Islam and its apostates: kill all, or kill only some?

[EduChris]

Some questions for Muslims:

What does the Qur'an teach about killing those who convert from Islam to another faith?

What do the Islamic haddiths depict Mohammad as teaching about the execution of those who convert from Islam to another faith?

What does Islamic Sharia law say about killing those who convert from Islam to another faith?

How does all of this relate to the Qur'anic insistance that there should be "no compulsion" in religion?

[Fatihah]

Some questions for Muslims:

What does the Qur'an teach about killing those who convert from Islam to another faith?

What do the Islamic haddiths depict Mohammad as teaching about the execution of those who convert from Islam to another faith?

What does Islamic Sharia law say about killing those who convert from Islam to another faith?

How does all of this relate to the Qur'anic insistance that there should be "no compulsion" in religion?

Response: Nothing in the qur'an or sunnah condones the concept of killing apostates simply because they choose another religion. The killing of apostates is when the apostate turns to wage war with the muslims or there reasons to embrace islam was simply a strategy of war to know the ways of muslims, only to later convert back to their religion and wage war on the basis of what they learned. Even in many governments, the act of treason is or was punishable by death.

[McCulloch]

Response: Nothing in the qur'an or sunnah condones the concept of killing apostates simply because they choose another religion. The killing of apostates is when the apostate turns to wage war with the muslims or there reasons to embrace islam was simply a strategy of war to know the ways of muslims, only to later convert back to their religion and wage war on the basis of what they learned. Even in many governments, the act of treason is or was punishable by death.

Thank you for that clarification. Many of us who are not Muslims have read or heard that the Qur'an condemns to death, without qualification, apostates to Islam. You can help us out further by providing a reference to where in the Qur'an this limitation to who can be justly killed for apostasy can be found. Thanks in advance.

[EduChris]

...help us out further by providing a reference to where in the Qur'an this limitation to who can be justly killed for apostasy can be found...

Yes, and if such limitations do indeed exist, then please also explain why today ordinary, non-militant people who leave Islam (after having been born into it) are subject to death and threats of death by Islamic authorities who wield the Qur'an, the Islamic haddiths, and Islamic Sharia law.

I have also heard that some Islamic clerics are calling for the death of any and all Americans, simply on the basis that one misguided "pastor" (who appears not to be a member of, or educated by, any known Christian denomination) has called for the burnings of Qur'ans as a way of protesting the radical Islamic terrorists who killed 3000 people here in the USA nine years ago. Is burning the Qur'an punishable by death in Islam? And if so, how is this compatible with "no compulsion in religion"?

[Pazuzu bin Hanbi]

http://www.islamicthought.org/icit-books.html

2nd from bottom. I have that book. It lays down its arguments using Qur’ân, Hadith and the life of Muhammad. It points to judicial sources too. Apostasy results in death in Islâm. As horrific as that seems to other muslims who don’t want that to be true, it is.

[Fatihah]

In the qur'an we read:

"there is no compulsion in religion" (2:256).

"Allah forbids you not respecting those who have fought against you on account of yout religion, and who have not driven you out from your homes, that you be kind to them and deal equitably with them, surely Allah loves those who are equitable" (ch. 60:8).

Here we can read two clear verses which forbids harming those who do not harm you and harming those to convert them to islam. So where does this idea of killing apostates come from? Read carefully:

"What is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties concerning the hypocrites? And Allah has overthrown them because of what they earned. Desired ye to guide him whom Allah has caused to perish? And for him who Allah causes to perish thou shalt not find a way.

They wish that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you may become alike. Take not, therefore, friends from among them, until they emigrate in the way of Allah. And if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take no friend nor helper from among them". (ch4:88-89).

"Kill those who changw their religion". (Sahih Bukhari).

From the verses in chapter 4 and hadiths similar to the one above, it appears to the naked eye that apostates are to be killed. Let us analyze.

The verses of the qur'an does not refer to killing those simply because they left islam. For starters, it refers to hypocrites, not apostates. A hypocrite is one who pretends to be muslims but does not have islam in their heart. An apostate is when who accepts islam, not pretending, then leaves islam due to their belief in a new belief. With that said, does the verse mean to kill people simply because they are hypocrites? Not at all. The very next verse clears that up.

"Except those who are connected with a people between whom and you there is a pact, or those who come to you, while their hearts shrink from fighting you or fighting their own people....."

Thus the verse speaks of killing those hypocrites who fight you. Notice the verse above which states if the hypocrites do not emigrate in the way of Allah and how Allah has overthrown "them". "Them" refers to the past tense, thus Allah is referring to a certain group of hypocrites. These hypocrites pretended to be muslims but were really not. When it came time to the pligrimage (emigrate), they turned back. Muslims who refuse to take the pilgrimage and turn to fight the muslims instead? Clearly, these were the enemies of islam who were disguising themselves as muslims in order to blend with the muslims, causing confusion and chaos which would benefit them on the battlefield. As such, they were to be killed.

Coming to the hadith, Muhammad says kill those who change there religion. That's it. Full stop. No explanation at all. As such, people have used this hadith to refer to apostates. But if we are going to take it in it's literal sense and not refer to relating hadiths, then that would mean that it's also o.k. to kill someone who converts to islam! After all, they changed their religion as the hadith says right?

Yet no muslim interprets it that way. Then if that's the case, it should not be interpreted to kill those who convert from islam. What should be done is, because the hadith is so ambigious, is to refer it to other hadiths and the qur'an. And since we can clearly see that killing those who do not attack you is forbidden in islam, then the only logical interpretion should be that Muhammad was referring to apoststes who war or those who embrace islam only as a war tactic to get closer the muslims and use their closeness as an advantage in war.

[Pazuzu bin Hanbi]

Let me also point out that a murderer may declare: “I don’t kill people!� Just because it SAYS something doesn’t make it true.

And YOU are taking that ayat out of context. The context of revelation was muslim children, adopted by Jews because because Muslims feared violence, being forced to convert to another religion. This was then applied generally to stop pagans from forcing muslims to renounce their faith.

As in “there is no compulsion in religion, so let muslims stay muslims�. There is nothing about people being able to pick & choose their own religion.

[EduChris]

...the only logical interpretion should be that Muhammad was referring to apoststes who war or those who embrace islam only as a war tactic to get closer the muslims and use their closeness as an advantage in war.

Okay, Muslims disagree about how to interpret the Qur'an. They also disagree on the interpretation of Islamic haddiths and the Sharia law.

This disagreement among Muslims on the matter of killing apostates, killing those who "blaspheme," killing those who draw pictures of Mohammad, killing those who burn Qur'ans, and so on--how is this confused state of Islamic thinking, this muddled interpretation that leads to mass murder, how is that supposed to be encouraging to those who want to claim that the Qur'an is the "perfect" book and that Islam is the "perfect" religion and that Mohammad was the "final" prophet? Doesn't the murderous chaos of Islamic interpretation simply point out that today's Muslims are in no better shape than the people were before Mohammad's time?

When will Islam have a "reformation" that insists that the Qur'anic prohibition against "compulsion in religion" really means what it says?

http://www.islamicthought.org/icit-books.html

2nd from bottom. I have that book. It lays down its arguments using Qur’ân, Hadith and the life of Muhammad. It points to judicial sources too. Apostasy results in death in Islâm. As horrific as that seems to other muslims who don’t want that to be true, it is.

Thanks for the good resources.

[Fatihah]

Let me also point out that a murderer may declare: “I don’t kill people!� Just because it SAYS something doesn’t make it true.

And YOU are taking that ayat out of context. The context of revelation was muslim children, adopted by Jews because because Muslims feared violence, being forced to convert to another religion. This was then applied generally to stop pagans from forcing muslims to renounce their faith.

As in “there is no compulsion in religion, so let muslims stay muslims�. There is nothing about people being able to pick & choose their own religion.

Response: Nothing of what you just stated is in the qur'an nor can you quote otherwise. Thus it's not out of context, for it was never context to begin with.

[Fatihah]

...the only logical interpretion should be that Muhammad was referring to apoststes who war or those who embrace islam only as a war tactic to get closer the muslims and use their closeness as an advantage in war.

Okay, Muslims disagree about how to interpret the Qur'an. They also disagree on the interpretation of Islamic haddiths and the Sharia law.

This disagreement among Muslims on the matter of killing apostates, killing those who "blaspheme," killing those who draw pictures of Mohammad, killing those who burn Qur'ans, and so on--how is this confused state of Islamic thinking, this muddled interpretation that leads to mass murder, how is that supposed to be encouraging to those who want to claim that the Qur'an is the "perfect" book and that Islam is the "perfect" religion and that Mohammad was the "final" prophet? Doesn't the murderous chaos of Islamic interpretation simply point out that today's Muslims are in no better shape than the people were before Mohammad's time?

When will Islam have a "reformation" that insists that the Qur'anic prohibition against "compulsion in religion" really means what it says?

http://www.islamicthought.org/icit-books.html

2nd from bottom. I have that book. It lays down its arguments using Qur’ân, Hadith and the life of Muhammad. It points to judicial sources too. Apostasy results in death in Islâm. As horrific as that seems to other muslims who don’t want that to be true, it is.

Thanks for the good resources.

Response: Islam is not in need of reformation. Just because someone chooses to interpret islam in a negative way does not mean that islam is the cause. For there are those who beat their wives, abuse their children, etc. And when asked why, they say they do it out of love. Does that make love bad? No. Because that is not what love is. Similarly, one choosing to interpret islam in a,negative way does not make islam bad, because islam is not that way.