Killing kids

[Angel]

There are various places in the Bible where God killed babies (the Great flood - Genesis 7:21-23) and ordered others to kill babies (e.g. 1 Samuel 15:1-3).

Genesis 7:21-22 (In the context of the Great Flood)
21 Every living thing that moved on land perished—birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind.
22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died.
23 Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; people and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.

1 Samuel 15:1-3 --
1 Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD.
2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt.
3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’

We can rule out these kids dying due to their parent's sins by factoring in Deuteronomy 24:16..
16 Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin.


Questions for debate:
1. Why did God kill and order for others to kill kids if kids (esp. infants) are innocent?

I'll mention some ideas I've heard before..

Was it for moral reasons?
Was it just to completely wipe out the seed of certain people?
Was it a judgement based on God's foreknowledge?
Are these stories not to be taken literally?

[Autodidact]

Even more disturbing is this passage:

7 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man..The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses.. .15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?� he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the LORD in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the LORD’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
-Numbers 31.

That is, the Israelites had their victory, but that did not satisfy God. They had to go back and kill all the babies and children and women, except the virgins that is, those they could keep.

[less relevant but of interest, later they divide the spoils, including "16,000 people, of whom the tribute for the LORD was 32." And who were those people? Why, they were 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.]

btw, what was the reason the Bible gives for all this slaughter? Vengeance.
"The LORD said to Moses, 2 “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites."

So I think what we learn from these passages is that God is vengeful. Also, everyone born into a tribe is responsible for the actions of that tribe, however long before they themselves were born.

[Angel]

Even more disturbing is this passage:

7 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man..The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses.. .15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?� he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the LORD in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the LORD’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
-Numbers 31.

That is, the Israelites had their victory, but that did not satisfy God. They had to go back and kill all the babies and children and women, except the virgins that is, those they could keep.

[less relevant but of interest, later they divide the spoils, including "16,000 people, of whom the tribute for the LORD was 32." And who were those people? Why, they were 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.]

btw, what was the reason the Bible gives for all this slaughter? Vengeance.
"The LORD said to Moses, 2 “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites."

So I think what we learn from these passages is that God is vengeful. Also, everyone born into a tribe is responsible for the actions of that tribe, however long before they themselves were born.

I'll only respond to the part that I changed to red font.

You are not reading enough of the context. While vengeance was involved but God and Moses elaborates on why the Midianites (who lived in the land of Moab) were enemies to Israel and why God wanted them taken out. Here's what God mentions..

Numbers 25:16-17..
16 The LORD said to Moses, 17 “Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them.

And here's WHY which you've left out..
Numbers 25:18
18 They treated you as enemies when they deceived you in the Peor incident involving their sister Kozbi, the daughter of a Midianite leader, the woman who was killed when the plague came as a result of that incident.�

MOSES elaborates on this in Numbers 31:15-16...
15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?� he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the LORD in the Peor incident , so that a plague struck the LORD’s people. (Also refer to Deuteronomy 4:3-4)

These passages are referring to Numbers 25:1-3 when Israel was engaged in idolatry and sexual immorality with the Moabite women. Also, the leaders of the Midianites hired Balaam to put a curse on Israel if you read Numbers 22:1-6. So from that we can infer that the land of Moabites had people involved in idolatry, sexual immorality, etc. All of these details you left out paints another picture where God was NOT being vengeful just to be vengeful. He was vengeful because the Midianites who lived in the land of Moab tried to curse Israel and subsequently led many of them into idolatry and sexual immorality.

These verses mention the reasons why God is driving out the nations that Israel encounters on the way to their promised land...
Leviticus 18:24, Leviticus 20:22-24, and Deuteronomy 9:4-5
The Moabites fit here.

[Autodidact]

Even more disturbing is this passage:

7 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man..The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses.. .15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?� he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the LORD in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the LORD’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
-Numbers 31.

That is, the Israelites had their victory, but that did not satisfy God. They had to go back and kill all the babies and children and women, except the virgins that is, those they could keep.

[less relevant but of interest, later they divide the spoils, including "16,000 people, of whom the tribute for the LORD was 32." And who were those people? Why, they were 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.]

btw, what was the reason the Bible gives for all this slaughter? Vengeance.
"The LORD said to Moses, 2 “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites."

So I think what we learn from these passages is that God is vengeful. Also, everyone born into a tribe is responsible for the actions of that tribe, however long before they themselves were born.

I'll only respond to the part that I changed to red font.

You are not reading enough of the context. While vengeance was involved but God and Moses elaborates on why the Midianites (who lived in the land of Moab) were enemies to Israel and why God wanted them taken out. Here's what God mentions..

Numbers 25:16-17..
16 The LORD said to Moses, 17 “Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them.

And here's WHY which you've left out..
Numbers 25:18
18 They treated you as enemies when they deceived you in the Peor incident involving their sister Kozbi, the daughter of a Midianite leader, the woman who was killed when the plague came as a result of that incident.�

MOSES elaborates on this in Numbers 31:15-16...
15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?� he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the LORD in the Peor incident , so that a plague struck the LORD’s people. (Also refer to Deuteronomy 4:3-4)

These passages are referring to Numbers 25:1-3 when Israel was engaged in idolatry and sexual immorality with the Moabite women. Also, the leaders of the Midianites hired Balaam to put a curse on Israel if you read Numbers 22:1-6. So from that we can infer that the land of Moabites had people involved in idolatry, sexual immorality, etc. All of these details you left out paints another picture where God was NOT being vengeful just to be vengeful. He was vengeful because the Midianites who lived in the land of Moab tried to curse Israel and subsequently led many of them into idolatry and sexual immorality.

These verses mention the reasons why God is driving out the nations that Israel encounters on the way to their promised land...
Leviticus 18:24, Leviticus 20:22-24, and Deuteronomy 9:4-5
The Moabites fit here.

Vengeance wasn't involved--vengeance was the reason. What was the vengeance for? They " enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the LORD." Well, not these people, exactly, but their ancestors. And their King, Balaak, not them but their king, tried to get a guy named Balaam to curse the Israelites. That's it--that's why these babies are being killed. Because their ancestors persuaded some people to change their religion, and their king tried to get someone to curse them.

So what we learn from these passages is that God is vengeful and extremely unjust.

Unless you think killing people for something they had nothing to do with, that some other people did at some point in the past, is just? Is that your idea of justice?

btw, and another interesting sidelight, the Kozbi incident you refer to. A Midianite woman came into the camp with an Israelite man, went into a tent and had sex with them. Naturally, God therefore struck Israel with a plague. Fortunately, another Israelite man killed them both, so God called the plague off.

Do you think that's a good reason to order the Israelites to kill each and every Midianite baby, nursing infants, toddlers, etc.? Except, of course, for those virgins. They can keep them for themselves.

[Angel]

Even more disturbing is this passage:

7 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man..The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses.. .15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?� he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the LORD in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the LORD’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
-Numbers 31.

That is, the Israelites had their victory, but that did not satisfy God. They had to go back and kill all the babies and children and women, except the virgins that is, those they could keep.

[less relevant but of interest, later they divide the spoils, including "16,000 people, of whom the tribute for the LORD was 32." And who were those people? Why, they were 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.]

btw, what was the reason the Bible gives for all this slaughter? Vengeance.
"The LORD said to Moses, 2 “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites."

So I think what we learn from these passages is that God is vengeful. Also, everyone born into a tribe is responsible for the actions of that tribe, however long before they themselves were born.

I'll only respond to the part that I changed to red font.

You are not reading enough of the context. While vengeance was involved but God and Moses elaborates on why the Midianites (who lived in the land of Moab) were enemies to Israel and why God wanted them taken out. Here's what God mentions..

Numbers 25:16-17..
16 The LORD said to Moses, 17 “Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them.

And here's WHY which you've left out..
Numbers 25:18
18 They treated you as enemies when they deceived you in the Peor incident involving their sister Kozbi, the daughter of a Midianite leader, the woman who was killed when the plague came as a result of that incident.�

MOSES elaborates on this in Numbers 31:15-16...
15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?� he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the LORD in the Peor incident , so that a plague struck the LORD’s people. (Also refer to Deuteronomy 4:3-4)

These passages are referring to Numbers 25:1-3 when Israel was engaged in idolatry and sexual immorality with the Moabite women. Also, the leaders of the Midianites hired Balaam to put a curse on Israel if you read Numbers 22:1-6. So from that we can infer that the land of Moabites had people involved in idolatry, sexual immorality, etc. All of these details you left out paints another picture where God was NOT being vengeful just to be vengeful. He was vengeful because the Midianites who lived in the land of Moab tried to curse Israel and subsequently led many of them into idolatry and sexual immorality.

These verses mention the reasons why God is driving out the nations that Israel encounters on the way to their promised land...
Leviticus 18:24, Leviticus 20:22-24, and Deuteronomy 9:4-5
The Moabites fit here.

Vengeance wasn't involved--vengeance was the reason. What was the vengeance for? They " enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the LORD." Well, not these people, exactly, but their ancestors.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that the Midianites talked about in Numbers chapter 25 were not the same Midianites that Israel attacked in Numbers 31? Can you provide evidence for your claim? In Numbers 31 where Israel defeats the Midianites, we also see Balaam being killed at that time. Balaam was present during the time that the Midianites deceived Israel or got Israel into idolatry and other practices. If Balaam was one of the ones alive during the time of those Midianites who wronged Israel, then why wouldn't the Midianites responsible also be alive rather than their ancestors or whatever you meant by your claim? Also, do you not think that the Midianites, whichever ones, were still engaged in idolatry and sexual immorality up until the time of their destruction?

And their King, Balaak, not them but their king, tried to get a guy named Balaam to curse the Israelites. That's it--that's why these babies are being killed. Because their ancestors persuaded some people to change their religion, and their king tried to get someone to curse them.

Okay, you're changing up on me here. In post #2, you spoke as if ALL of the Midianites were innocent because you failed to mention their idolatry, etc but only mentioned God's vengence. Now you're saying it's just the babies that are innocent which would've helped if you clarified that point instead painting all Midianites as being innocent.

So what we learn from these passages is that God is vengeful and extremely unjust.

Unless you think killing people for something they had nothing to do with, that some other people did at some point in the past, is just? Is that your idea of justice?

Aren't we still talking about the Midianites? I fail to see how you're throwing in that one generation of Midianites who deceived Israel was not the ones defeated in Numbers 31. Balaam was alive during the time of the Midianites deception of Israel and he was killed in Numbers 31 so why wouldn't the same wicked Midianites be killed also (unless you're referring to just the babies which is why I created this thread)? Not to mention besides going off of just ONE incident of getting Israel into idolatry, the Midianites would've still been engaged in idolatry after they were done doing their deeds with Israel so you're not raising any good reasons as to why God would've not had a reason to go after them.

Do you think that's a good reason to order the Israelites to kill each and every Midianite baby, nursing infants, toddlers, etc.? Except, of course, for those virgins. They can keep them for themselves.

Read post #3 as I specifically put in red font the parts of your post I am responding to. I'm only taking issue with a side matter you brought up on this thread. You said that it was ONLY because of vengeance that God ordered for the killing of the Midianites and that's false.

I'm reserving my response on the infants dying because I want to hear other explanations than the one I've used for this issue. I offered my view If God commanded you would you do it? Post #43.

[sleepyhead]

Hello Angel,

>>>1. Why did God kill and order for others to kill kids if kids (esp. infants) are innocent? <<<

I will be approaching your question from the vantage point of a belief in reincarnation rather than from the traditional one lifetime only perspective. Under reincarnation our time on earth is primarily another opportunity to learn the lessons we need rather than the test as claimed by the one lifetime only groups. From the vantage point of reincarnation, infants aren't necesarily any more innocent than grownups. We all have experiences we need to go through to achieve the ultimate goal.

[Autodidact]

Vengeance wasn't involved--vengeance was the reason. What was the vengeance for? They " enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the LORD." Well, not these people, exactly, but their ancestors.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that the Midianites talked about in Numbers chapter 25 were not the same Midianites that Israel attacked in Numbers 31?

What I'm saying, Angel, is that little tiny babies didn't do anything to anyone, and killing them is wrong. Do you disagree?

Also, do you not think that the Midianites, whichever ones, were still engaged in idolatry and sexual immorality up until the time of their destruction?

I think the Midianites, like you, have the right to their religious beliefs and sex lives, and whomever the worship, or whatever kind of sex they choose to have, as long as they're not forcing it on anyone else, is their right, and does not merit killing them, let alone their children. Do you disagree?

And their King, Balaak, not them but their king, tried to get a guy named Balaam to curse the Israelites. That's it--that's why these babies are being killed. Because their ancestors persuaded some people to change their religion, and their king tried to get someone to curse them.

Okay, you're changing up on me here. In post #2, you spoke as if ALL of the Midianites were innocent because you failed to mention their idolatry, etc but only mentioned God's vengence. Now you're saying it's just the babies that are innocent which would've helped if you clarified that point instead painting all Midianites as being innocent.

Check your thread title.

So what we learn from these passages is that God is vengeful and extremely unjust.

Unless you think killing people for something they had nothing to do with, that some other people did at some point in the past, is just? Is that your idea of justice?

Aren't we still talking about the Midianites? I fail to see how you're throwing in that one generation of Midianites who deceived Israel was not the ones defeated in Numbers 31. Balaam was alive during the time of the Midianites deception of Israel and he was killed in Numbers 31 so why wouldn't the same wicked Midianites be killed also (unless you're referring to just the babies which is why I created this thread)? Not to mention besides going off of just ONE incident of getting Israel into idolatry, the Midianites would've still been engaged in idolatry after they were done doing their deeds with Israel so you're not raising any good reasons as to why God would've not had a reason to go after them.

Midianites, like everyone else, should have the right to whatever religion they like. Do you disagree?

Do you think that's a good reason to order the Israelites to kill each and every Midianite baby, nursing infants, toddlers, etc.? Except, of course, for those virgins. They can keep them for themselves.

Read post #3 as I specifically put in red font the parts of your post I am responding to. I'm only taking issue with a side matter you brought up on this thread. You said that it was ONLY because of vengeance that God ordered for the killing of the Midianites and that's false.

Well, the passage says that the motive is vengeance. Do you think vengeance is good or bad?

In the passage from Samuel that you start off with, interesting because it specifically orders people to kill babies, the vengeance is clearly for something that happened centuries before, when the Amalekites ambushed the Israelites.

Is vengeance right, in your view? What about vengeance against babies, for things that happened long before they were born?

[Autodidact]

Hello Angel,

>>>1. Why did God kill and order for others to kill kids if kids (esp. infants) are innocent? <<<

I will be approaching your question from the vantage point of a belief in reincarnation rather than from the traditional one lifetime only perspective. Under reincarnation our time on earth is primarily another opportunity to learn the lessons we need rather than the test as claimed by the one lifetime only groups. From the vantage point of reincarnation, infants aren't necesarily any more innocent than grownups. We all have experiences we need to go through to achieve the ultimate goal.

In that case, is killing babies morally right?

[Autodidact]

Hello Angel,

>>>1. Why did God kill and order for others to kill kids if kids (esp. infants) are innocent? <<<

I will be approaching your question from the vantage point of a belief in reincarnation rather than from the traditional one lifetime only perspective. Under reincarnation our time on earth is primarily another opportunity to learn the lessons we need rather than the test as claimed by the one lifetime only groups. From the vantage point of reincarnation, infants aren't necesarily any more innocent than grownups. We all have experiences we need to go through to achieve the ultimate goal.

Of course, that would contradict the Bible, and therefore the premise of this forum.

[Angel]

I appreciate your viewpoint, Sleepyhead as I had not thought about how reincarnation can play into the issue of the death of these kids. It would be good to consider if these kids had past lives and not so good ones. I'd have to look more into reincarnation and the Bible.