shane wrote: | How am I in heaven if I am separated from the people I care about for all eternity?
Would where I go still be considered heaven or is it hell? |
This is another thing that always bothered me about the concept of heaven. I don't have all that many people I care about on a deep level and that care about me the same way, but they are people I can't imagine my life without - let alone eternity! The only way I see around this problem is if when Christians enter heaven in their new bodies that they have new minds with blank slates that are incapable of remember these loved ones OR if god takes away free will (if it was there to begin with) and causes you to think thoughts that make you not miss them. After all he's supposed to be omnipotent so I guess he could make it happen. I don't want him messing with my head or my memories though. |
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Its only after weve lost everything that were free to do anything.
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| OnceConvinced Prodigy
Joined: 07 Aug 2007 Total posts: 2955 Location: New Zealand Age: 42 Gender: Male
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Post 9:
Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:36 pm Post subject: Re: Heaven |
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| Angel wrote: | | Shane wrote: | (If this question belongs in another subgroup I apologize and will remove it)
I was talking to my friend about the concept of heaven the other night. She is a Christian and I am agnostic. After we got past the standard line about how in order to go to heaven you have to accept Jesus as your saviour, a few things occurred to me, but I will try to narrow it down to one problem.
Hypothetically lets say I convert to Christianity and accept Jesus. Now when I die I am going to heaven. But what if the rest of my family, my friends, remained atheist/agnostic and went to hell.
How am I in heaven if I am separated from the people I care about for all eternity?
Would where I go still be considered heaven or is it hell?
What if my family and friends all go to heaven, but I go to hell...will they be happy in heaven while I burn in hell? |
Yes, it is possible. People can come around to accepting the loss of a loved one here on Earth and due to random causes, like getting hit by lightning or a drunk driver, etc. They should also be able to handle it being separated from a relative who's in Hell knowing that it's for a justified reason. That's assuming that you believe the Christian doctrine and how everyone in Hell is there to do God's justified judgement. Besides that, all is not lost since to me being with God would trump being with anyone else. |
You can't compare the death of a loved one on Earth to eternal torment in Hell. We're talking about the absolute knowledge that your loved one is in absolute torment while you're living it up. A loving person would not be able to live with that. The death of a loved one is entirely different because there is always a hope that maybe that loved one is in Heaven. Even if that loved one was an evil sinner you will always hope that maybe they repented before their death or that God showed mercy on them. But if you are in Heaven, there's no escaping the knowledge that your loved one is suffering intensely. I could not handle that thought. Maybe you can, but not me.
Just look at the torment people go through who have a loved one that has disappeared, particularly a child. The horror stays with people. They are always wondering if their child is alive and whether that child might be suffering right now. No, I don't believe you would be able to handle that knowledge in Heaven, unless God erased your memory. |
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Church of the SubGenius - The one true religion
Faith is what you have in things that don''t exist - Homer Simpson |
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| otseng Savant
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 Total posts: 7464 Location: Atlanta, GA, USA Age: 43 Gender: Male
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Post 10:
Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:03 pm Post subject: Re: Heaven |
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| Angel wrote: |
Yes, it is possible. People can come around to accepting the loss of a loved one here on Earth and due to random causes, like getting hit by lightning or a drunk driver, etc. They should also be able to handle it being separated from a relative who's in Hell knowing that it's for a justified reason. That's assuming that you believe the Christian doctrine and how everyone in Hell is there to do God's justified judgement. Besides that, all is not lost since to me being with God would trump being with anyone else. |
Moderator intervention:
Angel, the A Room is for non-Christians to participate in. Christians are not allowed to participate here. |
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Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD
Isa 1:18 |
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