Is there ANY empirical extra-Biblical evidence for....

[notachance]

Is there ANY empirical extra-Biblical evidence for supernatural claims in the Bible?

For example: Is there a study out there that shows that Christians get his by lightning less frequently than non-Christians in that same region? Is there a study that shows that those who pray to Jesus survive cancer more frequently than those who pray to Allah (given equal access to healthcare)? Has anybody who had an out-of body experience and "flew to a different room" ever been able to tell what the people in that other room were saying, and was that testimony corroborated?

Does the truth of the Biblical supernatural claims manifest themselves in ANY measurable observable way? Or is it limited exclusively to manifesting itself inside the edited copy of the edited copy of the edited copy of the edited copy of the edited copy of scribbles anonymous bronze and iron age barbarians wrote on sheep skin after having heard stories from people who heard stories from people who heard stories from people who saw stuff that was allegedly supernatural, at a time in history when a solar eclipse, an earthquake and a flood were considered supernatural?

If somebody said "You're extraordinarily naive for believing that donkeys can talk"

Would your response be something like this

It's not naive to believe in the talking donkey tale, because it's not just the copy of the copy of the copy etc of a story a bronze age barbarian once told, but there is this empirical evidence to back up the belief in talking donkeys:

Empirical evidence 1:______________________

Empirical evidence 2: ______________________

Empirical evidence 3: ______________________

Or would it be something like this

"I don't understand how the universe came into existence, therefore I believe that a super powerful entity caused it to come into existence. This entity (that I have no evidence for) has enormous powers (that I have no evidence for), and he can use these powers to cause a donkey to talk, therefore while it's physically impossible for a donkey to talk, it's not physically impossible for a donkey to talk. Consider how unlikely it is that of all the trillions of types of molecules a fart could contain, it contains methane. If God can cause methane to be inside a fart, then surely he can cause a donkey to talk!"

[JoeyKnothead]

From the OP:

Is there a study that shows that those who pray to Jesus survive cancer more frequently than those who pray to Allah (given equal access to healthcare)?

Interestingly enough...

...
Over the next month, the two groups that were uncertain whether they were the subject of prayers fared virtually the same, with about 52 percent of patients experiencing complications regardless of whether they were the subject of prayers.

Surprisingly, 59 percent of the patients who knew they were being prayed for experienced complications.

Because the most common complication was an irregular heartbeat, researchers speculated that knowing they were chosen to receive prayers may have inadvertently put the patients under increased stress.
...

If I go to having heart trouble, whatever you do, DON'T PRAY!

[notachance]

From the OP:

Is there a study that shows that those who pray to Jesus survive cancer more frequently than those who pray to Allah (given equal access to healthcare)?

Interestingly enough...

...
Over the next month, the two groups that were uncertain whether they were the subject of prayers fared virtually the same, with about 52 percent of patients experiencing complications regardless of whether they were the subject of prayers.

Surprisingly, 59 percent of the patients who knew they were being prayed for experienced complications.

Because the most common complication was an irregular heartbeat, researchers speculated that knowing they were chosen to receive prayers may have inadvertently put the patients under increased stress.
...

If I go to having heart trouble, whatever you do, DON'T PRAY!

Ah ah! Beautiful. I have a feeling that I will not be getting much in the way of responses from theists on this thread.

Thanks for sharing that study. Fascinating stuff!

[I AM ALL I AM]

From the OP:

Is there a study that shows that those who pray to Jesus survive cancer more frequently than those who pray to Allah (given equal access to healthcare)?

Interestingly enough...

...
Over the next month, the two groups that were uncertain whether they were the subject of prayers fared virtually the same, with about 52 percent of patients experiencing complications regardless of whether they were the subject of prayers.

Surprisingly, 59 percent of the patients who knew they were being prayed for experienced complications.

Because the most common complication was an irregular heartbeat, researchers speculated that knowing they were chosen to receive prayers may have inadvertently put the patients under increased stress.
...

If I go to having heart trouble, whatever you do, DON'T PRAY!

One Answer To Cancer
http://www.megavideo.com/?d=C39P1TLX

RUN FROM THE CURE - The Rick Simpson Story


G'day JoeyKnothead.

There ARE individuals that have been healed from cancer, though they most definitely didn't 'pray to Jesus' to do so. The above links are two ways that the cures were actualised, neither one used the 'praying to Jesus' method at all.

There are also other methods that do not involve 'praying to Jesus' that have been documented to work.

P.S. - I'm almost certain which one you would choose to utilise if it was ever necessary.

[JehovahsWitness]

Is there ANY empirical extra-Biblical evidence for supernatural claims in the Bible?

No why would anyone reasonably expect there to be? Indeed what empiracle evidence COULD there be of a supernatural event other than individuals explaining what they saw or experienced (the gospels)*.

By DEFINITION a "supernatural" event is something that cannot be explained by physical law therefore if empirical denotes information gained by means of [...] experiments, the request is essentially saying "prove with science something that cannot be proved with science". This is like saying "show me something that is invisible" if it could be shown it wouldn't BE invisible. Obviously.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence?

• While this may well be requested, the request is not necessarily a reasonable one. To illustrate: If my cat talked to me it would be an "extraordinary event". What extraordinary evidence would I produce other then to recount what had happened

.
By definition "supernatural" or "miraculous" events not only defy all known natural laws but are as a consequence unique events that can neither be reproduced, repeated or tested. In view of this the only thing subsequent generations can do is judge the reliability of the framework of the events (dates, times, locations) and attempt to asses the reliability (sincerity and indeed sanity) of those that claimed to be witnesses*. The only "extraordinary" thing therefore would be the extraordinarily lengths to which sane witnesses are to go to in defence of their testimony and the extraordinarily high price they are willing to pay to do so.


*empirical denotes information gained by means of observation or experiments

[notachance]

Is there ANY empirical extra-Biblical evidence for supernatural claims in the Bible?

No why would anyone reasonably expect there to be? Indeed what empiracle evidence COULD there be of a supernatural event other than individuals explaining what they saw or experienced (the gospels)*.

Videos, photographs, corroboration by independent witnesses, inexplicable objects created as a result of the supernatural event, measurable and inexplicable changes in the physical properties in the area where the miracle took place, etc.

For example, if an amputee's arm grew back, even though it's medically impossible, then the entire world would be able to see, observe, measure, run tests, on his regrown arm.

Your premise that because a supernatural event is inexplicable, therefore it cannot be scientifically recorded, observed and studied, is ABSURD.

By DEFINITION a "supernatural" event is something that cannot be explained by physical law

Yes, that cannot be EXPLAINED. But it can be OBSERVED. If somebody were able to turn water into wine, science might not be able to explain it, but you can take the wine to a lab and test it for alcohol content, examine it under the microscope, etc. You can establish that it indeed is wine, irrespective of your inability to determine or replicate the process by which it became wine.

therefore if empirical denotes information gained by means of [...] experiments, the request is essentially saying "prove with science something that cannot be proved with science". This is like saying "show me something that is invisible" if it could be shown it wouldn't BE invisible. Obviously.

Wrong. You could spray with water the room in which this invisible entity was standing, and then with flour. The flour would stick to the invisible guy and you'd be able to observe him.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence?

• While this may well be requested, the request is not necessarily a reasonable one. To illustrate: If my cat talked to me it would be an "extraordinary event". What extraordinary evidence would I produce other then to recount what had happened

.

You could videotape it.

By definition "supernatural" or "miraculous" events not only defy all known natural laws but are as a consequence unique events that can neither be reproduced, repeated or tested.

Possible. But they can be observed and recorded. If somebody could raise the dead, one could compare the video of his autopsy being carried out, with a later video of him being alive. Stop building a strawman.

In view of this the only thing subsequent generations can do is judge the reliability of the framework of the events (dates, times, locations) and attempt to asses the reliability (sincerity and indeed sanity) of those that claimed to be witnesses*.

There are no witnesses to Biblical events. THe Bible you read today was written 300 years after the events, based on copies of copies of copies of copies of documents based on hearsay based on hearsay based on hearsay.

The only "extraordinary" thing therefore would be the extraordinarily lengths to which sane witnesses are to go to in defence of their testimony and the extraordinarily high price they are willing to pay to do so.

People are willing to die for all sorts of wacky reasons, and to die in the name of wacky delusional beliefs that give meaning to an otherwise hollow life seems a relatively common proposition.

*empirical denotes information gained by means of observation or experiments

Correct. You can observe a miracle and record it. Yet somehow nobody ever has.


Here is my point, JW:

You kept saying that there are prophecies in the Bible and all sorts of other EVIDENCE for the supernatural in the Bible.

Now you are just trying to change your tune because you've been cornered.

If I hadn't pressured you into backing up your CONTINUOUS claims of evidence for the supernatural, you would have NEVER written the evasive post above.

When nobody was truly taking you up on your claims that prophecies exist, etc, you kept making those baseless claims. Now that you realized that I'd keep pressuring you to back up your claims and that you couldn't get away with it, you're trying to backpedal from your earlier claims of empirical evidence for the miracles, and failing to do so.

Your premise that just because a miracle is inexplicable by definition therefore it cannot be observed, is patently false.

IT IS POSSIBLE TO OBSERVE AND RECORD AN INEXPLICABLE EVENT.

The record of such an event would constitute empirical evidence for it.

For Bible claims, such record does not exist. All you have is NON-empirical, anecdotal evidence in the form of 5th or 6th generation hearsay.

It's over buddy.

[Shermana]

From the OP:

Is there a study that shows that those who pray to Jesus survive cancer more frequently than those who pray to Allah (given equal access to healthcare)?

Interestingly enough...

...
Over the next month, the two groups that were uncertain whether they were the subject of prayers fared virtually the same, with about 52 percent of patients experiencing complications regardless of whether they were the subject of prayers.

Surprisingly, 59 percent of the patients who knew they were being prayed for experienced complications.

Because the most common complication was an irregular heartbeat, researchers speculated that knowing they were chosen to receive prayers may have inadvertently put the patients under increased stress.
...

If I go to having heart trouble, whatever you do, DON'T PRAY!

Has the same study been done in Israel between Orthodox Jews and Secular ones? Or is this just "whoever prayed for whomever"? I know that often the worst of people have people who pray for them. There are people who pray for Hitler's soul, the prayer of the righteous is what matters Biblically, and it is not guaranteed for everyone to force "God" to do as they Want Him to just because they prayed.

If anything this experiment may prove my notion that this whole "Paul did away with the Law" thing that I contend has corrupted Theism for the last 1900 years has in fact caused a misunderstanding of how prayer works. Those who believe the "Old Testament is fulfilled" as in done away with are depriving themselves of the Old Testament instructions on how to get their prayers answers (obediently and heartfully follow the Commandments, which is in itself a completely falsifiable experiment...). This proves my theory that "Christians" are more likely to NOT have their prayers answered due to their law-breaking and thus should not be good representives of the older Biblical view of prayer.

I know personal anecdotes aren't evidence, and maybe one can attribute it to lack of belief in luck, but besides my personal extreme life-saving twists of fate of driving a car or almost falling off a mountain experiences, one can say that I have a really strong immunity and I prayed a bad flu away in two days. Other times when I had not been so well behaved and such as performing with a band (earning money) on Sabbath, my flu struck me again and took much longer. One could say the first flu was weak (it was bad) and the second flu was stronger, in my personal view, I believe had I respected Sabbath, I would not have been so sick.

Likewise, we have no idea what any of these people being prayed for have done. Did bad things for their money? "Oh let him not have complications!" Doesn't work in the Biblical model.

I'd like to see the variables in that experiment. The problem is that people think prayer will always work no matter who you are, whether you claim to believe it or not. This is incredibly unbiblical. The bible says that the prayers of the unrepentant wicked (even those who are not "fools who say there's no God" but wicked believers) are not only in vain but loathsome to the Lord, though he accepts their repentance. How do we know they repented? Did they not repent because of their belief that Jesus forgives them and they need not obey any commandment or teaching because it's all covered on the cross? Is this a Jewish idea? Is this a post-Orthodox Christian idea? Should they represent the numerical link between prayer and its effect? If so, in the Biblical context?

I say test Jewish-born Messianic Jews, Orthodox Jews, Reform Jews (or Conservative, the mid-level) Secular Jews, and compare to Gentile Messianic converts, general Protestants, megachurch attenders, Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindus, and take a survey of their general behavior (this of course would not neceessarily reveal who has murdered and committed adultery and such though). I propose as my hypothesis that the Jewish born Messianic Jews will have the highest "Providential Aid" rate, followed by Orthodox Jews, then by Messianic Jewish converts. Completely falsifiable, if anyone can get the state of Israel (Or USA for a counter-sample) to get me a grant to research this, let me know, I think it could be of great profit.

I'd even take this a moment to say that I believe most "Christians" are MORE likely to suffer bad health, if they erroneously believe that they are not under the Law.

[notachance]

From the OP:

Is there a study that shows that those who pray to Jesus survive cancer more frequently than those who pray to Allah (given equal access to healthcare)?

Interestingly enough...

...
Over the next month, the two groups that were uncertain whether they were the subject of prayers fared virtually the same, with about 52 percent of patients experiencing complications regardless of whether they were the subject of prayers.

Surprisingly, 59 percent of the patients who knew they were being prayed for experienced complications.

Because the most common complication was an irregular heartbeat, researchers speculated that knowing they were chosen to receive prayers may have inadvertently put the patients under increased stress.
...

If I go to having heart trouble, whatever you do, DON'T PRAY!

Has the same study been done in Israel between Orthodox Jews and Secular ones? Or is this just "whoever prayed for whomever"? I know that often the worst of people have people who pray for them. There are people who pray for Hitler's soul, the prayer of the righteous is what matters Biblically, and it is not guaranteed for everyone to force "God" to do as they Want Him to just because they prayed.

If anything this experiment may prove my notion that this whole "Paul did away with the Law" thing that I contend has corrupted Theism for the last 1900 years has in fact caused a misunderstanding of how prayer works. Those who believe the "Old Testament is fulfilled" as in done away with are depriving themselves of the Old Testament instructions on how to get their prayers answers (obediently and heartfully follow the Commandments, which is in itself a completely falsifiable experiment...). This proves my theory that "Christians" are more likely to NOT have their prayers answered due to their law-breaking and thus should not be good representives of the older Biblical view of prayer.

I know personal anecdotes aren't evidence, and maybe one can attribute it to lack of belief in luck, but besides my personal extreme life-saving twists of fate of driving a car or almost falling off a mountain experiences, one can say that I have a really strong immunity and I prayed a bad flu away in two days. Other times when I had not been so well behaved and such as performing with a band (earning money) on Sabbath, my flu struck me again and took much longer. One could say the first flu was weak (it was bad) and the second flu was stronger, in my personal view, I believe had I respected Sabbath, I would not have been so sick.

Likewise, we have no idea what any of these people being prayed for have done. Did bad things for their money? "Oh let him not have complications!" Doesn't work in the Biblical model.

I'd like to see the variables in that experiment. The problem is that people think prayer will always work no matter who you are, whether you claim to believe it or not. This is incredibly unbiblical. The bible says that the prayers of the unrepentant wicked (even those who are not "fools who say there's no God" but wicked believers) are not only in vain but loathsome to the Lord, though he accepts their repentance. How do we know they repented? Did they not repent because of their belief that Jesus forgives them and they need not obey any commandment or teaching because it's all covered on the cross? Is this a Jewish idea? Is this a post-Orthodox Christian idea? Should they represent the numerical link between prayer and its effect? If so, in the Biblical context?

I say test Jewish-born Messianic Jews, Orthodox Jews, Reform Jews (or Conservative, the mid-level) Secular Jews, and compare to Gentile Messianic converts, general Protestants, megachurch attenders, Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindus, and take a survey of their general behavior (this of course would not neceessarily reveal who has murdered and committed adultery and such though). I propose as my hypothesis that the Jewish born Messianic Jews will have the highest "Providential Aid" rate, followed by Orthodox Jews, then by Messianic Jewish converts. Completely falsifiable, if anyone can get the state of Israel (Or USA for a counter-sample) to get me a grant to research this, let me know, I think it could be of great profit.

I'd even take this a moment to say that I believe most "Christians" are MORE likely to suffer bad health, if they erroneously believe that they are not under the Law.

Please shermana, instead of giving us ABSOLUTELY IRRELEVANT SPECULATION about the results of a comparative study between orthodox Jews and secular jews which NEVER TOOK PLACE, and instead of giving us ABSOLUTELY IRRELEVANT anecdotal evidence that is NO BETTER AND NO WORSE than the anecdotal evidence provided by every religious person of every persuasion, why don't you go ahead and answer my OP by either admitting that there is NO empirical extra-Biblical evidence for Bible supernatural claims OR provide some empirical extra-Biblical evidence!

I am waiting for a link to that fragment on Daniel in the DSS!

[Shermana]

I've provided empirical evidence on other threads, you just don't accept it as evidence. This was the whole point of my earlier challenge. If you want to say there's no 'evidence' when I present arguments like that of the Ozone layer or the Solar formation with Entropy, then that's why I say there should be a requirement for the denier to state why with evidence against what has been said. I will address the Daniel fragments now.

As it stands, I presented a falsifiable test and demonstrated why that prayer study is wrong, and I presented a better model to follow. Maybe I can get one done in Israel one day and tests can be made if commandment-followers have better recoveries.

[notachance]

I've provided empirical evidence on other threads, you just don't accept it as evidence. This was the whole point of my earlier challenge. If you want to say there's no 'evidence' when I present arguments like that of the Ozone layer or the Solar formation with Entropy, then that's why I say there should be a requirement for the denier to state why with evidence against what has been said. I will address the Daniel fragments now.

First, the "empirical" evidence you've provided, even if it were true, and not just huge arguments from ignorance of basic physics - copied and pasted from shady apologist websites, would NOT prove that the God of the Bible is real, but just that some generic creator exists. It could be yahweh, it could be Allah, it could be the Spaghetti monster.

Secondly, it MUST be addressed that there is a reason that everybody laughs at your solar system theories. THEY ARE ABSURD!

Can we agree that there are at least 100,000 people with a PhD in Astrophysics?

Can you name 10 among them who disagree with the notion that the formation of solar systems are COMPLETELY CONGRUOUS with our understanding of thermodynamics and entropy? Can you name 10?

If you can, then 0.01% of qualified professionals agree with you, and 99.99 don't.

Find me 50,000 astrophysicist who agree with you, and then we're having a conversation. But as it stands I have the entirety of the scientific community on one side of a scientific debate, and Shermana on the other.

As it stands, I presented a falsifiable test and demonstrated why that prayer study is wrong, and I presented a better model to follow. Maybe I can get one done in Israel one day and tests can be made if commandment-followers have better recoveries.

Sure, get a study going and then we're talking. Until then your BASELESS assertion that the studies in existence are wrong just because you don't like the results, is absolutely irrelevant.

I look forward to you putting forward some tangible empirical evidence that doesn't qualify as such only inside your head, but the validity of which is accepted by at least 0.0001% of experts of the field in question.