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Joseph, Mary's first husband.
death or divorce.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:54 am  Joseph, Mary's first husband. Reply

Why do we seem to know nothing of Joseph the second of the biological sons of Mary?

Knowing from scripture that Mary had remarried and had bore James the younger of her three biological sons, to Alpheaus/Cleophas, who had sired two sons to a previous marriage and they were Simeon and Jude, the two stepbrothers of Jesus, we must now ask the question, did Joseph, Mary’s first husband and Father to young Joseph the second son of Mary of whom we know so little die, or was he still alive at the time of the death of Jesus, Mary’s first born son?

If this was the case, and the Joseph of Arimathea, who is believed to be the half-brother of Jesus, who laid his body in his own family tomb which had never been used, which would suggest that his father was still alive, then we would be faced with the fact that Joseph must have divorced Mary at some period, and had raised his son Joseph himself: this being the reason why so little is known of Joseph the son of Mary.

But if Mary had remarried while her past husband was still alive, which was absolutely legal according to the law of Moses, she would have been seen to be living in a state of adultery according to the new and controversial teaching of Jesus, which stated that anyone who remarries while their current spouse is still alive, they are committing adultery, and the Jewish authorities would have been right onto him.

This of course is exactly what we see in scripture. The religious authorities of those days were always looking for ways that they might trap Jesus according to his own teaching and then accuse him to the people, and it was after Jesus had been preaching that if a divorced person remarried while their original spouse was still alive, they were committing adultery. It was then that the hypocritical priests thought that they had the means whereby they could make Jesus appear to the people to have one law for himself and another for everyone else.

Pointing to his mother, who was among the crowd who were listening to the great teacher who was setting Israel on fire, they said to Jesus in their most patronising voice, Teacher, this woman has been caught in the very act of adultery. (This was according to the new teaching of Jesus) In our law Moses commanded that such a woman must be stoned to death. Now, what do you say? They said this in order to trap Jesus and accuse him to the people.

Jesus knew what those hypocrites were up to, those hypocrites who thought nothing of stoning the innocent Stephen to death, were bound by the law of Moses to stone this woman to death if she had indeed been caught in the very act of sexual intercourse with a man other than He to who she was legally married at that time, which was deffinately not the case.

Jesus then turned the tables on them by saying, “He who is without sin may cast the first stone.”

Then he bent down and wrote something in the dust, Perhaps he may have written, “As ye judge, so shall ye be judged.” Most men in those days who had been given by Moses the right to issue their wives with a bill of divorce, had done so and taken younger wives, and according to the new teaching of Jesus would have been as guilty as the woman that they were accusing, and the hypocrites knowing full well that the woman had not broken the Law of Moses and was innocent of any crime according to their own teachings, they were forced to walk away with their tails between their legs, thereby admitting to the people that they were not without sin.

Jesus then turned to his mother and asked, “Is there no one left to condemn you?” No one Lord she answered. “Well then,” said Jesus, “I do not condemn you either. Go, but don’t sin again,” and it was for this reason that the mother of Jesus chose to remain separate from her husband Cleophas and his children, and the reason why, on the cross, Jesus entrusted his mother, “Mary the wife of Cleophas,” into the care of his beloved disciple John.
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:48 am  Re: Joseph, Mary's first husband. Reply

S-word wrote:
Why do we seem to know nothing of Joseph the second of the biological sons of Mary? Because the NT isn't about Joseph but Jesus.

Knowing from scripture that Mary had remarried (How do you know this from Scripture?) and had bore James the younger of her three biological sons, to Alpheaus/Cleophas, who had sired two sons to a previous marriage and they were Simeon and Jude, the two stepbrothers of Jesus, we must now ask the question, did Joseph, Mary’s first husband and Father to young Joseph the second son of Mary of whom we know so little die, or was he still alive at the time of the death of Jesus, Mary’s first born son?

If this was the case, and the Joseph of Arimathea, who is believed to be the half-brother of Jesus (believed by whom?), who laid his body in his own family tomb which had never been used, which would suggest that his father was still alive, then we would be faced with the fact that Joseph must have divorced Mary at some period, and had raised his son Joseph himself: this being the reason why so little is known of Joseph the son of Mary. (Seems you have quite an imagination.)

But if Mary had remarried while her past husband was still alive, which was absolutely legal according to the law of Moses, she would have been seen to be living in a state of adultery according to the new and controversial teaching of Jesus, which stated that anyone who remarries while their current spouse is still alive, they are committing adultery, and the Jewish authorities would have been right onto him. (If Mary had a husband, then why did Jesus tell John to take care of her?)

This of course is exactly what we see in scripture. The religious authorities of those days were always looking for ways that they might trap Jesus according to his own teaching and then accuse him to the people, and it was after Jesus had been preaching that if a divorced person remarried while their original spouse was still alive, they were committing adultery. It was then that the hypocritical priests thought that they had the means whereby they could make Jesus appear to the people to have one law for himself and another for everyone else. (The reason, IMO, that the religious leaders couldn't trap Jesus on this account was ... if they caught the woman in adultry, where was the man commiting adultry with her? My guess is that her accusers were guilty of adultry themselves, maybe even with her, thus should be stoned. We love to judge others but do the same things ourselves.)

Pointing to his mother (proof????), who was among the crowd who were listening to the great teacher who was setting Israel on fire, they said to Jesus in their most patronising voice, Teacher, this woman has been caught in the very act of adultery. (This was according to the new teaching of Jesus) In our law Moses commanded that such a woman must be stoned to death. Now, what do you say? They said this in order to trap Jesus and accuse him to the people.

Jesus knew what those hypocrites were up to, those hypocrites who thought nothing of stoning the innocent Stephen to death, were bound by the law of Moses to stone this woman to death if she had indeed been caught in the very act of sexual intercourse with a man other than He to who she was legally married at that time, which was deffinately not the case.

Jesus then turned the tables on them by saying, “He who is without sin may cast the first stone.”

Then he bent down and wrote something in the dust, Perhaps he may have written, “As ye judge, so shall ye be judged.” Most men in those days who had been given by Moses the right to issue their wives with a bill of divorce, had done so and taken younger wives, and according to the new teaching of Jesus would have been as guilty as the woman that they were accusing, and the hypocrites knowing full well that the woman had not broken the Law of Moses and was innocent of any crime according to their own teachings, they were forced to walk away with their tails between their legs, thereby admitting to the people that they were not without sin.

Jesus then turned to his mother and asked, “Is there no one left to condemn you?” No one Lord she answered. “Well then,” said Jesus, “I do not condemn you either. Go, but don’t sin again,” and it was for this reason that the mother of Jesus chose to remain separate from her husband Cleophas and his children, and the reason why, on the cross, Jesus entrusted his mother, “Mary the wife of Cleophas,” into the care of his beloved disciple John. (quite a theory you've got there - and I suppose your opinion answers one of my earlier questions.)


BTW, could Joseph had been the father of all of Mary's children (not including Jesus, of course)? If not, why not?
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:31 am   Reply

[Dokimas wrote]…….BTW, could Joseph had been the father of all of Mary's children (not including Jesus, of course)? If not, why not?

Jesus is the son of Mary and her half brother Joseph the son Heli. I will not go into the importance of the human parentage of Jesus at this particular point in time.

Of Joseph, the second child of Mary, we know practically nothing, which may suggest that he was not brought up in the family of Mary, which family is reasonably well documented.

The only other son of Mary, is James the younger of Mary’s three biological sons, he is the one that Paul refers to as the brother of the Lord, (BROTHER= ADELPHOS (Ἀδελφός): the Greek name meaning "born of the same womb”) and James the Younger were sired by Alpheaus, which is the Aramaic for, “of a renown Father.” Cleophas, which is the Greek for, “of a renown Father,” is the husband of Mary at the time of the crucifixion of Jesus, and as James the younger, who is the brother of the Lord, was a mature young man when Jesus began his ministry, we can safely assume that James was born when Jesus was a young child.

Matthew 13: 55; reads, Isn’t he the carpenter’s son? Isn’t Mary his mother, and aren’t James, Joseph, Simon and Jude his brothers? Etc.

Although Simon is counted among the brethren of Jesus, nowhere in scripture is it revealed exactly who his Father is, but we are given a hint as to his relationship to Jesus, when we read of the fate of James, (In “JESUS THE EVIDENCE,” by Ian Wilson) where we learn from Josephus, Eusebius and Hegesippus, that after leading a life of great piety, worshipping daily in the Temple, and winning great respect from the ordinary people, in 62 AD, he was murdered at the instigation of the same Sadducee sect responsible for the death of Stephen, and of his brother Jesus. James, the brother of the Lord, who was the first to be elected to the Episcopal Throne of the Church of the circumcision in Jerusalem, was subsequently succeeded by Simon the son of his uncle Cleophas, etc.

Because Jude, the brother of James (See the Epistle of Jude,) was one of the twelve disciples, his parentage is given as being the son of Alpheaus, the father of James the younger, who is the brother of the Lord.

On further study, we discover that, Jude is also called Thomas Didymus Jude. This Thomas=Tau’ma, “the Aramiac for twin,” is also called Didymus, which is “the Greek for twin,” he is Thomas Didymus Jude, the brother of Jesus and the son of the carpenter Alpheaus, the father of James and Jude, and perhaps Jesus, but we shall see.

Knowing that in ART, Thomas Didymus Jude, the son of Alpheaus, is depicted with a carpenter’s rule and square, we must ask the question, "Who is the Carpenter to whom Mary was married at that time when her family consisted of James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? Was it Joseph the son of Jacob from the tribe of Judah, who was her first husband, or was it Alpheaus the Father of James the biological son of Mary and the youngest boy in the family, plus Jude, who is also called Judas Thomas, meaning twin?

In "The Acts of Thomas, sometime called by its full name, "The Acts of Judas Thomas," 2nd-3rd century CE, "The Apostles cast lots as to where they should go, and to Thomas, Judas, twin brother to Jesus fell India. Thomas was taken to King Goddophares the ruler of Indo-Pathian Kingdom as an architect and carpenter by Habban.”

Because Jude held a striking resemblance to Jesus, so much so, that he was called the “Twin,” This would seem to suggest that they shared at least one common parent, could Alpheaus be the father to Jesus and James, two of Mary’ biological sons, and the father of Jude to a previous marriage, and could Cleophas, the Father of Simon, be the brother of Alpheaus (Sired by the same renown father} who was to marry Mary who it would seem was divorced by Joseph the father to her second son, who was named after his father and raised by his father.

We would expect that the risen Jesus would first appear to his immediate family, and this is exactly what we see. Matthew 27: 52, And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints that slept arose. Verse 53, And came out of the graves, then three days later, after the resurrection, they went into the Holy city and appeared to many. The first to see one of they who I believe, (And I stand to be corrected if proven wrong) were of body of the risen Christ, Enoch, the 365 day old unblemished Lamb of God, reborn on earth as Jesus, who was offered up for our sake, were his Mother the wife of Cleophas and her (adelphe) which I believe to be (Daughter-in-law) as Jesus was a Rabbi, and it was expected in those days, for all rabbi’ to be married, Mary Magdalene, who, although looking straight at him, thought that he was the gardener, until he spoke her name.

The next to who one of the risen body of Christ appeared, were Cleophas the husband of Mary, who, with his son Simon, 'to another marriage,' who was to inherit the Episcopal throne of the church of the circumcision after his step brother, 'James the righteous,' was killed at the instigation of the same Sadducee sect that had Jesus killed.

Although Cleophas and Simon walked and talked with one of the risen body of Christ for some 11 kilometres, they did not recognise him for who he was, until Simon recognised the manner in which he broke the bread, and realised he was of the risen Christ. Cleophas then returned to Jerusalem, where eleven of the disciples which included Simon Peter and Simon the Patriot, who were cowering in a darkened room, the only one not present that evening according to John, was Thomas (Called the twin) when Cleophas called out to the disciples, they opened the door to him as he said to the eleven, "He has risen, he appeared to Simon," who was of course Simon the brother of Jesus, who succeeded ‘James the younger’ as the head of the church founded by Jesus.

Then there were the seven disciples who were fishing on Lake Galilee having no success at all, when someone on the bank told them to throw their net on the right side of the boat in which they caught 153 fishes, sitting down to eat with the person who had a fire prepared with fish on it and some bread, not one dared to ask who he was, but they understood that he was of the risen body of Christ. Even when he ascended up into heaven as a cloud, some of the 11 disciples doubted that it was he.

365, the number of days in a calendar year, the age of the sacrificial lamb. Genesis 5: 23; Enoch at the age of 365, disappeared for God had taken him . Hebrew 11: 5; By faith Enoch was translated [changed from one form to another] that he should not see death; and was not found for God had translated him, etc.

Noah, his wife, their three sons and their wives are all direct descendants of Enoch’s six sons, Methusalah, Rigam, Riman, Urchan, Cherminion and Giadad. It was in the new body that rose from the baptismal waters, that Enoch ascended to the ends of this age.

When the “Son of Man,” descended through time and was chosen by Abraham as his God, “Who I Am,” said to Abraham, “In blessing, I will bless you, and in multiplying (Bearing sons) I will multiply you.

When Abraham was born, not one of his ten ancestors had died and had been gathered to the living and evolving spirit of Enoch, our indwelling father. Abraham was true to who He was, to see Abraham, was to see the Man Enoch, the only man to have been taken to God and to have received the gift of eternal life. See genesis 5: 23; and Hebrew 11: 5.

From that day all the spirits of Good people who had fallen asleep in righteousness after paying the blood price for any sins or mistakes that they had made in their lives, wereseparated from the unrighteous dead and gathered to the growing spirit of Enoch, within the bosom of Abraham.

Isaiah 57: 1; “Good people die and no one understands or even cares. But when they (Good People) die, no calamity can harm them. Those who lead good lives, find peace and rest in death.”

If those who live good lives find peace and rest in death, then there awaits a state of fearful expectation for those who lead wicked lives, as described by Jesus in his Parable of “Lazarus and the rich man.”

The Father spirit in Jesus, was Enoch as he had evolved to at that point in time, The spiritual indwelling Father of Jesus, was Enoch the compilation of all the spirits of Good people who had fallen asleep in righteousness after paying the blood price for any mistakes in their lives, and had been gathered to the bosom of Abraham.

With the death of the body of Jesus/Enoch reborn, those rightpous spirits over whom the second death has no power were released from their graves. These are the risen body of Jesus who showed themselves to the people in Jerusalem.
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Sun Jan 01, 2012 3:17 am   Reply

I wrote the previous post on New Years Eve, after a wonderful feed and a few glasses of a, “not too cheap,” bottle of deep aromatic red wine. Now I think that I should clarify the message.

We know that the name of the mother of Jesus is Mary.

We know that Mary the mother of Jesus was at the cross on the day that he died.

We know from Matthew 13: 55; that there were five boys, who belonged to the family of Mary, and they are Jesus, James the younger, Joseph, Simeon and Jude. But we are not told there, whether they are all her biological sons, or if some may be stepsons.

Matthew 27: 56; Reveals that among the women at the cross of Jesus, Is Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, Then in 27: 61; Matthew states that watching the burial of Jesus, were Mary Magdalene and the OTHER Mary, who is obviously Mary the Mother of James and Joseph, who he had previously said was at the cross.

Now in chapter 28: 1; Matthew reveals that after the Sabbath, there came to the empty tomb, Mary Magdalene and the OTHER Mary, who, again is obviously Mary the mother of James and Joseph. But what Matthew does here, is to reveal to us that there were only two women at the cross, burial, and empty tomb of Jesus, by the name Mary, not three or four, but only two, and they are Mary Magdalene and the only other woman by the name Mary, who is Mary the mother of Jesus , Joseph and James the younger.

Mark 15: 40; reveals that among the women at the cross, were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and Joseph, and a woman by the name Salome, who is believed to be the wife of Zebedee. Then in verse 47; Mark has Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joseph at the burial of Jesus, and after the Sabbath, he has Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James at the empty tomb.

Luke does not mention the names of the women at the cross or the burial of Jesus, but he does reveal that after the Sabbath, there came to the empty tomb, Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James (the brother of the Lord, who is the son of Alpheaus, “Of a renowned Father.”)

We now know that Mary the mother of Jesus was at the cross of Jesus. John 19: 26; Jesus saw his mother and the disciple that he loved standing by the cross, so he said to his mother, He is your son.” Then he said to his disciple, “She is your mother.”

We know from Matthew, that there were only two women by the name Mary at the cross, the burial and the empty tomb of Jesus: and from Matthew, Mark and Luke, we know the two women named Mary, were Mary Magdalene and Mary the Mother of James and Joseph, the only two of the four brothers of Jesus, who are the actual sons of Mary, and born of the same womb as Jesus.

John reveals a little more of the only two women at the cross of Jesus by the name Mary, and they are his Mother, Mary the wife of Cleophas, (The masculine for the female name “Cleopatra”) and her “adelphe” (Close relative,) Mary Magdalene.
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:27 pm   Reply

S-word wrote:

We know from Matthew, that there were only two women by the name Mary at the cross, the burial and the empty tomb of Jesus: and from Matthew, Mark and Luke, we know the two women named Mary, were Mary Magdalene and Mary the Mother of James and Joseph, the only two of the four brothers of Jesus, who are the actual sons of Mary, and born of the same womb as Jesus.

John reveals a little more of the only two women at the cross of Jesus by the name Mary, and they are his Mother, Mary the wife of Cleophas, (The masculine for the female name “Cleopatra”) and her “adelphe” (Close relative,) Mary Magdalene.


I must be missing something significant here. Nothing I have read in the New Testament or in scholarly analysis suggests that Mary married more than once.
References to Jesus' brothers mention James, Joseph, Simon, and Jude - see Mark 6.3, John 7.3, Acts 1.14, and 1 Cor 9.5.

The most obvious inference is that they are sons of Mary and Joseph, born after Christ. That was the accepted opinion until the late 4th century when St Jerome postulated the perpetual virginity of Mary. From that date, they were said to be the sons of Mary, the "mother of James and Joses" (Mark 15.40) - identified by Jerome as the wife of Clopas and sister of the Virgin Mary (John 19. 25).

There is a counter-opinion from St Epiphanius and the Eastern Church that they were sons of Joseph by a former marriage.

None of these seem to support the idea of Mary having remarried. I would be fascinated to learn where in the New Testament that idea can be found.
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:01 pm   Reply

The apostle James, who Paul declares is the brother of the Lord, is the son of Alpheaus. Do you make the claim that James and his brother Jude, who were both sired by Alpheaus are the sons of Joseph the son of Jacob from the tribe of Judah?
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:46 pm   Reply

I make no claim about the parentage of the various Jameses in the New Testament.
I just read the text.

James was a common name in NT times - look for example at Acts 1:13
"When they had entered the city, they went to the room upstairs where they were staying, Peter, and John, and James, and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James." There are two, possibly three Jameses if Judas isn't the son of one of the other two mentioned.

James and Levi, the sons of Alphaeus, appear in various places in the New Testament. Nothing indicates that they are "brothers" of Jesus.

I still have seen no Biblical evidence that Mary married anyone other than Joseph.
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:49 pm   Reply

[Keef wrote]…….James was a common name in NT times - look for example at Acts 1:13
"When they had entered the city, they went to the room upstairs where they were staying, Peter, and John, and James, and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James." There are two, possibly three Jameses if Judas isn't the son of one of the other two mentioned.


[S-word's Response]......There are only two apostles by the name James, one of them is the apostle James that Paul saw when he returned to Jerusalem, the other is James the son of Zebedee, who at the time of Paul's return to Jerusalem, had been Killed by Herod Agrippa 1, who, In 34 AD, shortly after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and after Philips reign had came to an end: in 36 AD, Herod Agrippa 1, the grandson of Herod the Great and nephew of Philip and Antipas, received the tetrarch of the Macedonian district of Batanaera and Trachonitis to the east of the sea of Galilee, formerly held by his uncle Philip.

When Herod Antipas and Herodias (The wife of Philip) tried to discredit Agrippa 1, who was in favour with the Emperor Caligula, they themselves were banished, Antipas’ tetrarch passing on to Agrippa 1 in AD 39. Then in 41 AD and after the assassination of Caligula, Agrippa’s support for Claudius was rewarded with the government of Judea, which had, since the banishment of Herod Archelaus, been ruled by Roman procurators for about 30 years. It was this Herod, who enjoyed the support and adoration of the Jewish authorities, who did all in his power to crush the infant Jewish Apostolic Church.

So James the apostle who was the brother of the Lord according to Paul and Josephus the historian, is the son of Alpheaus and the brother of Jude who was also sired by Alpheaus.

[Keef wrote]…….James and Levi, the sons of Alphaeus, appear in various places in the New Testament. Nothing indicates that they are "brothers" of Jesus.

[S-word's Response]......And from where did you receive the revelation that Levi is the son of Alpheaus, and Jude was the son of James.

Luke 6: 16; in reference to Jude the apostle of the Lord, who is also called Lebbeus and Thaddeus, merely says, “Jude of James.”

The KJV has correctly interpreted this to be, Jude the BROTHER of James, this they did, because, in epistle of Jude the servant (Apostle) of the Lord, where Jude says he is the BROTHER of James, the word “brother” used here, meaning biological brother, reveals that other translations, which have all translated Jude I: correctly as “Jude the brother of James, have incorrectly interpreted Luke 6: 13; “Jude of James” to mean “Jude the son” of James.

As to Levi being the son of Alpheaus as you believe, in Luke 4: 24; it is written, “Levi of Alpheaus,” now I put it to you, that the same error of interpretation that was made in Luke 6: 13; has been made here, and Levi is in fact the BROTHER of Alpheaus.

[Keef wrote]…….I still have seen no Biblical evidence that Mary married anyone other than Joseph.

If you had bothered to read my previous post while comprehending that which was written you will have seen that Matthew reveals that there were only two by the name Mary, at the cross, the burial and the empty tomb of Jesus, and they are Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Joseph. Now please, do not be so naïve as to believe that God’s word would introduce here, some James and Joseph who are revealed nowhere else in the holy scriptures, this James and Joseph, the sons of Mary are the same James the younger and Joseph who are recorded as the brothers of Jesus.

The only two women by the name Mary at the cross of Jesus, according to John, is Mary the wife of Cleophas, who is the biological father of Simon, and the very first two men that Jesus appeared to after his resurrection, and Mary Magdalene, her sister in suffering and in the faith.

The bible is such a condensed story there is no room for useless trivia, we have a brother of Jesus who is named Joseph, and that is about all we know of him, that he is one of the three biological sons of Mary. So when we read that Mary the mother of Jesus, was married to Cleophas, who is also called Alpheaus and is the biological father of James the younger, who is that apostle, who Paul refers to as the brother of the Lord, then we must accept that this is James the younger, who is the Son of Mary the mother of Jesus her firstborn child, and if her second husband is the father of her youngest son James, then we must assume that Joseph is younger than Jesus, but older than James the younger of Mary's sons.

We now must ask, who is the Father of Joseph? We can be confident that it was not the half brother to Mary, who was Joseph the Levite, who was sired by Heli the father of Mary, and according to Luke, was believed by the people to have been the biological father of Jesus, so we are led to the conclusion that he had to be the son and namesake of his Father, Joseph the son of Jacob from the tribe of Judah.

Now then, owing to the fact that James the younger, was the son of Mary and Cleophas/Alpheaus, and that he was a mature adult when Jesus began his ministry, then we can assume that Mary was legally married to the father of James the younger when Jesus was a young lad, he may have been the father (Stepfather) of Jesus who searched for three days with Mary before finding Jesus in the temple, who said to his mother, "Why did you have to search for me? surely you knew I had to be in my father's house, which utterly gob smacked his parents, who knew who his real father was, they just didn't understand what the young boy was on about, but Mary kept these things in her memory.

But Joseph the younger brother to Jesus still eludes us. And why did Mary remarry, had Joseph from the tribe of Judah divorced her, or had he died.

Then we read what would appear to be useless trivia. What has the fact, that some mysterious Joseph from the town of Arimathea, (A town in the district that Joseph the son of Jacob, wanted to reside in when they returned from Egypt, but was too afraid because the cruel son of Herod the Great was ruling there) claimed the body of Jesus and laid it in his own FAMILY tomb?

Why bother to state that it was the family tomb of Joseph? That fact doesn't appear to be relevant to anything, but then to continue and say that it was his FAMILY tomb, that had never been used, we ask, is the bible here, suggesting that the family tomb in which the body of Jesus was laid, was the tomb of his brother and his first adopted father, and as that family tomb had never been used, we are forced to ask, "is the spirit revealing that Joseph the first husband of Mary was still alive?"

This would be the reason why James the younger of Mary's three sons, is always placed before Joseph the second born, because he had been alienated from the family of Mary when His father had divorced her and raised young Joseph himself, in the town of Arimathea.

Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joseph, who was the mother of Jesus, who followed him everywhere after he had began preaching that if a divorced person remarried while their original spouse was still alive, they were committing adultery, and in obedience to her son’s teaching, she ceased all relations with Cleophas/Alpheaus, her legal husband according to the law of the land, and his three sons, James the younger of Mary's sons, and the other two sons of Cleophas/Alpheaus, who were Simon and Judas, and it was for this reason, that jesus, while hanging on the cross he down and saw his mother, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and the disciple that he loved, to whom he left to care for his mother.
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 9: Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:15 pm   Reply

S-word wrote:
......And from where did you receive the revelation that Levi is the son of Alpheaus, and Jude was the son of James.


I don't have time right now (in a busy life) to deal with all your questions above. I will get to them later, if time permits.

The source for the information I gave is the Bible.

Levi is the son of Alphaeus, according to Mark 2: 14 - Καὶ παράγων εἶδε Λευΐν τὸν τοῦ ᾿Αλφαίου, καθήμενον ἐπὶ τὸ τελώνιον, καὶ λέγει αὐτῷ· ἀκολούθει μοι. καὶ ἀναστὰς ἠκολούθησεν αὐτῷ.

Judas is the son of James, as stated in Acts 1: 13 - καὶ ὅτε εἰσῆλθον, ἀνέβησαν εἰς τὸ ὑπερῷον οὗ ἦσαν καταμένοντες, ὅ τε Πέτρος καὶ ᾿Ιάκωβος καὶ ᾿Ιωάννης καὶ ᾿Ανδρέας, Φίλιππος καὶ Θωμᾶς, Βαρθολομαῖος καὶ Ματθαῖος, ᾿Ιάκωβος ᾿Αλφαίου καὶ Σίμων ὁ ζηλωτὴς καὶ ᾿Ιούδας ᾿Ιακώβου.

Quote:
Luke 6: 16; in reference to Jude the apostle of the Lord, who is also called Lebbeus and Thaddeus, merely says, “Jude of James.”

The KJV has correctly interpreted this to be, Jude the BROTHER of James, this they did, because, in epistle of Jude the servant (Apostle) of the Lord, where Jude says he is the BROTHER of James, the word “brother” used here, meaning biological brother, reveals that other translations, which have all translated Jude I: correctly as “Jude the brother of James, have incorrectly interpreted Luke 6: 13; “Jude of James” to mean “Jude the son” of James.


That is an opinion which is not shared by most biblical scholars. The KJV (which in England is called the AV) is as far as I know unique in translating that as BROTHER of James. If I take the versions I have here in my study, and check Luke 6: 16 (or Acts 1:13) I find:
New English Bible: Judas son of James
ISV: Judas (the son of James)
AV: Judas the brother of James (brother being shown in lighter text)
NRSV: Judas son of James
New International Version: Judas son of James
New American Standard Version: Judas the son of James
Russian Synodal Text: Иуду Иаковлева
Vulgate: Iudam Iacobi
ASV: Judas the son of James (son being in lighter text)
BBE: Judas, the son of James
Moffatt: Judas son of James
New Welsh Bible: Jwdas fab Iago
Common English Bible: Judas the son of James
CEV: Jude, who was the son of James
ESV: Judas the son of James
Revised English Bible: Judas son of James
Luther Translation: Judas, des Jakobus Sohn
Good News Bible: Judas son of James
New German Translation: Judas ben Jakobus
Greek New Testament: ᾿Ιούδαν ᾿Ιακώβου
Jerusalem Bible: Judas son of James

From that sample, based on the languages I read or speak, the AV (KJV in the USA) stands in splendid isolation as the only one of those translations to change the meaning to BROTHER.

Professor Lampe (whom I have mentioned before) says this about Luke 6:16 -
"... Judas the son of James replaces Thaddaeus (cf Jn 14:22); the alternative translation 'brother of James' is due to an attempted identification of this Judas with the brother of Jesus and James (Mk 6:3)."

As a linguist by training, I would not argue with the learned translators of those versions, but I know that the genitive case (᾿Ιακώβου, Iacobi) signifies parenthood, not who the person's brother was. It really is that simple - it's one of the reasons the genitive case is called genitive.

If you elect to disregard almost all the scholarly input of the past 400 years, that is
of course your privilege. You will understand that I do not choose to join you in this.

The same discussion applies to Levi the son of Alphaeus.

Quote:

If you had bothered to read my previous post while comprehending that which was written you will have seen that Matthew reveals that there were only two by the name Mary, at the cross, the burial and the empty tomb of Jesus, and they are Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Joseph. Now please, do not be so naïve as to believe that God’s word would introduce here, some James and Joseph who are revealed nowhere else in the holy scriptures, this James and Joseph, the sons of Mary are the same James the younger and Joseph who are recorded as the brothers of Jesus.


I assure you I read it. However, I think you are making a major assumption which is not borne out by the text. You are also misreading the text.
John's Gospel names THREE women called Mary who were at the foot of the cross: John 19:25 - Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother (Mary 1), and his mother's sister, Mary (2) the wife of Cleophas, and Mary (3) Magdalene.

Hence I cannot accept your assertion that "The only two women by the name Mary at the cross of Jesus, according to John, is Mary the wife of Cleophas, who is the biological father of Simon, and the very first two men that Jesus appeared to after his resurrection, and Mary Magdalene, her sister in suffering and in the faith."
That is not borne out by the text.

Once you introduce such a fundamental error into the text, any conclusions you may then draw about who Jesus was, or who Mary may have married, become no more than speculation.

You are of course free to speculate, but please accept that others may and will disagree with you.
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 10: Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:58 am   Reply

Professor Lampe is an ordained Catholic priest of the Archdiocese of Milwaukee and has served as pastor of St. Vincent de Paul Parish in Milwaukee and St. Joseph Parish in Grafton, Wis., as well as providing sacramental ministry in many Catholic parishes. He is a member of several professional societies, including the Catholic Biblical Association, the Society of Biblical Literature, and the American Council for Teachers of Foreign Language. He is currently a member of the Catholic-Jewish Conference of Milwaukee, a member of the Continuing Formation of Clergy Advisory Board for the Archdiocese of Milwaukee, and a member of the Advisory Board for the Lux Center for Catholic-Jewish Studies at Sacred Heart School of Theology.

Lampe, the authority that you put forward as the conveyor of truth, believes in the immaculate conception of Mary and her son Jesus, he believes also in the perpetual virginity of Mary and that she bore no children other than Jesus. He would believe also in the ascension of the dead body of Mary into heaven before it began to decompose, he would also undoubtedly be in possession of a set of Rosary beads, which he would use in his prayers to Mary the mother of God and co-redeemer with her son who is one and the same as the Father, who is the creator of the entire cosmos.

But as you simply pick and choose from God’s holy word, only that which titillates the taste buds of your mind, I would imagine that you do the same with the authorities that you choose to defend your own erroneous belief. But perhaps I could be mistaken, and you, like professor Lampe, are a staunch RCC of the church of Constantine and his mother Helena.

Professor Lampe also writes, that Simon the zealot, was Simon the brethren of Jesus as revealed in Matthew 13: 55;

The very first men to whom the risen Jesus appeared, were Cleophas the husband of his mother Mary, and his travelling companion as they walked to Emmaus some 11 kilometres from Jerusalem. When Jesus was identified by the manner in which he broke the bread, and after he had disappeared, Cleophas hurried back to Jerusalem, where 11 of the disciples were locked in a dimly lit room.

According to John, the only apostle missing that evening, was “Thomas Jude the Twin,” Simon Peter and Simon the Zealot were in that room when Cleophas the husband of Mary, and Father of Simon the brethren of Jesus, cried out, “He has risen, he has appeared to Simon. It was this Simon the son of Cleophas, who succeeded his Brethren James to the Episcopal throne of the church of the circumcision in Jerusalem.

Bring out all you experts my friend, those who believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary the biological mother of Jesus, Joseph and James the younger of her three sons, who was sired by Alpheaus, who could be one and the same person as Cleophas, who was the husband of Mary at the time of the crucifixion of her firstborn son, Jesus of Nazareth.

Matthew reveals that there were only two women at the cross, the burial, and the empty tomb of Jesus. When he refers to the other Mary, who was with Mary Magdalene at the burial, and the empty tomb of Jesus, he was referring to Mary the Mother of the two brothers of Jesus, James the younger and Joseph, who was the only other woman at the cross of Jesus by the, name, Mary.

Standing by the gate, was the son of my sister and his dog, Matthew and spot. What is the name of my nephew, and what is the name of his dog?

Standing by the cross of Jesus, was his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus saw his mother, (Mary the wife of Cleophas) and the disciple that he loved standing near, he said to his mother. “Woman, behold your Son!” Then he said to the disciple, behold, your mother!”

Levi is not said to be the son of Alpheaus, all who will read this post should know that the words, “THE SON” in that passage is merely an interpretation and not a translation from the documents that have been erroneously interpreted by men, who can be shown to have made many other erroneous interpretations of God’s Holy word.

Your mate Peter Lampe, would love to have three women at the cross by the name Mary, he needs to find a mother for the other two sons (Joseph and James) of his supposed perpetual virginal heavenly queen, who is the mother of his God

John 20: 17; “Go, tell my brothers that I ascend to HIM, who is my Father and their Father, to my God and their God.

Just in case you cry out, “But the interpreters of my Bible say that Jesus said in John 20: 17; “Tell my brothers I am (RETURNING) to Him, etc”

“ἀναβαίνω (anabainó) = to go up, ascend.” There are many Greek word's that can be translated "RETURN," (anabaino) is not one of them. "Our Father who art in heaven." We all have the one heavenly Father, the sad thing is that many, many, who reject the truth of his word, will never win the victory over the God of this world, and never be allowed into his presence.
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