Endorsed obscurity and uncertainty ?

[BirdofPrey]

We have no ideea what we're all about. Why we are here or why things are the way they are. Some of us had the privilege to find alleged answers in holly books or philosophies before they reach to the only certainty in their lives: death. But there's confusion, dissonance and a great diversity of erroneous ideas and opinions, millions of people believing in incredibly stupid things in their own stupid worlds, living their lives in error.

What good is all this ? Couldn't the Bible be ineffable even in terms of interpretation ? A book that cannot be misinterpreted isn't impossible for God to inspire. And I recall reading something about closed eyes and ears so they may not hear or see, so that those would not turn to Him for healing.

It seems to me that if there's a God, he endorses obscurity.

Despite the fact that He relied on Wisdom... I think... when He created this world. So, how does this make sense ?

Why ? Oh why couldn't things be clearer and simpler for everybody ! WHY ?!

Or is this all because we're supposedly fallen and there every area possible needs to be imperfect since ?

You're two cents on this ?

[kayky]

The problem is that God did not leave us an instruction booklet or even a bible. When it comes to spirituality, there are no certainties or known absolutes. Does that make it a messy business? Yes.

[BirdofPrey]

And how those creating this problem and putting it into our world make sense or use ?

And yes, you can doubt the Bible is of God, and look at it as a book. You can doubt answers to prayers and label them as coincidence. You can even dismiss God as inexistent, despite the fact that He might very well MORE than exist, and all this despite the fact that if we'd know for certain He exists or anything else, things would be a lot different.

What's with the uncertainty factor ? Is this all pushing us towards faith perhaps ? What good is that ?

[kayky]

I don't know. I believe in God because of my own spiritual experiences, but I can give you no information as to the rhyme or reason for any of it. I often wonder about that myself.

[bernee51]

We have no ideea what we're all about. Why we are here or why things are the way they are. Some of us had the privilege to find alleged answers in holly books or philosophies before they reach to the only certainty in their lives: death. But there's confusion, dissonance and a great diversity of erroneous ideas and opinions, millions of people believing in incredibly stupid things in their own stupid worlds, living their lives in error.

In error? Why do you assume the possibility of 'error' - in doing so you, by default, assume there must be a 'right' way.

Could it be a fact of living under an illusion?

What good is all this ? Couldn't the Bible be ineffable even in terms of interpretation ?

Can not the same be said of the Gita?

A book that cannot be misinterpreted isn't impossible for God to inspire. And I recall reading something about closed eyes and ears so they may not hear or see, so that those would not turn to Him for healing.

That sounds circular to me.

It seems to me that if there's a God, he endorses obscurity.

Why do that?

Despite the fact that He relied on Wisdom... I think... when He created this world. So, how does this make sense ?

It doesn't. What makes sense is that all gods calimed to exist are merely concepts - human constructs.

Why ? Oh why couldn't things be clearer and simpler for everybody ! WHY ?!

A "cry in the wilderness"!

Or is this all because we're supposedly fallen and there every area possible needs to be imperfect since ?

And the very idea of 'fallen' when taken as a metaphor can explain the existence of the god concept.

[BirdofPrey]

We have no ideea what we're all about. Why we are here or why things are the way they are. Some of us had the privilege to find alleged answers in holly books or philosophies before they reach to the only certainty in their lives: death. But there's confusion, dissonance and a great diversity of erroneous ideas and opinions, millions of people believing in incredibly stupid things in their own stupid worlds, living their lives in error.

In error? Why do you assume the possibility of 'error' - in doing so you, by default, assume there must be a 'right' way.

They can't be all right while contradicting each other, and even if that's not a valid argument, looking around make me feel justified to say, that a lot of people do or believe a lot of weird and false things, and if that's not true, than it seems I'm in error. Truth is exclusive to begin with, it's either the way it is, or... there's no or. It's the way it is. Yes, I assume there is truth and I assume there's correctness and fidelity to reality, thus if there is a right way, all the others are wrong ways, unless the right way is actually more ways.

Again, mutually exclusive "truths", ideas present in these world proves at least a part of the population lives in error, no matter who's right.

Yes, if I think oranges are purple-blue I'm wrong. There has to be a right way that I have to contradict. Oranges are either this way or not. There is a reality and there is truth, that is the correct reflection of reality.

And of course the only right way is the right way. It can't be the wrong way, now, could it ?

Could it be a fact of living under an illusion?

I'd say it's more like living under a world where logic rules.

What good is all this ? Couldn't the Bible be ineffable even in terms of interpretation ?

Can not the same be said of the Gita?

Yes we could.

A book that cannot be misinterpreted isn't impossible for God to inspire. And I recall reading something about closed eyes and ears so they may not hear or see, so that those would not turn to Him for healing.

That sounds circular to me.

Assuming there's an all-powerful God the rest follows, I mean. He could have. He didn't. There's uncertainty all around important things, coincidence ? Not in a Universe created by a God with absolute free will.

It seems to me that if there's a God, he endorses obscurity.

Why do that?

You tell me.

Despite the fact that He relied on Wisdom... I think... when He created this world. So, how does this make sense ?

It doesn't. What makes sense is that all gods calimed to exist are merely concepts - human constructs.

Not so if there is a god.

Why ? Oh why couldn't things be clearer and simpler for everybody ! WHY ?!

A "cry in the wilderness"!

Quite right Am I not justified ?

Or is this all because we're supposedly fallen and there every area possible needs to be imperfect since ?

And the very idea of 'fallen' when taken as a metaphor can explain the existence of the god concept.

You mean, like this ?: Doesn't the world suck ? Is there a place for better ? Ergo, maybe there are even perfect beings ? I agree, it does help explain the concept. Problem is just because logic provides the means of somehow understanding a God, it doesn't make Him either exist, nor does it mean He can/does not exist. The God concept is just fine, and logic it self was created by God, so He had to put Himself in there somewhere right ? Otherwise, even if He existed, we would be rationally blind to Him.

[bernee51]

We have no ideea what we're all about. Why we are here or why things are the way they are. Some of us had the privilege to find alleged answers in holly books or philosophies before they reach to the only certainty in their lives: death. But there's confusion, dissonance and a great diversity of erroneous ideas and opinions, millions of people believing in incredibly stupid things in their own stupid worlds, living their lives in error.

In error? Why do you assume the possibility of 'error' - in doing so you, by default, assume there must be a 'right' way.

They can't be all right while contradicting each other, and even if that's not a valid argument, looking around make me feel justified to say, that a lot of people do or believe a lot of weird and false things, and if that's not true, than it seems I'm in error. Truth is exclusive to begin with, it's either the way it is, or... there's no or. It's the way it is. Yes, I assume there is truth and I assume there's correctness and fidelity to reality, thus if there is a right way, all the others are wrong ways, unless the right way is actually more ways.

Again, mutually exclusive "truths", ideas present in these world proves at least a part of the population lives in error, no matter who's right.

Yes, if I think oranges are purple-blue I'm wrong. There has to be a right way that I have to contradict. Oranges are either this way or not. There is a reality and there is truth, that is the correct reflection of reality.

And of course the only right way is the right way. It can't be the wrong way, now, could it ?

Does not a 'right' way presuppose an outcome?

Assuming there's an all-powerful God the rest follows, I mean. He could have. He didn't. There's uncertainty all around important things, coincidence ? Not in a Universe created by a God with absolute free will.

Who defines 'important things'?

It seems to me that if there's a God, he endorses obscurity.

Why do that?

You tell me.

The invisible and the non existent look very similar.

Despite the fact that He relied on Wisdom... I think... when He created this world. So, how does this make sense ?

It doesn't. What makes sense is that all gods claimed to exist are merely concepts - human constructs.

Not so if there is a god. [/quote]

Is there any need or reason for any god? Any evidence?

Why ? Oh why couldn't things be clearer and simpler for everybody ! WHY ?!

A "cry in the wilderness"!

Quite right Am I not justified ?

Who is this 'I' that is crying in the wilderness?

And the very idea of 'fallen' when taken as a metaphor can explain the existence of the god concept.

You mean, like this ?: Doesn't the world suck ? Is there a place for better ? Ergo, maybe there are even perfect beings ? I agree, it does help explain the concept. Problem is just because logic provides the means of somehow understanding a God, it doesn't make Him either exist, nor does it mean He can/does not exist. The God concept is just fine, and logic it self was created by God, so He had to put Himself in there somewhere right ? Otherwise, even if He existed, we would be rationally blind to Him.

No - not like that at all.

[BirdofPrey]

Does not a 'right' way presuppose an outcome?

You are switching terms (meanings) while keeping letters that form the word. I think I should put "right" on the list of abused words right away. Either that or I have no idea what we're talking about. An example please ?

Who defines 'important things'?

I'll let you choose anything. See if falsity about it does it any good. But to address the question more directly: IRRELEVANT. Whoever wants to. Importance is relative. I wasn't stating anything contrary to that. Here's a question for you. How isn't being in error RELEVANT for anyone ?

The invisible and the non existent look very similar.

True. But I don't get it.

Doesn't it look like like He does endorse it ?

Is there any need or reason for any god?

And exactly how many posts do we have on this on this forum alone ?

There doesn't need to be a need or reason for God to exist. That's human logic. You exist, and you don't know why should be enough to get you thinking...

Any evidence?

Evidence ? Have you read the opening post ? YES, THERE IS, BUT IT'S QUESTIONABLE. This is the subject of this thread. What were we talking about ?

Who is this 'I' that is crying in the wilderness?

If you'd rather that I write Bob instead of I, I might just comply, but it would be still me doing the typing. But it might be an idea to presume that you're talking to a real person, not just a drop from a cloud of something resembling some imaginary universal ego.

By the way, what wilderness ? And why have you said that to begin with?

No - not like that at all.

Why ?

If not like that, how ?

---No satisfying reply for my opening post yet.

[bernee51]

Does not a 'right' way presuppose an outcome?

You are switching terms (meanings) while keeping letters that form the word. I think I should put "right" on the list of abused words right away. Either that or I have no idea what we're talking about. An example please ?

If anyone is claiming a 'wrong' or 'right' way they must have in mind a destination.

I like to think of 'truth' as a pathless land.

Who defines 'important things'?

How isn't being in error RELEVANT for anyone ?[/quote]

It isn't relevant.

The invisible and the non existent look very similar.

True. But I don't get it.

Doesn't it look like like He does endorse it ?

Not at all - it is humans who make an assesment of endoresement. God cannot eb shown to endorse anything.

Is there any need or reason for any god?

You exist, and you don't know why should be enough to get you thinking...

Who says I don't know why I exist?

Who is this 'I' that is crying in the wilderness?

By the way, what wilderness ? And why have you said that to begin with?

It was meant more as a quip.

No - not like that at all.

Why ?

If not like that, how ?

The metaphor of the fall has to do with the emergence, in humankind, of self reflective consciousness.

[bernee51]

---No satisfying reply for my opening post yet.

What are you looking for?