The Meaning of 1 John 5:16-17

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slashreborn06
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The Meaning of 1 John 5:16-17

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Post by slashreborn06 »

1 John 5:16-17 says...
16If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. 17All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.
I came across this verse when reading the book of 1 John. I read it several times trying to make sense of it. I had to do some side research. Apparently it is a verse of which the meaning is widely debated.

Some believe that a sin that leads to death can be explained by the story of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5:1-10
But a certain man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property, 2 and kept back some of the price for himself, with his wife’s full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles’ feet. 3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit...5 And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came upon all who heard of it . . .7 Now there elapsed an interval of about three hours, and his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 And Peter responded to her, “Tell me whether you sold the land for such and such a price?� And she said, “Yes, that was the price.� 9 Then Peter said to her, “Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they shall carry you out as well.� 10 And she fell immediately at his feet, and breathed her last,
This kind of sheds some light, but I still find the passage hard to understand. John states that there is "a sin that leads to death". It seems like he is talking about one specific sin. If so what is this sin?

He also states a confusing point on praying for those (or not praying) who have committed this sin(s). Why would we not pray for them? Because they are dead right after their sin?

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Post by McCulloch »

I moved this into a debate forum from the definitions forum. The topic of debate is about the correct Christian interpretation of a particular passage of scripture.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
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Re: The Meaning of 1 John 5:16-17

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Post by myth-one.com »

According to the Bible, two separate and distinct "deaths" can befall mankind. The first and obvious death ends our life which we are presently living on earth. When the first death of any man is discussed in the Bible, the words used to describe that event are sleep or rest. Only man, among all the animals is said to sleep, slumber, or rest when he dies. The second possible death is described in the book of Revelation:
Revelation 20:14-15 wrote: . . . This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:14-15)

Individuals whose names are not written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire and suffer their second death. It is very important to notice that this death is actually labeled as a death! That is, it is final and eternal. There is no recovery or return from the second death! John is referring to the second death -- the one which is the wages of sinning.
slashreborn06 wrote:John states that there is "a sin that leads to death". It seems like he is talking about one specific sin. If so what is this sin?
While any and all sin leads to the second death if not forgiven, there is one unforgivable sin -- blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. This sin leads directly to the second death with no other options. This is the one sin John speaks about:
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Matthew 12:31-32)

And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven. (Luke 12:10)
slashreborn06 wrote:He also states a confusing point on praying for those (or not praying) who have committed this sin(s). Why would we not pray for them? Because they are dead right after their sin?
There is no need or reason to because the sin cannot be forgiven. Pointless to pray.

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McCulloch wrote:I moved this into a debate forum from the definitions forum. The topic of debate is about the correct Christian interpretation of a particular passage of scripture.
Though I do not endorse this as 'correct,' I do think this commentary makes a decent case for it being heretical opponents who've left the church.

He kind of contradicts an earlier point with the last sentence of the section, but if the verse is viewed as supportive of annihilationism I think the overall argument is still fairly decent.
Unless indicated otherwise what I say is opinion. (Kudos to Zzyzx for this signature).

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Post #5

Post by slashreborn06 »

Three more questions now come to mind

So what "exactly" would fall under blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?

Also when it says

"And everyone who speaks against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven."

How can this be when Jesus (the Son of Man) and the Holy Spirit are both the same, God.(assuming you believe in the trinity)

lastly what about the promise of salvation. What if one accepts Jesus as lord and savior, gains their salvation, and then let's say years down the line in a fit of rage blasphemes against the holy spirit?

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Post #6

Post by ChaosBorders »

slashreborn06 wrote:Three more questions now come to mind

So what "exactly" would fall under blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?

Also when it says

"And everyone who speaks against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven."

How can this be when Jesus (the Son of Man) and the Holy Spirit are both the same, God.(assuming you believe in the trinity)

lastly what about the promise of salvation. What if one accepts Jesus as lord and savior, gains their salvation, and then let's say years down the line in a fit of rage blasphemes against the holy spirit?
Let's look at in context: Matthew 12: 31-32
Then there was brought to Him a demon-possessed man who was blind and dumb, and He healed him, so that the dumb man spoke and saw. 23And all the multitudes were amazed, and began to say, "This man cannot be the Son of David, can he?" 24But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, "This man casts out demons only by Beelzebub the ruler of the demons." 25And knowing their thoughts He said to them, "Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself shall not stand. 26"And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then shall his kingdom stand? 27"And if I by Beelzebub cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? Consequently they shall be your judges. 28"But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29"Or how can anyone enter the strong man's house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. 30"He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters. 31"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32"And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come
So, in the context of the story, it seems to be talking about someone who sees God's power in action and rejects it anyways. It may even be even more limiting and be a mis-attribution of God's power to Satan.

Another way of putting it might be God going "Hey, I can get it if you don't trust me while wearing the human suit, but I just cast out demons and you're saying I'm doing it using Satan's power? Now you're just being dumb".

I think Christians would generally argue that if someone is really a Christian they've already accepted God's power as being God's and aren't likely to go back and mis-attributing it to Satan.
Unless indicated otherwise what I say is opinion. (Kudos to Zzyzx for this signature).

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Post #7

Post by slashreborn06 »

But still it Jesus himself says...
whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come
So what if someone who has blasphemed against the holy spirit, sees the error of his ways and wants to repent and become saved? Is it possible, because it sounds like its not.

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Post #8

Post by McCulloch »

slashreborn06 wrote: But still it Jesus himself says...
whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come
So what if someone who has blasphemed against the holy spirit, sees the error of his ways and wants to repent and become saved? Is it possible, because it sounds like its not.
One solution to that particular dilemma is that the unforgivable sin is the one that renders you incapable of wanting to repent. If you want to repent and become saved, then you have not committed the unforgivable sin, whatever that might be.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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Post #9

Post by slashreborn06 »

This still begs the question...What exactly must one do to commit blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?

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Post #10

Post by McCulloch »

slashreborn06 wrote: This still begs the question...What exactly must one do to commit blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?
Yes, you are correct. It leaves unanswered the central question. But it gives some parameters a certain degree of scope for that answer.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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