Who impregnated Mary?

[Zzyzx]

.
Who impregnated Mary?

If Jesus was “the son of god�, then “god� must be the father – and must have impregnated her.

However, doesn’t “scripture� say that Mary was impregnated by “the holy spirit�? Aren’t “god the father� and “the holy spirit� supposed to be DIFFERENT parts of the triad?

Wouldn’t that make Jesus the “son of the holy spirit�?

Was there an “angel� involved?

[Flail]

.

I was called through signs.

Signs????? Kindly state clearly what you are talking about when you claim in DEBATE, for all to evaluate, that you have been “CALLED through ‘SIGNS’�.

How do you know that your “signs� were not from “Satan�, recruiting you?

Then his recruitment failed.

Many are called through signs but not all recognize them or admit they are signs.

What, exactly, are “signs� by which people are “called�?

Nothing to debate I guess...that's a wrap....we've been judged.


Not all are called with signs such as I see so I can only speak for myself. What is a sign to me may not be to others. The signs God sends to some may well be the person teaching, bringing the message.

I studied the Bible daily through a teacher on television that teaches chapter by chapter and verse by verse.

I am not surprised that you “learned� religion from television.

Thank you for your honesty (if not for your judgment and discernment).

I didn't learn "religion," I learned truth and it wasn't from television but a really terrific teacher that happens to reach many folks through television. Those that did learn religion at church often turn away from God. I'm seeing a lot of that on this forum.

I learned things not taught in Sunday School, or from the pulpit but....they are written!

Many things are “written� in many different, conflicting books. Which is KNOWN to be truthful? Which can be verified as truth? Hint, the honest answer is NONE.

Truth...there is only one book.

I do not attend church. I do not perform rituals. I do pray and worship Him.

Worship WHO? How do you know that you are not worshiping “Satan� after being “taught� by a television preacher who could well be a fraud or front for “Satan�?

The teacher I learned from is a teacher...not someone giving sermons. There are many "fronts for Satan" on television but the discernment and judgment you scoffed at keeps me on an even keel. He was an excellent teacher and I learned a great deal. Now I study and the Holy Spirit teaches.

Let me guess. You “just know�. Right? You have a book (or a television show) that says so. Right?

No...I have the Holy Spirit.

There are many who present very different “messages from god�. Which is correct, and why?

I don't know. I don't follow anyone.

Because I'm not a church goer I didn't have as much to unlearn as do those reared under their guidance.

Are you a “bible believer�?

I am indeed.

Are you willing to “unlearn� bible “truths� if shown that donkeys and snakes do not converse with humans, that people do not walk on water, that water does not turn into wine (we have discussed that, haven’t we?), that stars do not lead people or stop overhead, that dead bodies do not come back to life after days in the grave?????

We have discussed it and yet you continue saying snakes speak.

Concerning Allah. I would answer your question by asking....How do you know Allah isn't God?

I, personally, do not claim to know that “Allah� isn’t “god� (or any particular “god�). Do you KNOW that Allah is or is not “god�?

No.

Is that another name for Him?

I don’t know. Do you? Are you speculating?

Well you know how I so enjoy that.

I don't know but as I stated previously man has so corrupted, through religion, the truth of our Father that it is no wonder the world is as it is.

If a perfect, omniscient “god� “created humans IN HIS OWN IMAGE�, why is man or the world “so corrupt�?

I propose two major alternatives:

1) “God� is corrupt

2) Humans are NOT “created in his image� (in spite of the propaganda)

Can you suggest other alternatives?

Yes. We are all created in His image and then we're given freedom. The reason for this flesh age is to make a choice. Who do we listen to? Who do we follow? The previous age determined where we're placed in this age.

[Flail]

How were you called? What did you pay attention to? What did you study? Did you attend church, perform rituals, pray and worship? How did it all come about and how do you know it wasn't Allah?

I was called through signs. Many are called through signs but not all recognize them or admit they are signs.

1 Samuel 10:6-7 And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man. And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee.

Psalm 74:9 We see not our signs: there is no more any prophet: neither is there among us any that knoweth how long.

Hebrews 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to His own will?

I studied the Bible daily through a teacher on television that teaches chapter by chapter and verse by verse. I learned things not taught in Sunday School, or from the pulpit but....they are written!

I do not attend church. I do not perform rituals. I do pray and worship Him. Because I'm not a church goer I didn't have as much to unlearn as do those reared under their guidance.

Concerning Allah. I would answer your question by asking....How do you know Allah isn't God? Is that another name for Him? I don't know but as I stated previously man has so corrupted, through religion, the truth of our Father that it is no wonder the world is as it is.

Prayer and worship is ritual.

I don't know any Gods, but I suppose if there were Gods, one of them could have adopted the name Allah, but I would need strong evidence. What evidence do you have to discern different Gods?

How does religion corrupt some men, but save you?

How can you rely on the ancient,unverified conversion vision of Paul? Do you know this Paul? Perhaps he was deluded. Perhaps his visitation was from a devil. Perhaps he was feeling guilty after many days out with the boys on the road to Damascus. What were they up to out there and why were women so absent in Paul's life? Was he a trustworthy person? Did he have proven credibility? Did he have an agenda? What were his hobbies? What kind of childhood did he have? Have you ever spoken to him? What kind of mood was he in when he wrote his church building letters? Why, some 400 years after the fact, did some other men, also strangers to you, decide to put his letters in a bible book? Why do you base your life on the words of this stranger?

[whirlwind]

How were you called? What did you pay attention to? What did you study? Did you attend church, perform rituals, pray and worship? How did it all come about and how do you know it wasn't Allah?

I was called through signs. Many are called through signs but not all recognize them or admit they are signs.

1 Samuel 10:6-7 And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man. And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee.

Psalm 74:9 We see not our signs: there is no more any prophet: neither is there among us any that knoweth how long.

Hebrews 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to His own will?

I studied the Bible daily through a teacher on television that teaches chapter by chapter and verse by verse. I learned things not taught in Sunday School, or from the pulpit but....they are written!

I do not attend church. I do not perform rituals. I do pray and worship Him. Because I'm not a church goer I didn't have as much to unlearn as do those reared under their guidance.

Concerning Allah. I would answer your question by asking....How do you know Allah isn't God? Is that another name for Him? I don't know but as I stated previously man has so corrupted, through religion, the truth of our Father that it is no wonder the world is as it is.

Prayer and worship is ritual.

Prayer is communication, it is speaking to Him....not ritual. I don't recite or chant the words of man. It is thanking Him, it is asking for answers, it is a connection between us. The worship is in looking around everyday and thanking Him for His creation. Both prayer and worship are a way of life and they are not done as a duty...."kneel and say your prayers," but are instead speaking to the Father during the day as thoughts enter your mind.

I don't know any Gods, but I suppose if there were Gods, one of them could have adopted the name Allah, but I would need strong evidence. What evidence do you have to discern different Gods?

I don't discern gods at all. There is One God. Does He have different names to various people? I don't know Flail.

How does religion corrupt some men, but save you?

To me, being a Christian is how one lives. Being religious is following man's tradition...Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, Muslim, Hindu and on and on and on. They may have begun with God but man, led by the serpent, stepped all over His Word, they fouled the water and trampled His pastures.....

Ezekiel 34:18-19 Seemeth it a small thing unto you to have eaten up the good pasture, but ye must tread down with your feet the residue of your pastures? and to have drunk of the deep waters, but ye must foul the residue with your feet? And as for My flock, they eat that which ye have trodden with your feet; and they drink that which ye have fouled with your feet.

Jeremiah 12:10 Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden My portion under foot, they have made My pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.

How can you rely on the ancient,unverified conversion vision of Paul? Do you know this Paul? Perhaps he was deluded. Perhaps his visitation was from a devil. Perhaps he was feeling guilty after many days out with the boys on the road to Damascus. What were they up to out there and why were women so absent in Paul's life? Was he a trustworthy person? Did he have proven credibility? Did he have an agenda? What were his hobbies? What kind of childhood did he have? Have you ever spoken to him? What kind of mood was he in when he wrote his church building letters? Why, some 400 years after the fact, did some other men, also strangers to you, decide to put his letters in a bible book? Why do you base your life on the words of this stranger?

I base my life on the Word of the Lord....not the word of Paul.

1 Corinthians 1:12-13 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

I know Paul through the truth I see in the epistles for that truth is connected throughout the Bible.

If you are insinuating that Paul was homosexual....that thought crossed my mind too but...then I understood. Paul, a zealot before his conversion but...on the wrong side, was chosen possibly because of that drive. He, a tentmaker by trade, dedicated his life to spreading the Word. He wrote....

1 Corinthians 7:20-23 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called. Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather. For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant. Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men. Brethren, let every man, wherein he is called, therein abide with God.

7:27-29 Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife. But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you. But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none;

Paul was teaching those called to be servants of the Lord. Paul's preference was for others to be as he was....totally able to dedicate his life to teaching and not be distracted by family. I understand this for Jesus said.....

Matthew 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

That doesn't mean we aren't to love others, for we are to love even our enemies but He must come first in the lives of those that follow Him.

[Zzyzx]

.

I began to see signs...ALL THE TIME. They drove me crazy and I knew they couldn't just be coincidence.

How did you know that they could not be coincidence?

How did you know that the signs were directing you to the particular faith you chose?

They happen all the time. For them to be a coincidence is an impossibility.

Many are “driven crazy� by all sorts of things (including “signs�). Condolences.

You have not addressed the question of how you know that the things which you regard as “a coincidence is an impossibility� is from a PARTICULAR faith.

Finally I read where others were experiencing similar events and I was so relieved I actually cried.

Reinforcement from others can be emotionally uplifting.

There are lots of people who experience signs. The odd thing is that the signs do not always direct people to the same conclusions.

Perhaps we're not to reach the "same conclusions." His plan may be for us to keep talking, keep discussing, keep thinking.

Or, there may be no “divine plan� and we discuss and debate because we disagree. Which seems the more rational suggestion?

There may never be evidence enough for some.

Evidence should not be subjective. Present some evidence and we can evaluate it together.

In the carnal world perhaps "evidence should not be subjective" but not in the spiritual.

What one cannot substantiate (or “prove�), one should not offer as truth – particularly in debate.

How does one prove the invisible?

Many things that are invisible can be proved to exist. The simplest and most common example might be AIR. Though it cannot be seen by us (i.e., invisible), we can detect its presence directly with our senses when we feel a breeze.

What CANNOT be proved is the UNDETECTABLE.

I can tell you one thing that happened to me. When I first began to really study a few years ago I was a total dunderhead regarding the Bible. I didn't have a clue what books were in the Old or New Testament...except for Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.


I took notes from a teacher on television and would then later write them down as I read from the Bible.

It is informative that you acknowledge being influenced by a televangelist.

]He covered a different book during each hour and I watched all five hours...taking notes during all of them. During one hour, I picked the Bible up and opened it to look for the verse. Three times the Bible opened on the page I was searching for! The first time I just smiled. The second time I was a little taken aback and the third time I was floored! That cannot be coincidence!

Yes it can be. I've studied statistics and really such things are not that difficult to explain. You really should read John Allen Paulos.

When that happened the "signs" I've spoken about also happened. It was no coincidence.

A person schooled in probability will tell you that such things CAN be coincidence.

What piqued my attention was numbers. I was, and still am, awakened in the middle of the night and the clock shows 11:44, 1:14, 4:11, etc. I see those numbers on signs, on car tags, on grocery receipts on forums...that number has been shown around you. I have a coffee pot with a clock I never reset after the electricity went off. It shows those numbers so often. Biblical numbers have meanings. These signs have meanings. After the Bible opened on the correct page three times I looked at the clock and yes....4:14! It was no coincidence McCulloch.

Many people become fixated on certain digits, thinking they have “significance� or they are a “lucky number� (or they are “signs�).

Notice there are only ten digits in standard mathematics. They occur adjacent to each other regularly and repeatedly. One who looks for “significance� notices when or how often the digits are together and disregards the much greater frequency of the chosen digits NOT appearing together.

I know you'll laugh or Z will scoff but it is what it is.

I do not scoff, and do not expect that you will change your thinking about “signs�. BUT, discerning readers can evaluate the merits of what is said and reach their own conclusions.

Unless the digits are being manipulated, there is no “meaning� in digit occurrence or frequency (in my opinion).

Do you think that some invisible force is manipulating the frequency of digits in your life? If so, how can you identify the force (with anything more than a guess)?

I went in for a medical procedure and was nervous...going under anesthesia. As they started it I glanced at my BP - 141. I smiled and drifted off. There are many more incidents that may not amount to a hill of beans to others but....I know what they are.

What are they?

They awakened me to a spiritual pull. My mother, a very skeptical person, is often with me and I show her...."look Mom, look at the clock." She sees the numbers over and over and yet just shakes her head. I'm afraid she will never see, at least through those signs.

Have you observed that most clocks show the digits 4 and 1 repeatedly throughout the day?

These are not huge miracles but they are very special to me.

They are not miracles at all. But you have placed in them more importance than they merit.

And are you too just "shaking your head?"

Realists will tend to “shake their head� when told about the “significance� of digits that occur regularly.

Has it occurred to you that EVERYONE sees the same digits? Are all receiving “signs� from a “god� at 4:11 AM?

I see truth in our Father's Words given to Paul.

But I do not see the heavenly father's words in the writings of Paul. What is it about Paul's writings that convinces you that they are from God?

Two years ago I was taught by a poster on another forum about the "man child." That was a deep revelation...very profound. Paul's teaching goes into this.

I am unfamiliar with this. How does the profoundly deep revelation of the concept of the man child demonstrate that the heavenly Father truly inspired Paul?

It's a pretty involved study...best left for a separate thread.

So far that is a television preacher and an Internet forum post that are “profound� influences.

Perhaps you will open a thread and enlighten the uninformed?

We do not know everything. If we did, then research would end, being unnecessary. We do not yet know how life evolved from non-life. We have some interesting ideas to be tested. None of them involve a supernatural spirit.

Exactly...we do not nor can we "know everything" about the natural or the supernatural but He said.....

Some claim that their favorite “god� knows everything.

Speaking often to one another on forums such as this one. Even questioning may well be part of the process. We are here for a reason...all of us.

My reason for being here is to help bible believers demonstrate that they have no claim on truth or knowledge – and to encourage people to THINK RATIONALLY and to make decisions based on observation, information and evidence from the real world.

But you put your trust in humans. Their names are Paul, Luke, Matthew, John, Peter, James, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and others some of who's names are lost.

True, but they were chosen, they were led by God.

How do you know this? They claim to be chosen. They claim to be led by God. You only have their word on that. Joseph Smith claimed to be led by God. Why accept Paul and not Joseph Smith?

Oh McCulloch, you ask questions that are so difficult to answer.

He does ask difficult questions, doesn’t he? The reason that they are difficult is that bible believers have no rational answers.

Some claim that certain people were “chosen by god�; however, when asked to show that the claim is truth, they have nothing to say beyond “I think so� or “they said so� or “others think so�.

I see God's story running through the pages of the Bible...the same story.

If you were not already a believer, you might not “see god’s story running through the pages of the bible� – but see the bible for what it is – stories written by storytellers and religious promoters long ago and far away.

It is connected throughout. Joseph Smith may well have been led by God...I don't know but I do know that Christ said He foretold us all things. Those things are written. Those things I believe.

Your “belief� must be comforting to you. It might be best to hang on to that, no matter how illogical it seems to others, if you need the belief in your life.

[KennethM]

What piqued my attention was numbers. I was, and still am, awakened in the middle of the night and the clock shows 11:44, 1:14, 4:11, etc. I see those numbers on signs, on car tags, on grocery receipts on forums...that number has been shown around you. I have a coffee pot with a clock I never reset after the electricity went off. It shows those numbers so often. Biblical numbers have meanings. These signs have meanings. After the Bible opened on the correct page three times I looked at the clock and yes....4:14! It was no coincidence McCulloch.

Many people become fixated on certain digits, thinking they have “significance� or they are a “lucky number� (or they are “signs�).

Notice there are only ten digits in standard mathematics. They occur adjacent to each other regularly and repeatedly. One who looks for “significance� notices when or how often the digits are together and disregards the much greater frequency of the chosen digits NOT appearing together.

I know you'll laugh or Z will scoff but it is what it is.

I do not scoff, and do not expect that you will change your thinking about “signs�. BUT, discerning readers can evaluate the merits of what is said and reach their own conclusions.

Unless the digits are being manipulated, there is no “meaning� in digit occurrence or frequency (in my opinion).

Do you think that some invisible force is manipulating the frequency of digits in your life? If so, how can you identify the force (with anything more than a guess)?

These are not huge miracles but they are very special to me.

They are not miracles at all. But you have placed in them more importance than they merit.

And are you too just "shaking your head?"

Realists will tend to “shake their head� when told about the “significance� of digits that occur regularly.

Has it occurred to you that EVERYONE sees the same digits? Are all receiving “signs� from a “god� at 4:11 AM?

Zzyzx brings up some great points. I actually have a personal experience that I think helps bring this into the real world. When I bought my first car it was a 1982 Volkswagen Rabbit (as old as I am). Before I bought it I had no idea that this model even existed, however once I owned it I noticed them more and more on the road. I actually owned a second one after the first. The same thing happened with my next car, a 1989 Grand Am. I noticed them everywhere. Again with the car after that a 1991 Honda Civic. I noticed these cars everywhere when I had never really noticed them before.

This is the mind looking for patterns and picking up on particular instances where there is some sort of personal relevance. I would wager that you often look at the clock and more often than not it is not 11:44, 1:44, or 4:11 but you simply dismiss the thought because it has no secret personal relevance just as I always saw cars but dismissed them until I owned a particular make and model.

[whirlwind]

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Many see truth in the Words given to Paul so then..

Many do not see “truth� in the words of Paul. Some do, some do not. So what? Can you show that he spoke truth?

No.

Thank you for an honest answer

As always, you are very welcome.

If you actually knew based upon valid information, you might convince me by citing information that I could validate.

Correction....I know I know. You can agree or not agree but you cannot know what I know or I what you know.

“Know� is different from “believe�. Knowledge involves conceptualization that can be verified by anyone interested.

Belief is a personal decision that cannot be verified.

If you have knowledge of supernatural phenomena, that knowledge can be verified. If you “believe� something to be true, that cannot be verified because it is your personal decision.

My verification of "supernatural phenomena" is my word. I give that to you and yet I must ask....is my knowledge verification to you?

As far as convincing you or anyone....that isn't my job.

What, exactly, is your motive in attempting to debate here?

To learn, to teach, to share His Word.

I am to use His Word and it will reach those that are to be reached.

I am not among “those that are to be reached� – guaranteed – many have tried for half a century – this is “not my first rodeo�. I find your “message� far less convincing than others who have presented theism with a modicum of reasoning and “evidence�.

And...how is their message working for you so far cowboy? You know the saying, "if at first you don't succeed," or "if you fall off that horse you've got to get back on." He keeps sending us in and will continue to until that last day.

He sends us where we need to be.

Some believe that invisible, undetectable “gods� or “spirits� guide them to “where they need to be�. I see no evidence that their beliefs are based in reality.

Why else would someone willingly endure the "firey darts" aimed our way?

ill it immediately open eyes? I don't know. I am more apt to believe that because some have been blinded for a purpose, they will not see until the last days and that may well be what is going on now.

One may “open eyes� to learn about the real world instead of devoting their life to worshiping of invisible, undetectable, proposed supernatural “gods� (or rabbits for that matter).

I, for one, prefer to set my own goals, objectives and standards in life without “guidance� from invisible, undetectable “gods� or “spirits�. Others seek and welcome that influence upon their lives. It is a matter of personal choice.

The question is...what is the "real world." Is it what you experience now or is it what it will be forever?

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Those that are to be sealed....will be sealed.

Sealed????????

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 Now He which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

The "two witnesses," of which there are many (two groups), are called and sealed. They prophesy, which is not to prophesy as in telling the future, but is to teach with Divine inspiration.

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."

The power given them is understanding and they teach. The end will not come until all of those that are to be sealed are sealed and they in turn testify of that Word which brings others to Him....

Revelation 7:3-4, 9 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. (9) After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

This event of sealing and awakening is written of in Ezekiel. God's children are the bones in the "valley of dry bones." Many of us are or were spiritually dead and will be shaken in these last days....

Ezekiel 37:3-6 And He said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest. Again He said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

37:10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

Who knows if we, as believers, are the elect chosen to take His Word to others or are we among the others that believe through their word?

I agree that you do NOT know. Why, then, would you attempt to convince others that you DO know, and that you speak truth?

I said I didn't know if I was the one being awakened, shaken, because I was an elect or if I was awakened because I heard through them. Either way, once we are spiritually alive it is the Spirit that fills us. We are then sealed.

It is unimportant as long as the goal is reached.

What is the “goal�???? How can you be assured that the “goal� you seek (or devote life to) is real? Why should anyone accept what you say as truth? You have only personal decisions as “evidence� (decisions to accept what is said by religious promoters – ancient or modern).

The goal? To be with Him. Once that goal is realized then you know truth. I don't care diddly about "religious promoters."

[quote="Zzyzx"[ Kindly note that Non-Believers are not likely to be convinced by bible quotes. Do you have any actual evidence?

No. What type of evidence do you require?

Anything that I can test to insure accuracy. What do you have?

God.

Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

I'm old but I wasn't an eye-witness to Paul's conversion.

I’m probably older that you (December 1939), and did not fall of the turnip truck. Paul’s “conversion� sounds like a fairy tale to me. Do you have anything to offer that might show me otherwise?

Hey...I drove the turnip truck.

No Z, I have nothing to offer except what is written and I have always found that to be the best source.

[whirlwind]

.

Many are “driven crazy� by all sorts of things (including “signs�). Condolences.

Thank you for your concern cowboy Z. It's appreciated.

You have not addressed the question of how you know that the things which you regard as “a coincidence is an impossibility� is from a PARTICULAR faith.

It isn't part of a "particular faith."

Finally I read where others were experiencing similar events and I was so relieved I actually cried.

Reinforcement from others can be emotionally uplifting.

True.

There are lots of people who experience signs. The odd thing is that the signs do not always direct people to the same conclusions.

Perhaps we're not to reach the "same conclusions." His plan may be for us to keep talking, keep discussing, keep thinking.

Or, there may be no “divine plan� and we discuss and debate because we disagree. Which seems the more rational suggestion?

Okay. I know why I care and why I discuss it. I can hope that the discussion will open eyes and a soul finds God. Why do you care? What do you accomplish if you steer someone away?

There may never be evidence enough for some.

Evidence should not be subjective. Present some evidence and we can evaluate it together.

In the carnal world perhaps "evidence should not be subjective" but not in the spiritual.

What one cannot substantiate (or “prove�), one should not offer as truth – particularly in debate.

I offer it because it is truth. Others may or may not accept it as such.

How does one prove the invisible?

Many things that are invisible can be proved to exist. The simplest and most common example might be AIR. Though it cannot be seen by us (i.e., invisible), we can detect its presence directly with our senses when we feel a breeze.

What CANNOT be proved is the UNDETECTABLE.

Ah, well then...that is a better choice of words. However, in my life and in the lives of many others the presence of the Holy Spirit is detectable. How do I prove that to you?

I can tell you one thing that happened to me. When I first began to really study a few years ago I was a total dunderhead regarding the Bible. I didn't have a clue what books were in the Old or New Testament...except for Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.


I took notes from a teacher on television and would then later write them down as I read from the Bible.

It is informative that you acknowledge being influenced by a televangelist.

I thought we covered this already? He isn't a televangelist. He teaches just as professors do. He covers the Bible chapter by chapter and verse by verse as we are supposed to and then one can truly learn. Or, one can go to church and listen to a sermon with two or three lines of scripture. I chose wisely.

]He covered a different book during each hour and I watched all five hours...taking notes during all of them. During one hour, I picked the Bible up and opened it to look for the verse. Three times the Bible opened on the page I was searching for! The first time I just smiled. The second time I was a little taken aback and the third time I was floored! That cannot be coincidence!

Yes it can be. I've studied statistics and really such things are not that difficult to explain. You really should read John Allen Paulos.

When that happened the "signs" I've spoken about also happened. It was no coincidence.

A person schooled in probability will tell you that such things CAN be coincidence.

Yes, and a non-believer may well believe them. I chose wisely.

What piqued my attention was numbers. I was, and still am, awakened in the middle of the night and the clock shows 11:44, 1:14, 4:11, etc. I see those numbers on signs, on car tags, on grocery receipts on forums...that number has been shown around you. I have a coffee pot with a clock I never reset after the electricity went off. It shows those numbers so often. Biblical numbers have meanings. These signs have meanings. After the Bible opened on the correct page three times I looked at the clock and yes....4:14! It was no coincidence McCulloch.

Many people become fixated on certain digits, thinking they have “significance� or they are a “lucky number� (or they are “signs�).

Notice there are only ten digits in standard mathematics. They occur adjacent to each other regularly and repeatedly. One who looks for “significance� notices when or how often the digits are together and disregards the much greater frequency of the chosen digits NOT appearing together.

The frequency of the other numbers holds no meaning to me. It is just 1 & 4.

I know you'll laugh or Z will scoff but it is what it is.

I do not scoff, and do not expect that you will change your thinking about “signs�. BUT, discerning readers can evaluate the merits of what is said and reach their own conclusions.

Unless the digits are being manipulated, there is no “meaning� in digit occurrence or frequency (in my opinion).

Do you think that some invisible force is manipulating the frequency of digits in your life? If so, how can you identify the force (with anything more than a guess)?

Of course I think an "invisible force" is causing me to see. What else would awaken me out of a sound sleep at 11:44? Not 11:45 or 11:43 but 11:44 or 4:14 or 1:44. It happens all the time Z. Last year my husband and I travelled to Atlanta to attend a wedding. My husband drives really fast and, being an old fuddy duddy, it makes me nervous. I started seeing the numbers on tags and signs and then felt safe. We got to our hotel and were given a key to room 413. When going up to the room I said, it should have been 414. Well we got there and guess what. They had given us the wrong key...we were indeed in 414.

Coincidence....no Z.

I went in for a medical procedure and was nervous...going under anesthesia. As they started it I glanced at my BP - 141. I smiled and drifted off. There are many more incidents that may not amount to a hill of beans to others but....I know what they are.

What are they?

Signs.

They awakened me to a spiritual pull. My mother, a very skeptical person, is often with me and I show her...."look Mom, look at the clock." She sees the numbers over and over and yet just shakes her head. I'm afraid she will never see, at least through those signs.

Have you observed that most clocks show the digits 4 and 1 repeatedly throughout the day?

Every day like clockwork but do you see those numbers repeated in your life constantly? I do.

These are not huge miracles but they are very special to me.

They are not miracles at all. But you have placed in them more importance than they merit.

And are you too just "shaking your head?"

Realists will tend to “shake their head� when told about the “significance� of digits that occur regularly.

Has it occurred to you that EVERYONE sees the same digits? Are all receiving “signs� from a “god� at 4:11 AM?

Do you see them constantly? If yes then....yes, they are a sign.

I see truth in our Father's Words given to Paul.

But I do not see the heavenly father's words in the writings of Paul. What is it about Paul's writings that convinces you that they are from God?

Two years ago I was taught by a poster on another forum about the "man child." That was a deep revelation...very profound. Paul's teaching goes into this.

I am unfamiliar with this. How does the profoundly deep revelation of the concept of the man child demonstrate that the heavenly Father truly inspired Paul?

It's a pretty involved study...best left for a separate thread.

So far that is a television preacher and an Internet forum post that are “profound� influences.

Perhaps you will open a thread and enlighten the uninformed?

Only if you ask really, really nicely.

We do not know everything. If we did, then research would end, being unnecessary. We do not yet know how life evolved from non-life. We have some interesting ideas to be tested. None of them involve a supernatural spirit.

Exactly...we do not nor can we "know everything" about the natural or the supernatural but He said.....

Some claim that their favorite “god� knows everything.

The One God does know everything.

Speaking often to one another on forums such as this one. Even questioning may well be part of the process. We are here for a reason...all of us.

My reason for being here is to help bible believers demonstrate that they have no claim on truth or knowledge – and to encourage people to THINK RATIONALLY and to make decisions based on observation, information and evidence from the real world.

Bible believers do have a claim on truth but, go ahead and try to encourage us to turn our backs on Him. That's a door you can't shut Z.

Revelation 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept My word, and hast not denied My name.

But you put your trust in humans. Their names are Paul, Luke, Matthew, John, Peter, James, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and others some of who's names are lost.

True, but they were chosen, they were led by God.

How do you know this? They claim to be chosen. They claim to be led by God. You only have their word on that. Joseph Smith claimed to be led by God. Why accept Paul and not Joseph Smith?

Oh McCulloch, you ask questions that are so difficult to answer.

He does ask difficult questions, doesn’t he? The reason that they are difficult is that bible believers have no rational answers.

Some claim that certain people were “chosen by god�; however, when asked to show that the claim is truth, they have nothing to say beyond “I think so� or “they said so� or “others think so�.

I see God's hand in the written Word. It is evident to me. I'm very sorry you don't see it.

I see God's story running through the pages of the Bible...the same story.

If you were not already a believer, you might not “see god’s story running through the pages of the bible� – but see the bible for what it is – stories written by storytellers and religious promoters long ago and far away.

And, if you weren't an unbeliever you might see Him in your life.

It is connected throughout. Joseph Smith may well have been led by God...I don't know but I do know that Christ said He foretold us all things. Those things are written. Those things I believe.

Your “belief� must be comforting to you. It might be best to hang on to that, no matter how illogical it seems to others, if you need the belief in your life.

All of us need Him in our life but not all of us recognize that.

Mark 13:30-34 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but My words shall not pass away. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

[whirlwind]

Assuming one is the father of Mary would be a hell of an inference, especially as Matthew has no problem naming women in his lineage. Plus if that Joseph (in Luke) were Mary's father it (1) wouldn't say Jesus was the SON of Joseph and (2) the lineage would be shorter not longer. Matt 1 gives Jesus to David in 28 generations while Luke does it in 32. I just counted. Why 14, 14 is meaningless without context. In Matthew's account it is 14 from Abraham to David, 14 from David to the carrying away into Babylon and then 14 from that until Jesus. Luke obviously just didn't care about making the numbers jive.

I think the greater question you should ask would be....why? Matthew stated....the "generation of Jesus Christ." They, as well as we, know He was born of Mary who was "found of child of the Holy Ghost." Why then would he not give us Mary's lineage, the blood lineage of Christ?

First off, Gabriel, being an angel is an angel of the Lord. One time he is named and the other time he is not. Aside from that, it is a fairly large thing to leave out on the part of either author.

The Lord has many angels. Is Gabriel The Angel of the Lord? What about Michael? If one account named Gabriel then why do you assume it was the same angel that was not so named in the other account? Nothing was left out. It was all covered in the two accounts.

I understand that you probably have a fairly limited knowledge of the history of first century Palestine but in first century Roman Palestine the two were the same thing. People were counted so that taxes could be taken. At the time Palestine was a client kingdom under Herod but Rome was in the process of making it into a province under the Governor of Syria. To bring it into the empire they conducted the first census in 6 CE whereby the populous could be enumerated and taxed. This is the first case of Roman taxation in the area and it occurs 12 years after the death of Herod the Great.

You are mistaken.

A Papyrus (in British Museum), being a rescript of the Prefect Gaius Vibius Maximus (A.D. 103-4), shows that Herod must have been acting under Roman orders. There is a large number of Papyri relating to those enrolments. See Deissmann's Light from the Ancient East, pp. 268, 269

Except all Hebrew names have meaning (many having to do with God like my middle name Michael which means "who is like God?"), Jesus was named Yeshua or Joshua in English (Jesus is the Koine Greek translation). Joshua loosely means "God Saves." The name in Isaiah is incorrect no matter how much spin you try to put on it.

Jesus means....Savior. The Greek form of the name Joshua or Jeshua, a contration of Johoshua, that is, "help of Jehovah, " or "Saviour." Num. 13:16 ~ Smith's Bible Dictionary

Immanuel means...God with us.

What spin do you see?

My assertion isn't a mistake. It is a historical fact. Josephus was one of the most critical historians to document Herod. He was not kind to the man at all and went into detail about all the horrible things Herod did to the Jews despite being the closest thing to a Jewish King they had had in a very long time. However, now where does Josephus mention this mass infanticide, which would have been by far the worst thing Herod ever committed. Strangely enough, no other historians on record (and there are a lot of them) mention it either.

I repeat....I can't comment as I've never studied it but I would think that you are in error....not Matthew.

I'd rather stick with my parallel readings and critical analysis thanks.

Okay. I guess it isn't yet time.

Galatians 4:2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

Except in Luke John didn't baptize Jesus. He was already in prison at that point, remember, Luke is supposedly chronological.

Again, you are mistaken. John baptizing Christ is clearly stated in the other gospels. In Luke it is written...."Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened." Who do you think baptized Him? Who else was hanging around doing the baptizing? John wasn't in prison then.

No, Luke goes from John talking about Jesus to Herod imprisoning him to Jesus being baptized without saying by whom.

Read it again, concerning John the Baptist....."But Herod the tetrarch, being reproved by him for Herodias his brother Philip's wife, and for all the evils which Herod had done, Added yet this above all, that he shut up John in prison."

It is saying....For all the evils the wicked man did you can add the one that is above all of them...that he shut up John in prison!!! It isn't saying he shut him up then but that it was among the list of evil things he did.

So in John the last supper is the day before Passover, in Mark it is the day of Passover, in Matt it is the day of passover, and in Luke it is on passover. Just as I said.

From a friend......

The sacrifice took place in the evening/s. Something that is not widely known, but easily proved....is that the Hebrew evening in scripture begins at High Noon (first Evening) and ends at sunset (Second Evening).

As you can see.....two translations have it pretty much nailed. They are "Young's Literal" and "The Darby Bible". The exact literal of the Hebrew, "Beyn ha Arbayim" is....."Between the Evenings (plural)". If you check the Gospels it will confirm that Our Savior died at 3:00 P.M., between noon and sunset, (between the evenings) [Matthew 27:45-50][Mark 15:33-37][Luke 23:44-46].

The first use of the word "Beyn" is in [Genesis 1:4] 4 And God seeth the light that it is good, and God separateth between the light and the darkness,

God separates the light from the darkness and He calls the light.....Day (verse 5) and He called the Darkness.....Night. (also verse 5).

Now, let's look at what he describes as Day (also verse 5), "And there was evening and there was morning.....the first day."

A critical thing to understand here is that evening was not (never was) part of night....it was part of the day!

[Genesis 1:5] 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. (the light part of the 24 hour period)

The Hebrew word, "Arbayim" is the plural of "Ereb"...... which means "evening".

The Passover was killed at 3:00 P.M. and the Days of Unleavened began after the sacrifice [Exodus 12:18]. The Feast of Unleavened Bread began at sunset [Leviticus 23:6] and the Passover was then eaten.

They were in a Roman client kingdom about to be annexed into the Roman empire. They used Roman currency with exception of in the temple itself, again this is a historical fact.

Where was Judas paid? Wasn't it "in the temple itself?" Weren't those paying him the priests...of the temple itself?

Not what it says.

Sure it does.

Again, not what it says, this is entirely inference on your part

As I said....I can only speculate.

Firstly, Jesus knew Judas was going to betray him so why say 12? Why not say 11? This means that Judas still gets a spot in heaven. Also, you didn't touch the fact that Paul says in 1 Cor 12:3-9 that Jesus appeared to the 12 meaning Judas didn't die.

The "twelve" is just reference to the apostles. For instance (after the death of Judas).....

John 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

1 Corinthians 15:5 And that He was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve.

[KennethM]

Assuming one is the father of Mary would be a hell of an inference, especially as Matthew has no problem naming women in his lineage. Plus if that Joseph (in Luke) were Mary's father it (1) wouldn't say Jesus was the SON of Joseph and (2) the lineage would be shorter not longer. Matt 1 gives Jesus to David in 28 generations while Luke does it in 32. I just counted. Why 14, 14 is meaningless without context. In Matthew's account it is 14 from Abraham to David, 14 from David to the carrying away into Babylon and then 14 from that until Jesus. Luke obviously just didn't care about making the numbers jive.

I think the greater question you should ask would be....why? Matthew stated....the "generation of Jesus Christ." They, as well as we, know He was born of Mary who was "found of child of the Holy Ghost." Why then would he not give us Mary's lineage, the blood lineage of Christ?

I don't know why he didn't, but that is definitely the case. Matthew has no problem naming women, but it isn't Matthew's genealogy which is incorrectly cited as Mary's, it is Luke's.

First off, Gabriel, being an angel is an angel of the Lord. One time he is named and the other time he is not. Aside from that, it is a fairly large thing to leave out on the part of either author.

The Lord has many angels. Is Gabriel The Angel of the Lord? What about Michael? If one account named Gabriel then why do you assume it was the same angel that was not so named in the other account? Nothing was left out. It was all covered in the two accounts.

Yes, all angels are so called angels of the Lord. The two accounts were supposed to be all inclusive. That is the aim of a gospel. To say, "oh no, Luke left this out because Matthew got it" is so flawed that I barely know where to begin.

I understand that you probably have a fairly limited knowledge of the history of first century Palestine but in first century Roman Palestine the two were the same thing. People were counted so that taxes could be taken. At the time Palestine was a client kingdom under Herod but Rome was in the process of making it into a province under the Governor of Syria. To bring it into the empire they conducted the first census in 6 CE whereby the populous could be enumerated and taxed. This is the first case of Roman taxation in the area and it occurs 12 years after the death of Herod the Great.

You are mistaken.

A Papyrus (in British Museum), being a rescript of the Prefect Gaius Vibius Maximus (A.D. 103-4), shows that Herod must have been acting under Roman orders. There is a large number of Papyri relating to those enrolments. See Deissmann's Light from the Ancient East, pp. 268, 269

Yes, that is what a client-kingdom is. A quasi-sovereign nation under the control of another. In this case, first century Israel (as well as all of first century Palestine) under control of Rome as a client-kingdom.

Except all Hebrew names have meaning (many having to do with God like my middle name Michael which means "who is like God?"), Jesus was named Yeshua or Joshua in English (Jesus is the Koine Greek translation). Joshua loosely means "God Saves." The name in Isaiah is incorrect no matter how much spin you try to put on it.

Jesus means....Savior. The Greek form of the name Joshua or Jeshua, a contration of Johoshua, that is, "help of Jehovah, " or "Saviour." Num. 13:16 ~ Smith's Bible Dictionary

Immanuel means...God with us.

What spin do you see?

Actually the Hebrew word for saviour is messiah. Yeshua means "YHVH saves." One is a thing and the other is an action. Just like my middle name, the meaning would change greatly if Michael wasn't a question.

The spin comes from you trying to rectify an incorrect naming in Isaiah by making the fact that many names in Hebrew have to do with God.

My assertion isn't a mistake. It is a historical fact. Josephus was one of the most critical historians to document Herod. He was not kind to the man at all and went into detail about all the horrible things Herod did to the Jews despite being the closest thing to a Jewish King they had had in a very long time. However, now where does Josephus mention this mass infanticide, which would have been by far the worst thing Herod ever committed. Strangely enough, no other historians on record (and there are a lot of them) mention it either.

I repeat....I can't comment as I've never studied it but I would think that you are in error....not Matthew.

I'm not. Matthew is, as he is with many things.

I'd rather stick with my parallel readings and critical analysis thanks.

Okay. I guess it isn't yet time.

Galatians 4:2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

Except in Luke John didn't baptize Jesus. He was already in prison at that point, remember, Luke is supposedly chronological.

Again, you are mistaken. John baptizing Christ is clearly stated in the other gospels. In Luke it is written...."Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened." Who do you think baptized Him? Who else was hanging around doing the baptizing? John wasn't in prison then.

There were tons of baptists in the area at that time. It wasn't a crazy idea as Jews had been using the mikvah as a means of cleansing themselves for centuries.

No, Luke goes from John talking about Jesus to Herod imprisoning him to Jesus being baptized without saying by whom.

Read it again, concerneing John the Baptist....."But Herod the tetrarch, being reproved by him for Herodias his brother Philip's wife, and for all the evils which Herod had done, Added yet this above all, that he shut up John in prison."

It is saying....For all the evils the wicked man did you can add the one that is above all of them...that he shut up John in prison!!! It isn't saying he shut him up then but that it was among the list of evil things he did.

Yes, Herod shut John up in prison. This means he put him in prison. This is an area that can be found in almost any literary source especially one as short as the gospels. Luke is simply fast forwarding to get to what he considered really mattered.

So in John the last supper is the day before Passover, in Mark it is the day of Passover, in Matt it is the day of passover, and in Luke it is on passover. Just as I said.

From a friend......

The sacrifice took place in the evening/s. Something that is not widely known, but easily proved....is that the Hebrew evening in scripture begins at High Noon (first Evening) and ends at sunset (Second Evening).

As you can see.....two translations have it pretty much nailed. They are "Young's Literal" and "The Darby Bible". The exact literal of the Hebrew, "Beyn ha Arbayim" is....."Between the Evenings (plural)". If you check the Gospels it will confirm that Our Savior died at 3:00 P.M., between noon and sunset, (between the evenings) [Matthew 27:45-50][Mark 15:33-37][Luke 23:44-46].

The first use of the word "Beyn" is in [Genesis 1:4] 4 And God seeth the light that it is good, and God separateth between the light and the darkness,

God separates the light from the darkness and He calls the light.....Day (verse 5) and He called the Darkness.....Night. (also verse 5).

Now, let's look at what he describes as Day (also verse 5), "And there was evening and there was morning.....the first day."

A critical thing to understand here is that evening was not (never was) part of night....it was part of the day!

[Genesis 1:5] 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. (the light part of the 24 hour period)

The Hebrew word, "Arbayim" is the plural of "Ereb"...... which means "evening".

The Passover was killed at 3:00 P.M. and the Days of Unleavened began after the sacrifice [Exodus 12:18]. The Feast of Unleavened Bread began at sunset [Leviticus 23:6] and the Passover was then eaten.

Sorry to say your friend is wrong in this matter. Jewish holidays start at sundown the previous day not noon. Sun down is considered night and is then the beginning of the next day. Also between the evenings is neither here nor there. 8 am is between the evenings, so is 4 pm so is 12 noon.

They were in a Roman client kingdom about to be annexed into the Roman empire. They used Roman currency with exception of in the temple itself, again this is a historical fact.

Where was Judas paid? Wasn't it "in the temple itself?" Weren't those paying him the priests...of the temple itself?

I believe it was where he kissed Jesus to betray him that he received payment, which was not in the temple. Beyond that, no matter what you think of the pharisees they were pious men who wouldn't use shekels (something very special to them) as payment for death, they would most likely use Roman coin.

Not what it says.

Sure it does.

I forget what this was about because of your editing out the discussion itself.

Again, not what it says, this is entirely inference on your part

As I said....I can only speculate.

Exactly. Inference.

Firstly, Jesus knew Judas was going to betray him so why say 12? Why not say 11? This means that Judas still gets a spot in heaven. Also, you didn't touch the fact that Paul says in 1 Cor 12:3-9 that Jesus appeared to the 12 meaning Judas didn't die.

The "twelve" is just reference to the apostles. For instance (after the death of Judas).....

John 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

1 Corinthians 15:5 And that He was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve.

That's just another spin, and again inference on your part as you have no real idea what the author "meant" when he used the term "the 12." Even serious theologians are divided on this part of the story. Matthew hurries through the story and gives it credibility by putting it in the mouth of Jeremiah but unfortunately ends up quoting Zechariah.

[whirlwind]

WW - I think the greater question you should ask would be....why? Matthew stated....the "generation of Jesus Christ." They, as well as we, know He was born of Mary who was "found of child of the Holy Ghost." Why then would he not give us Mary's lineage, the blood lineage of Christ?

KM - I don't know why he didn't, but that is definitely the case. Matthew has no problem naming women, but it isn't Matthew's genealogy which is incorrectly cited as Mary's, it is Luke's.

Matthew 1:16-17 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband (father) of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, Who is called Christ. So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.


If this Joseph, son of Jacob, was the husband of Mary then it was thirteen generations to Christ. If Joseph, son of Jacob, was the father of Mary then there were fourteen generations to Christ.

One must ask oneself.....was the father of Mary named Joseph as well as her husband? If yes, then the fourteen generations were...fourteen generations. Either Matthew lied and that lie is out there like a big stinking fish or there was an error in the translation of father/husband because of the same name Joseph.

I've made my choice...how about you? What sounds more logical? As Matthew was giving us "the generations to Christ" and as there are "begats" in this geneological line and as it is specifically named FOURTEEN generations then....what do you think?

In Luke, which just a week or so ago, I thought gave us the correct line to Christ I now see is the line to Joseph, step-father to Jesus. There are no begats given and it begins with....And Jesus Himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the Son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli. [Luke 3:23]

As was supposed is "as reckoned by law." I was taught that meant Joseph was the in-law of Heli through marriage to Mary but I believe I was wrong. It is more likely to mean that Jesus was "by law" son to Joseph.

Yes, all angels are so called angels of the Lord. The two accounts were supposed to be all inclusive. That is the aim of a gospel. To say, "oh no, Luke left this out because Matthew got it" is so flawed that I barely know where to begin.

The gospels aren't carbon copies of each other. Why would four of the same accounts be given? Seems a bit redundant to me.

Yes, that is what a client-kingdom is. A quasi-sovereign nation under the control of another. In this case, first century Israel (as well as all of first century Palestine) under control of Rome as a client-kingdom.

Okay but....so what? Your comment has nothing to do with the point being made. We were discussing the death of Herod.

Actually the Hebrew word for saviour is messiah. Yeshua means "YHVH saves." One is a thing and the other is an action. Just like my middle name, the meaning would change greatly if Michael wasn't a question.

The spin comes from you trying to rectify an incorrect naming in Isaiah by making the fact that many names in Hebrew have to do with God.

That is true...many names have "to do with God." However, there is One God and Immanuel was "God with us," in Yeshua, the Savior.

I'm not. Matthew is, as he is with many things.

Sorry....I still vote for Matthew.

Read it again, concerning John the Baptist....."But Herod the tetrarch, being reproved by him for Herodias his brother Philip's wife, and for all the evils which Herod had done, Added yet this above all, that he shut up John in prison."

It is saying....For all the evils the wicked man did you can add the one that is above all of them...that he shut up John in prison!!! It isn't saying he shut him up then but that it was among the list of evil things he did.

Yes, Herod shut John up in prison. This means he put him in prison. This is an area that can be found in almost any literary source especially one as short as the gospels. Luke is simply fast forwarding to get to what he considered really mattered.

There is no doubt Herod threw John in prison. The question is when. It was after the baptism of Christ.

So in John the last supper is the day before Passover, in Mark it is the day of Passover, in Matt it is the day of passover, and in Luke it is on passover. Just as I said.

From a friend......

The sacrifice took place in the evening/s. Something that is not widely known, but easily proved....is that the Hebrew evening in scripture begins at High Noon (first Evening) and ends at sunset (Second Evening).

As you can see.....two translations have it pretty much nailed. They are "Young's Literal" and "The Darby Bible". The exact literal of the Hebrew, "Beyn ha Arbayim" is....."Between the Evenings (plural)". If you check the Gospels it will confirm that Our Savior died at 3:00 P.M., between noon and sunset, (between the evenings) [Matthew 27:45-50][Mark 15:33-37][Luke 23:44-46].

The first use of the word "Beyn" is in [Genesis 1:4] 4 And God seeth the light that it is good, and God separateth between the light and the darkness,

God separates the light from the darkness and He calls the light.....Day (verse 5) and He called the Darkness.....Night. (also verse 5).

Now, let's look at what he describes as Day (also verse 5), "And there was evening and there was morning.....the first day."

A critical thing to understand here is that evening was not (never was) part of night....it was part of the day!

[Genesis 1:5] 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. (the light part of the 24 hour period)

The Hebrew word, "Arbayim" is the plural of "Ereb"...... which means "evening".

The Passover was killed at 3:00 P.M. and the Days of Unleavened began after the sacrifice [Exodus 12:18]. The Feast of Unleavened Bread began at sunset [Leviticus 23:6] and the Passover was then eaten.

Sorry to say your friend is wrong in this matter. Jewish holidays start at sundown the previous day not noon. Sun down is considered night and is then the beginning of the next day. Also between the evenings is neither here nor there. 8 am is between the evenings, so is 4 pm so is 12 noon.

Please read it again.

KM - They were in a Roman client kingdom about to be annexed into the Roman empire. They used Roman currency with exception of in the temple itself, again this is a historical fact.

WW - Where was Judas paid? Wasn't it "in the temple itself?" Weren't those paying him the priests...of the temple itself?

KM - I believe it was where he kissed Jesus to betray him that he received payment, which was not in the temple. Beyond that, no matter what you think of the pharisees they were pious men who wouldn't use shekels (something very special to them) as payment for death, they would most likely use Roman coin.

Why would you "believe" that? It is written....

Matthew 27:3-5 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.


"Pious men???" They were the [Rev.3:9] Jews which say they are Jews but do lie and are the synagogue of Satan. Pious men? Pious murderers! You think a little thing like using silver would bother them?

Firstly, Jesus knew Judas was going to betray him so why say 12? Why not say 11? This means that Judas still gets a spot in heaven. Also, you didn't touch the fact that Paul says in 1 Cor 12:3-9 that Jesus appeared to the 12 meaning Judas didn't die.

The "twelve" is just reference to the apostles. For instance (after the death of Judas).....

John 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

1 Corinthians 15:5 And that He was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve.

That's just another spin, and again inference on your part as you have no real idea what the author "meant" when he used the term "the 12." Even serious theologians are divided on this part of the story. Matthew hurries through the story and gives it credibility by putting it in the mouth of Jeremiah but unfortunately ends up quoting Zechariah.

Sure...I'm wrong and Judas didn't die. He sat around with the other eleven.