kingdombuilder wrote:
Murad wrote:kingdombuilder wrote:Murad wrote:...
My personal belief is that Jesus was 'Cruci-ficted', but he didn't die. Death on a cross is a disgraceful death, because according to the Deuteronomy 21:23:
...anyone who is hung on a tree is under God's curse....
This is true, however...
Galatians 3:13 says "Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law,
having become a curse for us (for it is written, 'cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree)..
So...? How does that rebuttal the fact that death on a cross is disgraceful?
Read Deut. 21:23 and Galatians 3:13
together. You do not see that this says Christ died, in your words: "disgracefully?"
Thats actually the Pauline position. From an unbiased perspective(which is the Jewish perspective), the death of Jesus Christ was a disgraceful & cursed death according to the Torah.
kingdombuilder wrote:
Murad wrote:
kingdombuilder wrote:
Murad wrote:For example, Jesus says in Luke 11:9-11:
"So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
"Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead?
Again, this is true, however...
keep reading because verse 13 says the following: "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father
give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!" Clearly the context here has nothing to do with Jesus or the Him on the cross but rather is about the Holy Spirit being given to anyone who asks for Him.
This is where Christians love to play verbal gymnastics.
I thought the holy spirit was one with the Father(in the Trinity) ?
The context does not change the fact that Jesus is referring to GOD(in whatever entity does not matter).
But notice the context is asking for the Holy Spirit and
note what it is not saying or asking for. This scripture can not be abused to mean that
what ever a person asks for they will recieve, this is not what this particular scripture you refered to means.
The Holy Spirit
aka God, can be
prayed to, like any other entity of the Trinity. Really, this is basic Christianity. So giving a rebuttal that praying to "The holy spirit" is different than praying to God in any other entity, is not honest on your behalf.
Also, its not a matter of "abusing" scripture, as according to the 4 canonical Gospels, Jesus only made
1 prayer not to die, and if this prayer was rejected, that screams
hypocrisy right in your face.
kingdombuilder wrote:
Murad wrote:
kingdombuilder wrote:
Murad wrote:While Jesus was on the cross:
"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."
(Luke 22:42)
Jesus was not on the cross when he said these words, He was in the garden of Gethsemane
before being arrested and tried. Also note carefully the last part of the verse you posted here: "
yet not my will, but yours be done."
So Jesus' prayer was rejected?
The only way one could come to this conclusion (that his prayer was rejected) is if they think this prayer is ultimately asking for God to spare His life. But is it? Read it again,
note that 2x Jesus is shown to be appealing to God's (the Father) will not his own will (Jesus'). Jesus is shown here to ultimately be praying for God's (the Father) will to be done and not that His life would be spared.
It seems like your whispering one part of the verse, and screaming the other part out, you have to read the whole verse & be honest with yourself.
Lets analyse Luke 22:42 in detail:
"Father, if you are willing,
Meaning: "God if you want to"
take this cup from me
Meaning: "Take death from me"
yet not my will, but yours be done."
Meaning: "Ultimately, your in control, not me, and your decision will be done."
If Jesus' prayer was rejected, that means Jesus was a
hypocrite for preaching Luke 11:9-11:
"So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
"Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead?
kingdombuilder wrote:
Murad wrote:
kingdombuilder wrote:
Murad wrote:If Jesus asked not to die, then his prayer was accepted according to Luke 11:9-11, and this would in effect fulfill his previous prophecy about Jonah:
No, this belief has been refuted two-fold: 1) Jesus prayer clearly stipulated a "yet" clause (see response immediately above). 2) Luke 11:9-
13 has clearly been shown to be about the Holy Spirit being given to anyone who asks, not about Jesus asking not to die.
1) If i say, "God forgive me, not my will but yours", and God doesn't forgive me, doesn't that still mean my prayer was rejected?
No, stop and think about what is ultimately being asked for here.
So is there a limit of what can be asked for in prayer?
Jesus asking God not to die, because he was crucified
wrongly, isn't much to ask in my opinion, simply because he was the one that was wronged, and all he wanted was justice(which is his life).
kingdombuilder wrote:
Murad wrote:2) The trinitarian belief is that all 3 entity's make God, and the Christian faith teaches that a christian can pray to the Father, Son or the Holy Spirit; no matter what entity they pray to, they would be praying to God. Right or Wrong?
Let me stipulate before responding to this particular comment that I am not a trained theological scholar and have not, as of yet, recieved any formal instruction on the doctrine of the Trinity, but do consider myself well read in Biblical and Christian theological literature as well as the Bible itself. With that said, I believe you are not quite precise in this description. It is
my understanding that The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit do not
"make" God (as if one happened to not be in existence then God Himself would not be in existence), but rather that all 3
are the same God in essence.
The 3 entity's make the Trinity, which is ultimately God. So, one
could say the 3 entity's make God, its just a wording difference.
kingdombuilder wrote:
With all that said, may I ask for clearification as to what this has to do with the immediate subject of wheather or not Jesus actually died?
Because you made the claim that the 'Holy Spirit' doesn't refer to God in Luke 11:13. The Trinity proves your claim wrong.
kingdombuilder wrote:
Murad wrote:
kingdombuilder wrote:
Murad wrote:He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
(Matthew 12:39)
What was the sign of Jonah? Wasn't it survival against all adversity?
You unknowingly are more right on this than you may believe...
read the very next verse for Jesus interpretes his own words for us: "For as Jonah was 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the great fish,
so will the Son of Man be 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth." As you yourself just states above, Jesus was saying that he would "survive" since after 3 days and nights he would be resurrected!
No, that is wishful thinking on your behalf, and i advise you to re-read the book of Jonah.
Jonah was
alive in the belly of the whale. And if Jesus made the same comparison, that means Jesus was also alive in the heart of the earth.
Did Jonah die & come back to life?
Or did it seem from the "outside" that Jonah was most likely dead, when infact he was alive all along.
Now what kept Jonah alive?
His prayer to God:
From inside the fish Jonah prayed to the Lord his God. He said:
“In my distress I called to the Lord, and he
answered me....
(Jonah 2:1)
Jesus also made a prayer to God(Luke 22:42), which kept him alive.
While this may be true of Jonah, Jesus in this scripture does not intend to make
a complete comparison of the account of Jonah and Himself, as He Himself limits what he means in the comparison when He says "as Jonah was
in the fish 3 days and nights so to will the Son of Man
be 3 days and nights in the earth."
You are proving my point my friend, i never claimed Jesus made a "Complete Comparison", i only quoted what Jesus said himself. I'll help analyse & evaluate for you.
1)
A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign!
(Matthew 12:39)
Here, the Jews asked for a sign, which angered Jesus.
2)
NONE will be given it EXCEPT the sign of the prophet Jonah
(Matthew 12:39)
Now, read this verse, very,
very carefully.
Jesus replied:
NONE WILL BE GIVEN, meaning no miracles will be given, absolutely
none, zilch, zero, nothing.
Then, he says:
EXCEPT, so basically he makes an exclusion, then refers to the sign of Prophet Jonah.
3)
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
(Matthew 12:40)
Basically,
the SAME way Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish. Jesus would be in the heart of the earth.
Evaluation of the points:
1) His reaction to the Jews asking for a miracle was negative.
2) Jesus blatantly
destroys the doctrine of "resurrection", simply because he said no miracles would be given. He further on says: "Except the sign of prophet Jonah", & the sign of prophet Jonah was survival against all odds,
with the prayer of God.
3) Basically, the same way Jonah escaped death for 3 days & 3 nights in the belly of the whale, so would Jesus in the belly of the earth.
kingdombuilder wrote:
Only a person with a theological ax to grind against Christianity and what the Bible actually teaches would come to the conclusion you have.
The conclusion is self-explanatory, im not doing any weird interpretation that Christians love to do(expecially when it comes down to the Trinity), furthermore im quoting Jesus' own words, so im sure you would give Jesus more authority over Paul.
kingdombuilder wrote:
Besides that, this interpretation completely misses the context of everything else around the verse. Luke 22:42 has been sufficently responded to above. Jesus did not ultimately pray a prayer to save His life. Besides that, He says elsewhere that He willing lays it down.
I disagree with you, and i think your belief is pre-conditioned with subjective opinion rather than accepting
unambiguous facts that were concluded from Matthew 12:39-40.
kingdombuilder wrote:
Murad wrote:
kingdombuilder wrote:
In short, your belief can not be substantiated with your reasons given above since they are all either out of context or point to an opposite conclusion than you have reached.
Just to make it clear, my belief is not based on the Bible in any way.
Perhaps not, but
your reasonings posted here come from there. How about sharing where your belief actually does come from (the Koran?) and why you believe it.
That would be off topic, but ill be happy to evaluate my belief very quickly & why i believe in it:
1) Jesus is not God, God does not exist in a Trinity, God(called 'Allah' in arabic) Exists as 1 perfect entity as in Judaism, but he may be reffered to with different names.
2) Jesus
was the Messiah, but he was rejected by his people
3) Salvation can only be attained by work, not by God comitting suicide on a cross or by faith alone.
4) Jesus will have a second comming.
5) Muhammad(pbuh) was the seal of the prophets.
And yes, my belief is derived from the Quran, and here are a few verses to emphasize my position:
We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil).
(Quran 5:46-47)
“In blasphemy indeed are those that say that God is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against God, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every – one that is on the earth? For to God belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For God hath power over all things.�[Qur'an 5:17]
And they say: "The Most Beneficent (Allah) has begotten a son (or offspring or children), and the pagan Arabs say that He has begotten daughters (angels, etc.)."
Indeed you have brought forth (said) a terrible evil thing.
Whereby the heavens are almost torn, and the earth is split asunder, and the mountains fall in ruins.
(Quran 19:88-90)
If you wish to ask questions, please post it in "Questions About a Belief" or "Questions for a Specific User", as i do not want to take this thread off topic.