Who impregnated Mary?

[Zzyzx]

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Who impregnated Mary?

If Jesus was “the son of god�, then “god� must be the father – and must have impregnated her.

However, doesn’t “scripture� say that Mary was impregnated by “the holy spirit�? Aren’t “god the father� and “the holy spirit� supposed to be DIFFERENT parts of the triad?

Wouldn’t that make Jesus the “son of the holy spirit�?

Was there an “angel� involved?

[whirlwind]

Yes,almost any scenario is possible, except the Jesus was God part...IMO.

Well, I thank you for that much at least. Perhaps the rest, the important part, will come eventually.

You are welcome. Since we agree that 'almost any scenario is possible', you seem to admit that the bible contains no absolute truths? If you want me to believe otherwise, bring on the evidence.

No...that isn't what I'm saying. You were open enough to see the possibility of what I wrote. That is a step forward.

The Bible does contain truth for it is truth. "If you want me to believe otherwise, bring on the evidence."

Many times there are what appear to be contradictions. Upon further study and revelation we are given to understand.

[McCulloch]

The same story is foretold here.....

Psalms 22:1, 7-8 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? (7-8) All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

22:14-18 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

And this would have been quite impressive if

1. the writers of the Gospels were unaware of the prophesies.
2. There had been any independent validation of the events of Jesus crucifixion.

The double blind achieves the highest degree of rigor.

[Goat]

The same story is foretold here.....

Psalms 22:1, 7-8 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? (7-8) All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

22:14-18 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

And this would have been quite impressive if

1. the writers of the Gospels were unaware of the prophesies.
2. There had been any independent validation of the events of Jesus crucifixion.

The double blind achieves the highest degree of rigor.

And, of course, if there wasn't the purposeful mistranslation of 'pierced'

There are two variations of the text.. one has the verb as 'to dig' and the other has it as 'like a lion'. Neither terms were ever translated as 'pierced' in any other place ever.

[whirlwind]

The same story is foretold here.....

Psalms 22:1, 7-8 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? (7-8) All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

22:14-18 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

And this would have been quite impressive if

1. the writers of the Gospels were unaware of the prophesies.
2. There had been any independent validation of the events of Jesus crucifixion.

The double blind achieves the highest degree of rigor.

And, of course, if there wasn't the purposeful mistranslation of 'pierced'

There are two variations of the text.. one has the verb as 'to dig' and the other has it as 'like a lion'. Neither terms were ever translated as 'pierced' in any other place ever.

That isn't quite true Goat.

Pierced #738 ~ in the sense of violence; a lion; (young) lion, = pierce.

Psalm 58:6 Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD.

Psalm 91:13 Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.

Isaiah 30:6 The burden of the beasts of the south: into the land of trouble and anguish, from whence come the young and old lion, the viper and fiery flying serpent, they will carry their riches upon the shoulders of young asses, and their treasures upon the bunches of camels, to a people that shall not profit them.

They are those that pierced the Lord. The serpent, the dragon and the young lions.

[Goat]

The same story is foretold here.....

Psalms 22:1, 7-8 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? (7-8) All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

22:14-18 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

And this would have been quite impressive if

1. the writers of the Gospels were unaware of the prophesies.
2. There had been any independent validation of the events of Jesus crucifixion.

The double blind achieves the highest degree of rigor.

And, of course, if there wasn't the purposeful mistranslation of 'pierced'

There are two variations of the text.. one has the verb as 'to dig' and the other has it as 'like a lion'. Neither terms were ever translated as 'pierced' in any other place ever.

That isn't quite true Goat.

Pierced #738 ~ in the sense of violence; a lion; (young) lion, = pierce.

Psalm 58:6 Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD.

Psalm 91:13 Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.

Isaiah 30:6 The burden of the beasts of the south: into the land of trouble and anguish, from whence come the young and old lion, the viper and fiery flying serpent, they will carry their riches upon the shoulders of young asses, and their treasures upon the bunches of camels, to a people that shall not profit them.

They are those that pierced the Lord. The serpent, the dragon and the young lions.

That is the 'strong' reinterpetation. However, you won't find anybody who is educated in biblical Hebrew that will make that claim

Tell you what. show me another place where ka’ari (like a lion) is translated as pierced. This is the word that is found in the Masoretic text.

Then, let's take at the hebrew word karu found in the DDS. It means 'to dig'
Find another place where Karu is translated as pierced. Of course, the DDS is very highly degraded, and not everyone is convinced that it is Karah.

Can you show me any other text that has karu translated as 'pierced'?? Can you show me any other text that has Ka'ari translated as pierced?

[whirlwind]

The same story is foretold here.....

Psalms 22:1, 7-8 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? (7-8) All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

22:14-18 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

And this would have been quite impressive if

1. the writers of the Gospels were unaware of the prophesies.
2. There had been any independent validation of the events of Jesus crucifixion.

The double blind achieves the highest degree of rigor.

And, of course, if there wasn't the purposeful mistranslation of 'pierced'

There are two variations of the text.. one has the verb as 'to dig' and the other has it as 'like a lion'. Neither terms were ever translated as 'pierced' in any other place ever.

That isn't quite true Goat.

Pierced #738 ~ in the sense of violence; a lion; (young) lion, = pierce.

Psalm 58:6 Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD.

Psalm 91:13 Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.

Isaiah 30:6 The burden of the beasts of the south: into the land of trouble and anguish, from whence come the young and old lion, the viper and fiery flying serpent, they will carry their riches upon the shoulders of young asses, and their treasures upon the bunches of camels, to a people that shall not profit them.

They are those that pierced the Lord. The serpent, the dragon and the young lions.

That is the 'strong' reinterpetation. However, you won't find anybody who is educated in biblical Hebrew that will make that claim

Tell you what. show me another place where ka’ari (like a lion) is translated as pierced. This is the word that is found in the Masoretic text.

Then, let's take at the hebrew word karu found in the DDS. It means 'to dig'
Find another place where Karu is translated as pierced. Of course, the DDS is very highly degraded, and not everyone is convinced that it is Karah.

Can you show me any other text that has karu translated as 'pierced'?? Can you show me any other text that has Ka'ari translated as pierced?

You miss the big picture Goat....

Matthew 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

The serpent (the talking serpent from the garden) and the dragon and the young lions are those that pierced the Lord. They are the great big camel you're swallowing while you swat at the gnat.

Psalms 22:14-18 I am poured out like water, and all My bones are out of joint: My heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of My bowels. My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and My tongue cleaveth to My jaws; and thou hast brought Me into the dust of death. For dogs have compassed Me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed Me: they pierced My hands and My feet. I may tell all My bones: they look and stare upon Me. They part My garments among them, and cast lots upon My vesture.

Those that piereced Him are the assembly of the wicked. That same assembly are carrying out the same process with the "bones" of His body today. Those that are His hands and His feet....are His elect and they are being pierced by the wicked.

[Goat]

You miss the big picture Goat....

Matthew 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

The serpent (the talking serpent from the garden) and the dragon and the young lions are those that pierced the Lord. They are the great big camel you're swallowing while you swat at the gnat.

How is an out of context quote that has nothing to do with what is being discussed the 'big picture'? There is no connection between that and the words in the psalm at all. Please back up your statement with something that actually has a connection with the topic.

Psalms 22:14-18 I am poured out like water, and all My bones are out of joint: My heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of My bowels. My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and My tongue cleaveth to My jaws; and thou hast brought Me into the dust of death. For dogs have compassed Me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed Me: they pierced My hands and My feet. I may tell all My bones: they look and stare upon Me. They part My garments among them, and cast lots upon My vesture.

Those that piereced Him are the assembly of the wicked. That same assembly are carrying out the same process with the "bones" of His body today. Those that are His hands and His feet....are His elect and they are being pierced by the wicked.

Repeating a mistranslation does not make the translation any truer. For you to try to refute my point, you have to give me another incidence where either "like a lion" or 'to dig' have been translated as 'pierced'.

[whirlwind]

You miss the big picture Goat....

Matthew 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

The serpent (the talking serpent from the garden) and the dragon and the young lions are those that pierced the Lord. They are the great big camel you're swallowing while you swat at the gnat.

How is an out of context quote that has nothing to do with what is being discussed the 'big picture'? There is no connection between that and the words in the psalm at all. Please back up your statement with something that actually has a connection with the topic.

Psalms 22:14-18 I am poured out like water, and all My bones are out of joint: My heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of My bowels. My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and My tongue cleaveth to My jaws; and thou hast brought Me into the dust of death. For dogs have compassed Me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed Me: they pierced My hands and My feet. I may tell all My bones: they look and stare upon Me. They part My garments among them, and cast lots upon My vesture.

Those that piereced Him are the assembly of the wicked. That same assembly are carrying out the same process with the "bones" of His body today. Those that are His hands and His feet....are His elect and they are being pierced by the wicked.

Repeating a mistranslation does not make the translation any truer. For you to try to refute my point, you have to give me another incidence where either "like a lion" or 'to dig' have been translated as 'pierced'.

No, I don't have to. Your "point" isn't the point. You quibble about piercing when a deeper truth has been revealed. Those that pierced Him are....the young lions! Not Rome, not just the temple rulers but the young lions, the serpent and dragon...pierced Him.

[Slopeshoulder]

You miss the big picture Goat....

Matthew 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

The serpent (the talking serpent from the garden) and the dragon and the young lions are those that pierced the Lord. They are the great big camel you're swallowing while you swat at the gnat.

How is an out of context quote that has nothing to do with what is being discussed the 'big picture'? There is no connection between that and the words in the psalm at all. Please back up your statement with something that actually has a connection with the topic.

Psalms 22:14-18 I am poured out like water, and all My bones are out of joint: My heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of My bowels. My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and My tongue cleaveth to My jaws; and thou hast brought Me into the dust of death. For dogs have compassed Me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed Me: they pierced My hands and My feet. I may tell all My bones: they look and stare upon Me. They part My garments among them, and cast lots upon My vesture.

Those that piereced Him are the assembly of the wicked. That same assembly are carrying out the same process with the "bones" of His body today. Those that are His hands and His feet....are His elect and they are being pierced by the wicked.

Repeating a mistranslation does not make the translation any truer. For you to try to refute my point, you have to give me another incidence where either "like a lion" or 'to dig' have been translated as 'pierced'.

No, I don't have to. Your "point" isn't the point. You quibble about piercing when a deeper truth has been revealed. Those that pierced Him are....the young lions! Not Rome, not just the temple rulers but the young lions, the serpent and dragon...pierced Him.

Can you explain to me what this point means? I'm not challenging, just trying to understand the point that has been 'revealed,' expressed, illuminated, or expressed as you see it.

[whirlwind]

Can you explain to me what this point means? I'm not challenging, just trying to understand the point that has been 'revealed,' expressed, illuminated, or expressed as you see it.

Hi Slopeshoulder.

Psalm 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

That Psalm, I believe, is clearly a prophecy of the crucifixion. What was fascinating to me was that pierced, in that usage, is young lions.

Pierced #738 ~ the sense of violence; a lion (young lion) pierce.

Do a search of young lions and you'll find they are led by the dragon, the serpent, etc. They are the "assembly of the wicked" that pierced the Lord. They are the same group of young lions that pierce those He indwells today.