Rational and civil debate between members of all religions and world views
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McCulloch
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 Posted: Sun May 29, 2005 5:58 pm Post subject: Are polygamy and pedophilia biblically wrong? |
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The reason that I bring this up is that christians and other religionists use the thin edge of the wedge argument against recognition of same sex marriage. Their argument usually goes something like this, "If we recognize same sex marriage then we will eventually have to allow polygamy and pedophilia." Saving the logical flaws of the thin edge of the wedge argument for another thread, there is an implication that christians believe that polygamy and pedophilia are worse sins than homosexuality.
As a humanist I agree with them on the point about pedophilia. Homosexual relations between consenting adults is a choice which cannot adversly affect anyone else. Pedophila is a crime. Sexual relationships should only be between consenting adults. Children are not capable of giving consent.
As a humanist I am more ambivalent about polygamy (and polyandry) but as a pragmatist, I don't believe that our society is ready for the legal quandary that multi marriages could pose.
What does the Bible say? Polygamy is taught by example and is never explicitly forbidden. So, is Polygamy right or wrong from the biblical point of view? Can one be as absolute about the answer as bible believers are about homosexuality, which is explicitly condemned in the bible? Pedophilia does not appear to be addressed directly in the bible. Now I know that sex with our own children is explicitly condemned in the bible. Sex with someone who is not your spouse is explicitly condemned in the bible. And sex with someone who is of the same sex as you are is explicitly condemned in the bible. But does the bible explicitly condemn marriage to a child? I think that we all agree that it should. But does it? Is there any validity to the position of opposing the recognition of same-sex marriages based on one's opposition to pedophilia? Do christians believe that the crime of pedophilia is as bad, worse or not as bad as the sin of homosexuality? Is there any biblical basis for that belief?
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Prakk Newbie
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Post 21:
Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:54 pm Post subject: Yup, it does. |
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| micatala wrote: | | "Paul says that on overseer (leader) must not by polygamous. Clearly, the implication is that other believers could be polygamous and this would be OK, as long as they do not want to be in church leadership. It also seems to me that if polygamy was not a fairly common practice at that time, Paul would not have addressed it." |
Correct, or why limit the monogamy provision to one class of people? It would have been far simpler to say "no one among you should take more than one wife". He could have then gone on to make exceptions saying that those who had should or should not put away one or some of them, and those that were polygynous or had been were ineligible for office of Elder. Instead this passage virtually SCREAMS that Polygyny was extant in the early church. The fact that Justin Martyr is still trying to stamp out the practice 100 years later is further proof.
Hugh McBryde |
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"Every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar." |
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| lacy16 Newbie Joined: 28 Aug 2006 Total posts: 4 Gender: Undisclosed
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Post 22:
Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:52 am Post subject: Pedophilia and Polygamy |
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I think that it's obvious from the many educated post on this topic that Biblically and even socially (when practiced without moral retardants) is very acceptable. The only negatives to pedophilia and polygamy is the damage done by nosey and intrusive observers that then try and make those engaged in these acts feel guilty or victimized. The crime is making two people that have conscentual feeling for each other feel ashamed when they in reality have done nothing wrong. The laws of the land as made by self proposed morally superior politicians and religious leaders are what do the real damage to the joys of marriage and the pleasure of sex regardless of age by incorrectly making what is very right seem condemned.
I do not know any friends of mine where polygamy has been and issue but as for incest, I do have a personal reference to speak from. I have known three friends that I found out have had incestuous relationships. In all three cases I knew the supposed underage participant and they we well functioning bright people. In one the mother had the father arrested, the family was split, the mother laid guilt on my friend and the looks she got from others changed. Then her grades dropped and she became more withdrawn. It was not the act of incest that caused the problem as she told me that she loved her father, it was the outside social implications, ostrisizng, legal hassels, and guilt society dumped on her. Noone care about what she said because they said she was underage.
The second ended in a divorce only but even in that my friend lost her father and brother until she is at least 18. Again her grades fell after it all came out because of all the drama that followed. Again the mother only listened to enough of what she had to say to keep from having the dad and brother arrested.
The third I did not know about until just recently she is in college and doing very well. I just found out that her father and her have had a sexual relationship since she was very young and she shows no signs of emotional scarring, depression, or any functionable negative effects and I beleive its because the peer and political pressures never became came down on them. |
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Goat Site SupporterSavant
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Post 23:
Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: Pedophilia and Polygamy |
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| lacy16 wrote: | I think that it's obvious from the many educated post on this topic that Biblically and even socially (when practiced without moral retardants) is very acceptable. The only negatives to pedophilia and polygamy is the damage done by nosey and intrusive observers that then try and make those engaged in these acts feel guilty or victimized. The crime is making two people that have conscentual feeling for each other feel ashamed when they in reality have done nothing wrong. The laws of the land as made by self proposed morally superior politicians and religious leaders are what do the real damage to the joys of marriage and the pleasure of sex regardless of age by incorrectly making what is very right seem condemned.
I do not know any friends of mine where polygamy has been and issue but as for incest, I do have a personal reference to speak from. I have known three friends that I found out have had incestuous relationships. In all three cases I knew the supposed underage participant and they we well functioning bright people. In one the mother had the father arrested, the family was split, the mother laid guilt on my friend and the looks she got from others changed. Then her grades dropped and she became more withdrawn. It was not the act of incest that caused the problem as she told me that she loved her father, it was the outside social implications, ostrisizng, legal hassels, and guilt society dumped on her. Noone care about what she said because they said she was underage.
The second ended in a divorce only but even in that my friend lost her father and brother until she is at least 18. Again her grades fell after it all came out because of all the drama that followed. Again the mother only listened to enough of what she had to say to keep from having the dad and brother arrested.
The third I did not know about until just recently she is in college and doing very well. I just found out that her father and her have had a sexual relationship since she was very young and she shows no signs of emotional scarring, depression, or any functional negative effects and I believe its because the peer and political pressures never became came down on them. |
I know of several cases also. However, in the cases I know of, there are some deep scars that were inflicted. One case, the father did go to prison due to the young woman exposure of it (she was afraid he would start molesting her youngest sister), but she had all the signs of being very disturbed before that.
Another one is diagnosed with a psychological disorder, and is going to a therapist. They have improved drastically under the therapist's care, but I don't think their
disorder will ever go away totally.
The third committed suicide. She was very bright, talented and intelligent, who just so happened to refuse to actually speak. She also had bouts of depression, which I believe to be directly caused by the situation with her father.
Of course, there could be others from people I know that aren't so wounded. It is the wounded that are noticeable. However, from that sample, I don't think that the 'only negatives' to pedophilia is the damage done by intrusive others. The cases I know are too dramatic in the damage they caused. |
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| lacy16 Newbie Joined: 28 Aug 2006 Total posts: 4 Gender: Undisclosed
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Post 24:
Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:31 am Post subject: |
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Goat,
I totally understand where you are coming from. I think that you may be blaming incest for the problem when that wasn't really the cause. The cause for your friends situation sounds like it was because they were coerest or forced, basically raped. Forced sex is never acceptable (except between a man and wife according to the bible). What I was talking about was incest, the act of sex between two family members. You are talking about a rape that happened to be between two family members. They are not the same thing. A rape can diffinetely leave many emotional scars that can take a long time to recover from. The difference is, me giving you a present verses you breaking into my house and stealing it. The exchange is not wrong its how its done that can pose the problem! Please don't make a blanket statement on the act, it feeds the biblically and morally ignorant mindset that this country is trying to get rid of. |
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GoatSite SupporterSavant
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Post 25:
Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:52 am Post subject: |
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| lacy16 wrote: | Goat,
I totally understand where you are coming from. I think that you may be blaming incest for the problem when that wasn't really the cause. The cause for your friends situation sounds like it was because they were coerest or forced, basically raped. Forced sex is never acceptable (except between a man and wife according to the bible). What I was talking about was incest, the act of sex between two family members. You are talking about a rape that happened to be between two family members. They are not the same thing. A rape can diffinetely leave many emotional scars that can take a long time to recover from. The difference is, me giving you a present verses you breaking into my house and stealing it. The exchange is not wrong its how its done that can pose the problem! Please don't make a blanket statement on the act, it feeds the biblically and morally ignorant mindset that this country is trying to get rid of. |
When it comes to a child, even if it is non-violent, it is rape. A child does not have the experiance to be able to make an informed decision and say NO. A child is easily manipulated , because they want to please adults. This is still abuse, and it still can cause emotional and physical damage.
Once someone hits puberty, technically it is not being a pedaphile. It is actually being an 'ebophile'. While IMO this is still wrong due to the manipulation of someone not fully responsible yet by an adult. It might not be considered a psychological disorder, but it still is abusive in my opinion.
This behavior might not be 'bibilically' wrong, but just because the bible doesn't mention it doesn't mean it is NOT wrong. Even if done in an apparently 'loving' way, this has caused much damage to the victims. |
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| lacy16 Newbie Joined: 28 Aug 2006 Total posts: 4 Gender: Undisclosed
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Post 26:
Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:14 am Post subject: |
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Goat,
I think that now we have left the realm of this discussion which is "is polygamy and pedophilia biblically wrong" and from the many educated opinions based off of stated undisputable facts it is plainly obvious that biblically, anyone that practices polygamy or pedophilia in a loving manner as mentioned in the bible is still blessed by God.
It does sound as if due to the lack of any credible facts to the contrary that you have fallen back to the trusty "Oh yeah! Well I don't like it anyway!" defense. |
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Post 27:
Fri Jan 19, 2007 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| lacy16 wrote: | Goat,
I think that now we have left the realm of this discussion which is "is polygamy and pedophilia biblically wrong" and from the many educated opinions based off of stated undisputable facts it is plainly obvious that biblically, anyone that practices polygamy or pedophilia in a loving manner as mentioned in the bible is still blessed by God.
It does sound as if due to the lack of any credible facts to the contrary that you have fallen back to the trusty "Oh yeah! Well I don't like it anyway!" defense. |
No, it isn't. The thing is, just because something is not mentioned in the bible doesn't mean that it is right or wrong. It just means it was not mentioend in the bible.
If you want to talk about a 'loving' relationship, pedaphile is not loving. It is controling and abusive. The people I know that were manipulated into that situtation is evidence enought to me the damage it can cause.
That isn't blessed by God. That is the self justification of someone who wants to break the law, and risk injury to a youth.
It doesn't matter if is it 'blessed' by God or not in your eyes. It STILL is against the law. It still is abusive. |
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McCullochSite SupporterSavant
Joined: 02 May 2005 Total posts: 15524 Location: Toronto, ON, CA Age: 50 Gender: Male
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Post 28:
Fri Jan 19, 2007 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| goat wrote: | If you want to talk about a 'loving' relationship, pedophilia is not loving. It is controlling and abusive. The people I know that were manipulated into that situation is evidence enough to me the damage it can cause.
That isn't blessed by God. That is the self justification of someone who wants to break the law, and risk injury to a youth.
It doesn't matter if is it 'blessed' by God or not in your eyes. It STILL is against the law. It still is abusive. |
But is it ruled out by Biblical morality? You claim that God is against it, why? |
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Post 29:
Fri Jan 19, 2007 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| McCulloch wrote: | | goat wrote: | If you want to talk about a 'loving' relationship, pedophilia is not loving. It is controlling and abusive. The people I know that were manipulated into that situation is evidence enough to me the damage it can cause.
That isn't blessed by God. That is the self justification of someone who wants to break the law, and risk injury to a youth.
It doesn't matter if is it 'blessed' by God or not in your eyes. It STILL is against the law. It still is abusive. |
But is it ruled out by Biblical morality? You claim that God is against it, why? |
The sin of Sodom is the cruelty towards others. They were cruel and greedy, and for this, they were condemned. IMO, this would qualify as being cruel to others. |
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Post 30:
Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Corvus wrote: | | I would argue that unless the sexual act resulted in some sort of harm being done to the child, psychologically or physically, there is nothing wrong with it. |
Unacceptable. Harm sometimes is obvious. Sometimes less so. But what does not kill me makes me stronger does not apply to children I think. Neither does the morality of an action always have to be a matter of the consequences of that particular action.
I may get stinking drunk. Take drugs till I'm dribbling. Then take a 9 year old illegal street motor racing. And not crash! And cause that child no lasting harm. Still unacceptable behavior.
If I also get a kick out of frightening her, or having dominance over, whilst I do it. Then worse still. Wrong Wrong Wrong.
Any written system of thought that makes claims to have an ultimate say over morality, yet neglects an issue like sex with children, is not an ultimate moral authority. |
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