Jews and Jesus

[naz]

- Some Questions for Debate -

* Are Jews for Jesus?
* What are some common reasons for Jewish people not believing in Jesus?
* Are Jewish people no different than the pagans that killed Christ for turning their backs on him?
* Are Jewish people ungrateful for not believing and is that why they haven’t had any other messengers from god in over 2,000+ years?

Debate and justify your reasons.

[WinePusher]

Good questons.

* Are Jews for Jesus?

I would say so. All religions seemingly view the person of Jesus with relative respect and reverence, but do not bestow upon him "God" status as christians do.

* What are some common reasons for Jewish people not believing in Jesus?

Well, the biggest one would be that the Jews were promised by most OT prophets to be liberated and saved by the coming of the Messiah. They were held captive in Babylon, they were persecuted by Antiochus IV, and right before Jesus, they were essentially a colony of Rome. And the the messiah was said to be of the line of David, so I'd say the Jews were expecting a type of warrior/savior who would wipe of the enemies of Israel. But instead, there came a "pacifist" guy preaching love of neighbor and so on. So the expectations of the Jews were maybe put in the wrong place.

* Are Jewish people no different than the pagans that killed Christ for turning their backs on him?

No, in the christian tradition: the Jews did not put Jesus on the cross, it was my sins and yours that crucified him.

* Are Jewish people ungrateful for not believing and is that why they haven’t had any other messengers from god in over 2,000+ years?

Replacement theologians probably would believe the Jews have "fell" from grace and are no longer God's chosen people because they rejected Jesus. But looking at Jewish history, these people constantly rebelled and disobeyed but still maintained favor with God. As a Judeo Christian, I'd say Jews are still saved by the cross even though they reject Jesus. And they certainly aren't ungrateful, maybe mislead, but not ungrateful.

[Goat]

- Some Questions for Debate -

* Are Jews for Jesus?

If a group is 'for Jesus', they are not Jews. Period.

* What are some common reasons for Jewish people not believing in Jesus?

He didn't full fill the requirements for the Jewish Messiah for one. Then, claiming Jesus is God (or the literal Son of God) is a strike against the very core of the Jewish religion.

* Are Jewish people no different than the pagans that killed Christ for turning their backs on him?

The fact you asked that shows a certain prejudice and bigotry against non-christians to begin with. However, I will just point out that the method of execution for Jesus would be against the Jewish law, but very much in line with Roman executions.

* Are Jewish people ungrateful for not believing and is that why they haven’t had any other messengers from god in over 2,000+ years?

Do you think the Jewish people are ungrateful for being persecuted, have pogroms against them, burnt at the stake, and murdered just because they refuse to give up their faith in God??

Oh odd.

[naz]

I would say so. All religions seemingly view the person of Jesus with relative respect and reverence, but do not bestow upon him "God" status as christians do.

I would like to think so as well, and I would like to think they don’t let outside sources sway their intellectual ability to reason and understand who Jesus really was. To bestow God status on Jesus like they do Moses and others?

Well, the biggest one would be that the Jews were promised by most OT prophets to be liberated and saved by the coming of the Messiah. They were held captive in Babylon, they were persecuted by Antiochus IV, and right before Jesus, they were essentially a colony of Rome. And the the messiah was said to be of the line of David, so I'd say the Jews were expecting a type of warrior/savior who would wipe of the enemies of Israel. But instead, there came a "pacifist" guy preaching love of neighbor and so on. So the expectations of the Jews were maybe put in the wrong place.

Nothing wrong with a pacifist, and I can see why their expectations may be misplaced especially if they hoped, wished, and prayed for someone along the line of David to show up who was a Warrior / Slayer / Savior. Makes me wonder how they could ever follow the commandments and still pray something like this.

No, in the christian tradition: the Jews did not put Jesus on the cross, it was my sins and yours that crucified him.

Really, but wasn’t it Judas a Jewish person that turn against Jesus and eventually lead him to being crucified. He basically betrayed Jesus and was a Jewish person. And now Jewish people have turned their backs on Jesus so to speak. I don’t see how brushing the sins off of one group of people onto another solve any differences. I don’t think that is what Jesus taught, or is it? Maybe it is a lesson he left for them to learn from and understand instead of having messengers constantly come to their aid.

Replacement theologians probably would believe the Jews have "fell" from grace and are no longer God's chosen people because they rejected Jesus. But looking at Jewish history, these people constantly rebelled and disobeyed but still maintained favor with God. As a Judeo Christian, I'd say Jews are still saved by the cross even though they reject Jesus. And they certainly aren't ungrateful, maybe mislead, but not ungrateful.

Fell from grace does seem to put it mildly and I can see why they would no longer be considered God’s chosen people for rejecting Jesus. Mislead might sound like a better word to use, mislead by their own expectations.

[naz]

If a group is 'for Jesus', they are not Jews. Period.

You can be a Jewish person and still believe in the message of Christ. I guess you could call it “taking a leap of faith!� Or is Jesus the diving line between what a Jewish person and what a Jewish person isn’t?

He didn't full fill the requirements for the Jewish Messiah for one. Then, claiming Jesus is God (or the literal Son of God) is a strike against the very core of the Jewish religion.

Well when is that person going to come, the one to fulfill the requirements to be considered the Jewish Messiah? Claiming Jesus to be god and saying Jesus is the Son of God is two entirely different things.

The fact you asked that shows a certain prejudice and bigotry against non-christians to begin with. However, I will just point out that the method of execution for Jesus would be against the Jewish law, but very much in line with Roman executions.

Well I’m curious to know, according to the Jewish people are the events leading to Jesus death involving Judas fact or fiction?

Do you think the Jewish people are ungrateful for being persecuted, have pogroms against them, burnt at the stake, and murdered just because they refuse to give up their faith in God??

Oh odd.

How can you have a hold of faith if you never had a firm grip to begin with.

[Cathar1950]

- Some Questions for Debate -

* Are Jews for Jesus?

If a group is 'for Jesus', they are not Jews. Period.

* What are some common reasons for Jewish people not believing in Jesus?

He didn't full fill the requirements for the Jewish Messiah for one. Then, claiming Jesus is God (or the literal Son of God) is a strike against the very core of the Jewish religion.

* Are Jewish people no different than the pagans that killed Christ for turning their backs on him?

The fact you asked that shows a certain prejudice and bigotry against non-christians to begin with. However, I will just point out that the method of execution for Jesus would be against the Jewish law, but very much in line with Roman executions.

* Are Jewish people ungrateful for not believing and is that why they haven’t had any other messengers from god in over 2,000+ years?

Do you think the Jewish people are ungrateful for being persecuted, have pogroms against them, burnt at the stake, and murdered just because they refuse to give up their faith in God??

Oh odd.

Most of us would not object to Jews for Philo but it becomes a Jewish problem when they make Jesus God.
I have my doubt about Jesus being a pacifist.
I suspect Judas was an invention. He was probably one of his brothers, Jude.
Paul talks about Jesus being betrayed which uses the work meaning handed over. Maybe the Jewish High Priest handed him over to the Romans as he worked for the Romans. The unknown author of Mark being a Pauline Gentile Christian was using the disciples in a poor light along with Jews, and even Jesus' family.
Even the Phareesees seem to be on rather friendly bases with Jesus as the warn him about Herod and seem to have fairly friendly discussions as well as agreement. Acts has the Jewish followers of Jesus living peacefully with Jews and held in good esteem.
The author of Mark was trying to show how Jesus was innocent in the aftermath of the First Jewish war.
Of course there were a number of Anointed in the times of Jesus such as Judas the Galilean so being anointed would not be a crime against the Jews.

[Goat]

If a group is 'for Jesus', they are not Jews. Period.

You can be a Jewish person and still believe in the message of Christ. I guess you could call it “taking a leap of faith!� Or is Jesus the diving line between what a Jewish person and what a Jewish person isn’t?

The dividing line is .. if you use the New Testament for your religious writings, you are no Jewish, you are Christian. To use the concept of 'Salvation' for the next world is Christian, not Jewish. To have someone 'die for your sins' to bring 'salvation' is Christian, not Jewish.

He didn't full fill the requirements for the Jewish Messiah for one. Then, claiming Jesus is God (or the literal Son of God) is a strike against the very core of the Jewish religion.

Well when is that person going to come, the one to fulfill the requirements to be considered the Jewish Messiah? Claiming Jesus to be god and saying Jesus is the Son of God is two entirely different things.

..
For one, we never got a 'home grown king' over Israel. We did not have 1000 years of peace, where the Torah is made the center of the entire worlds religious practices for another.

And 'literal son of God'.. (not metaphorically like King David) is very much against the core of the Jewish religion. Come to think of it, the Christian concept of 'salvation' is too.

The fact you asked that shows a certain prejudice and bigotry against non-christians to begin with. However, I will just point out that the method of execution for Jesus would be against the Jewish law, but very much in line with Roman executions.

Well I’m curious to know, according to the Jewish people are the events leading to Jesus death involving Judas fact or fiction?

It really is not discussed. It is totally irrelevant, except to point out that the events as described in the Gospels are very much against the Jewish law at the time , and the Roman law at the time too. In Jewish law, having an arrest and a trial during the High Holy Days, as is described in the Gospels, is forbidden. To have a capital trial that takes less that 3 days is forbidden. To have a judgment where people don't go out to find any reason not to execute someone for a 30 day period is forbidden.. and crucifixion as a method of execution is not one of the 4 allowed methods under Jewish law.

To me, that points to fiction. That is probably why a couple of hundred years later, the story of the trial is Jesus is put in the Talmud, showing that all the laws and forms were done properly.. and not this illegal 'midnight trial'. It doesn't mean that it happened, it means that there was a 'counter story' that developed to say 'We didn't break the law'.

t"] Do you think the Jewish people are ungrateful for being persecuted, have pogroms against them, burnt at the stake, and murdered just because they refuse to give up their faith in God??

Oh odd.

How can you have a hold of faith if you never had a firm grip to begin with.[/quote]

You don't understand Judaism very well, do you?

[naz]

You don't understand Judaism very well, do you?

No, I just see it has a 100 reasons not to believe opposed to 100 reasons to do so. I can understand fending people off with a stick but this doesn't make any sense.

[myth-one.com]

* What are some common reasons for Jewish people not believing in Jesus?

But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honor, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.

Jesus, the Son of God? That can't be! I grew up with him. We played together as children. He was one of Mary and Joseph's kids. You know, that carpenter.

[Cathar1950]

You don't understand Judaism very well, do you?

No, I just see it has a 100 reasons not to believe opposed to 100 reasons to do so. I can understand fending people off with a stick but this doesn't make any sense.

Let us see you 200 reasons.
What doesn't make sense to you? Do you think you might explain yourself?

How can you have a hold of faith if you never had a firm grip to begin with.

What do you mean my this?