The Conspiracy Argument

[ConiectoErgoSum]

Let's for a moment assume that modern science and ancient religion are at odds. That they are in fact mutually exclusive. This seems to be a mentality that leads to one of the following arguments:

Creationist:
God's word is specific and perfect.
The bible is God's explicit word.
The bible says that God created all things in a week.
Modern science says that the universe took billions of years to develop.
The two are irreconcilable.
Modern science is wrong.
This argument ends up essentially concluding the following about science:
Modern science is a conspiracy. Modern science is a set of rumors, or memes, initiated by scientists and perpetrated by the gullible. Its medium consists of indoctrination through schools, universities, the media, and word of mouth. It survives because it builds credibility through truths readily observable by everyone - basic physics, the survival instinct, fossil records, animal behavior, etc - and then adds lies that are only observable by "the experts".

Scientist:
The bible, if God's word, if true, would be specific and perfect.
The bible says that God created all things in a week.
Modern science says that the universe took billions of years to develop.
The two are irreconcilable.
The bible is wrong.
This argument ends up essentially concluding the following about Judeo-Christian religion (henceforth referred to as "religion"):
Reliigon is a conspiracy. Religion is a set of rumors, or memes, initiated by ancient politicians/writers and perpetrated by the gullible. Its medium consists of indoctrination through churches, families, the media, and word of mouth. It survives because it builds credibility through truths readily observable by everyone - the often evil nature of humans, the desire to never die, the wisdom of loving your neighbor as yourself - and then adds lies that are only observable by "the priests".


Now I'm sure everyone who thinks this argument is black and white is gonna hate me for reducing it so. I'll just go ahead and admit I didn't get all the details of either argument right. I'm probably way off base. But MY conclusion, is that anyone who believes "Science vs Religion" to be an "either or" - that the two are irreconcilably, mutually exclusive - MUST arrive at the conclusion that there's a conspiracy out there somewhere.

My question is this: How can you say that the evidence you have is not just part of the massive conspiracy? How do you justify believing one conspiracy theory over another?

[Adamoriens]

I do think your dilemma is (surprise!) rather black and white. It seems to me that modern scientists by and large don't give a rip about the proper interpretation of Genesis, but I'll take your scientist character as an archetype of the aggressive atheistic anti-creationist. For one, neither view-point strictly entails conspiracy. If Mr. Creationist is correct that the Bible is infallibly true and modern science wrong, then it follows that modern science is mistaken. Conspiracy would be one explanation, but there are also others, including mistaken foundational assumptions, faulty evidence, faulty interpretation etc. So it's possible that scientists could be massively mistaken and not culpable for more than negligence (if that).

From an anti-creationist's position, religion may be a willful conspiracy, or simply sadly mistaken. Most anti-creationists I've read believe that Genesis is merely a product of the ancient near east culture, and not the result of malicious intent. No conspiracy necessary here.

My second point would be that the debate on Genesis' veracity should not be confused with the science vs. religion issue, which is a much broader concern.

[nygreenguy]

A conspiracy would imply someone knows the truth and that they are covering it up. While this may be the case, I dont think it is realistic. I think it would require a LOT of people to know the "truth" and it would escape. I think its more likely that everyone actually believes what they claim to believe.

Now, when it comes to biology and evolution (and old earth issues) they all make predictions which have practical applications. If evolution was wrong, there would be SO many things that wouldnt work like they do and we would know it.

For creationism, there is no such thing. There are no predictions or applications of creationism.

[Elias Jezebelsbane]

...

IMO there are a lot of assumptions made on both sides.

For geologists for example, they generally assume uniformitarianism which basically teaches that events take place over extended periods of time and don't allow for catastrophism which allows layers to be laid down rapidly.

On the side of creationism, the animal life that exists now was all created by God so therefore the dinosaurs were also created by God. They don't account for things like the fallen angels modifying life to create new species.

Yes, I believe there is a massive conspiracy behind scientific theories but I also see the same type of problems within the religious communities. What most don't understand is that the enemy realm is behind the conspiracy to disprove or discredit the biblical accounts.

Generating false evidence is within the feasibility of the enemy realm. Leading the scientific community to that planted false evidence is also feasible.

Here is another good example of an assumption. People ASSUME that fossils found in the shape of bones were originally from an actual living animal yet the demonic realm is fully capable of generating mineral formations that appear to be in the shape of bones then leading scientists to find the planted false evidence. Few would even consider that the fossil record could be an elaborate hoax on mankind.

I am a creationist but hold a degree in a field of science. We can never KNOW all the facts for things that happened in the distant past. Science just makes educated guesses that fit our pool of evidence with the assumption that all the evidences is accurate while discounting even the possibility of a hoax being put over on all of mankind by spiritual forces they don't even believe in.

[sarabellum]

...

IMO there are a lot of assumptions made on both sides.

For geologists for example, they generally assume uniformitarianism which basically teaches that events take place over extended periods of time and don't allow for catastrophism which allows layers to be laid down rapidly.

On the side of creationism, the animal life that exists now was all created by God so therefore the dinosaurs were also created by God. They don't account for things like the fallen angels modifying life to create new species.

Yes, I believe there is a massive conspiracy behind scientific theories but I also see the same type of problems within the religious communities. What most don't understand is that the enemy realm is behind the conspiracy to disprove or discredit the biblical accounts.

Generating false evidence is within the feasibility of the enemy realm. Leading the scientific community to that planted false evidence is also feasible.

Here is another good example of an assumption. People ASSUME that fossils found in the shape of bones were originally from an actual living animal yet the demonic realm is fully capable of generating mineral formations that appear to be in the shape of bones then leading scientists to find the planted false evidence. Few would even consider that the fossil record could be an elaborate hoax on mankind.

I am a creationist but hold a degree in a field of science. We can never KNOW all the facts for things that happened in the distant past. Science just makes educated guesses that fit our pool of evidence with the assumption that all the evidences is accurate while discounting even the possibility of a hoax being put over on all of mankind by spiritual forces they don't even believe in.

If I allow for the possibility of God and a demonic realm then it is as you say above...
We live in the Matrix...
Everything is suspect?

Edited uno time..

[Clownboat]

...

IMO there are a lot of assumptions made on both sides.

For geologists for example, they generally assume uniformitarianism which basically teaches that events take place over extended periods of time and don't allow for catastrophism which allows layers to be laid down rapidly.

On the side of creationism, the animal life that exists now was all created by God so therefore the dinosaurs were also created by God. They don't account for things like the fallen angels modifying life to create new species.

Yes, I believe there is a massive conspiracy behind scientific theories but I also see the same type of problems within the religious communities. What most don't understand is that the enemy realm is behind the conspiracy to disprove or discredit the biblical accounts.

Generating false evidence is within the feasibility of the enemy realm. Leading the scientific community to that planted false evidence is also feasible.

Here is another good example of an assumption. People ASSUME that fossils found in the shape of bones were originally from an actual living animal yet the demonic realm is fully capable of generating mineral formations that appear to be in the shape of bones then leading scientists to find the planted false evidence. Few would even consider that the fossil record could be an elaborate hoax on mankind.

I am a creationist but hold a degree in a field of science. We can never KNOW all the facts for things that happened in the distant past. Science just makes educated guesses that fit our pool of evidence with the assumption that all the evidences is accurate while discounting even the possibility of a hoax being put over on all of mankind by spiritual forces they don't even believe in.

You really think that scientist know the truth, but would rather cover it up so they can promote a theory that they know is wrong, and they do this just because? Are they being controlled by demons do you think?

Your demonic realm theory sounds more like a conspiracy to suggest science is false if you ask me. I believe you know deep down that there is truth to science, especially since you are using a PC and you go to the doctor when sick....

[Shermana]

"You really think that scientist know the truth, but would rather cover it up so they can promote a theory that they know is wrong, and they do this just because? Are they being controlled by demons do you think? "

The food industry alone is the big teller. I won't get into the Pharmeceutical for now.

You really think Cancer is that hard to figure out? Do you really think the Cancer industry is working round the clock with its BILLIONS to discover the cure?

That's just one example.

How long did it take for the Transfat industry to fess up? Awhile? How about Aspartame?

[nygreenguy]

"

The food industry alone is the big teller.

How so?

I won't get into the Pharmeceutical for now.

Why not?

You really think Cancer is that hard to figure out?

Have you figured it out?

Do you really think the Cancer industry is working round the clock with its BILLIONS to discover the cure?

Seeing as how I know some people who research it, yes.

How long did it take for the Transfat industry to fess up?

They have an industry? What would they fess up for?

How about Aspartame?

what about it?

what does any of this have to do with the topic and science?

[Shermana]

Oh I see, you know people who are in the Cancer research industry, and that proves they are all honestly working with every dollar to find the cure! Thanks for clearing that up!

If you ask "what about aspartame" and deny the fact that it has an industry, wow!!

[nygreenguy]

Oh I see, you know people who are in the Cancer research industry, and that proves they are all honestly working with every dollar to find the cure! Thanks for clearing that up!

Well then, since you clearly have some privileged information, please show us how they are not working to find a cure?

If you ask "what about aspartame" and deny the fact that it has an industry, wow!!

Actually, the "industry" question was at transfats.....

And what about aspartame? If you are going to make wild claims, you have to back them up.