JehovahsWitness wrote:notachance wrote:Is there ANY empirical extra-Biblical evidence for supernatural claims in the Bible?
No why would anyone reasonably expect there to be? Indeed what empiracle evidence COULD there be of a supernatural event other than individuals explaining what they saw or experienced (the gospels)*.
Videos, photographs, corroboration by independent witnesses, inexplicable objects created as a result of the supernatural event, measurable and inexplicable changes in the physical properties in the area where the miracle took place, etc.
For example, if an amputee's arm grew back, even though it's medically impossible, then the entire world would be able to see, observe, measure, run tests, on his regrown arm.
Your premise that because a supernatural event is inexplicable, therefore it cannot be scientifically recorded, observed and studied, is ABSURD.
JehovahsWitness wrote:By DEFINITION a "supernatural" event is something that cannot be explained by physical law
Yes, that cannot be EXPLAINED. But it can be OBSERVED. If somebody were able to turn water into wine, science might not be able to explain it, but you can take the wine to a lab and test it for alcohol content, examine it under the microscope, etc. You can establish that it indeed is wine, irrespective of your inability to determine or replicate the process by which it became wine.
JehovahsWitness wrote: therefore if empirical denotes information gained by means of [...] experiments, the request is essentially saying "prove with science something that cannot be proved with science". This is like saying "show me something that is invisible" if it could be shown it wouldn't BE invisible. Obviously.
Wrong. You could spray with water the room in which this invisible entity was standing, and then with flour. The flour would stick to the invisible guy and you'd be able to observe him.
JehovahsWitness wrote:
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence? - While this may well be requested, the request is not necessarily a reasonable one. To illustrate: If my cat talked to me it would be an "extraordinary event". What extraordinary evidence would I produce other then to recount what had happened
.
You could videotape it.
JehovahsWitness wrote:
By definition "supernatural" or "miraculous" events not only defy all known natural laws but are as a consequence unique events that can neither be reproduced, repeated or tested.
Possible. But they can be observed and recorded. If somebody could raise the dead, one could compare the video of his autopsy being carried out, with a later video of him being alive. Stop building a strawman.
JehovahsWitness wrote: In view of this the only thing subsequent generations can do is judge the reliability of the framework of the events (dates, times, locations) and attempt to asses the reliability (sincerity and indeed sanity) of those that claimed to be witnesses*.
There are no witnesses to Biblical events. THe Bible you read today was written 300 years after the events, based on copies of copies of copies of copies of documents based on hearsay based on hearsay based on hearsay.
JehovahsWitness wrote: The only "extraordinary" thing therefore would be the extraordinarily lengths to which sane witnesses are to go to in defence of their testimony and the extraordinarily high price they are willing to pay to do so.
People are willing to die for all sorts of wacky reasons, and to die in the name of wacky delusional beliefs that give meaning to an otherwise hollow life seems a relatively common proposition.
JehovahsWitness wrote:*empirical denotes information gained by means of observation or experiments
Correct. You can observe a miracle and record it. Yet somehow nobody ever has.
Here is my point, JW:
You kept saying that there are prophecies in the Bible and all sorts of other EVIDENCE for the supernatural in the Bible.
Now you are just trying to change your tune because you've been cornered.
If I hadn't pressured you into backing up your CONTINUOUS claims of evidence for the supernatural, you would have NEVER written the evasive post above.
When nobody was truly taking you up on your claims that prophecies exist, etc, you kept making those baseless claims. Now that you realized that I'd keep pressuring you to back up your claims and that you couldn't get away with it, you're trying to backpedal from your earlier claims of empirical evidence for the miracles, and failing to do so.
Your premise that just because a miracle is inexplicable by definition therefore it cannot be observed, is patently false.
IT IS POSSIBLE TO OBSERVE AND RECORD AN INEXPLICABLE EVENT.
The record of such an event would constitute empirical evidence for it.
For Bible claims, such record does not exist. All you have is NON-empirical, anecdotal evidence in the form of 5th or 6th generation hearsay.
It's over buddy.