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Does Apostle Paul Contradict Jesus?
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Punchinello Offline
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:53 am  Does Apostle Paul Contradict Jesus? Reply

I ask this because my Fundie friend as well as some articles I found online said that there are no contradictions. From things I have read, it sure looks like there are contradictions.

I pointed out to my friend what Jesus said to the Lawyer who asked Him what does he need to do to be saved. Jesus said basically to Love God and treat others the way you want to be treated. "Do this and you shall live.". Paul, I believe, basically says that to be saved, you need to accept Jesus as your savior. Believe that and you'll get a golden ticket to heaven. My friend tried to harmonize what Jesus said by saying nobody can do what Jesus said to the Lawyer to do. We can't even come close. We're not going to give up all of our worldly posessions. I told him he was editorializing. He said he wasn't.

Here is Jesus telling the Lawyer what he needs to do to be saved and that's not a good enough answer?. Here is the Son of God telling the Lawyer exactly what he needs to do but some people say that's not good enough. Why would the Son of God give the Lawyer a half azzed answer or an incomplete answer?

This is my second post and I hope it doesn't cause an argument like my first post.
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:50 am  Re: Does Apostle Paul Contradict Jesus? Reply

Punchinello wrote:
I ask this because my Fundie friend as well as some articles I found online said that there are no contradictions. From things I have read, it sure looks like there are contradictions.

I pointed out to my friend what Jesus said to the Lawyer who asked Him what does he need to do to be saved. Jesus said basically to Love God and treat others the way you want to be treated. "Do this and you shall live.". Paul, I believe, basically says that to be saved, you need to accept Jesus as your savior. Believe that and you'll get a golden ticket to heaven. My friend tried to harmonize what Jesus said by saying nobody can do what Jesus said to the Lawyer to do. We can't even come close. We're not going to give up all of our worldly posessions. I told him he was editorializing. He said he wasn't.

Here is Jesus telling the Lawyer what he needs to do to be saved and that's not a good enough answer?. Here is the Son of God telling the Lawyer exactly what he needs to do but some people say that's not good enough. Why would the Son of God give the Lawyer a half azzed answer or an incomplete answer?

This is my second post and I hope it doesn't cause an argument like my first post.


Paul, and subsequently the Church, contradicts Jesus both substantively and as to worship practices. I am pressed for time, but IMO (as I have said often) Jesus would not be a Christian were he alive today. He was born, indoctrinated and died a Jew; the same with his disciples, and at no time in his teachings or instructions to them did he suggest beginning a new religion. In fact, it seems to me he wasn't very pleased with his own religion and would perhaps rather we gave up all our concocted religious notions about God and focus instead on the needs of one another. As Jesus said "God does not want your sacrifices( ritual practices and religion) but rather your kindness" (toward others). If Christianity had followed Jesus instead of Paul we might have a much better world than the one we have created with Christianity and Islam at the moral helm.

As an aside, I read in USA Today this morning that the US has 2% of the world's population but 25% of the worlds incarcerated inmates. We are a relatively wealthy nation and an educated nation and arguably a 'Christian' nation; perhaps we could use a different benchmark for our morality than Christianity. Surely we can do better; and 'Jesus' would be proud if we did....IMHO.
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:59 am  Re: Does Apostle Paul Contradict Jesus? Reply

Punchinello wrote:
I ask this because my Fundie friend as well as some articles I found online said that there are no contradictions. From things I have read, it sure looks like there are contradictions.

I pointed out to my friend what Jesus said to the Lawyer who asked Him what does he need to do to be saved. Jesus said basically to Love God and treat others the way you want to be treated. "Do this and you shall live.". Paul, I believe, basically says that to be saved, you need to accept Jesus as your savior. Believe that and you'll get a golden ticket to heaven. My friend tried to harmonize what Jesus said by saying nobody can do what Jesus said to the Lawyer to do. We can't even come close. We're not going to give up all of our worldly posessions. I told him he was editorializing. He said he wasn't.

Here is Jesus telling the Lawyer what he needs to do to be saved and that's not a good enough answer?. Here is the Son of God telling the Lawyer exactly what he needs to do but some people say that's not good enough. Why would the Son of God give the Lawyer a half azzed answer or an incomplete answer?

This is my second post and I hope it doesn't cause an argument like my first post.

In reality Jesus is pointing out that he wasn't saved because the evidence that would confirm that he was is clearly lacking. The true mark of any believer is agape love that is unknown to the unregenerate soul. We know that we have passed from death unto life because we have an agape love.
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:32 am  Re: Does Apostle Paul Contradict Jesus? Reply

Jesus taught obedience to the Law, not the letter but a deeper understanding of the intent of the law. This is well illustrated in Matthew 23
Quote:

The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; therefore all that they tell you, do and observe,

He is not saying that the scribes' and the Pharisees' teachings were false and to be disregarded. The instructions from Moses, according to Jesus were to be kept. As he said in Matthew 5, "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets [...] Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Quote:

but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them. They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger. But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments. They love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues, and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called Rabbi by men. But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ. But the greatest among you shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.


Keep the law, but do so in the true spirit that it was intended, is the message from Jesus. Make an effort to understand the intent of the law and serve god with humility.

Quote:

But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation.
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, that is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple is obligated.’ You fools and blind men! Which is more important, the gold or the temple that sanctified the gold? And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, that is nothing, but whoever swears by the offering on it, he is obligated.’ You blind men, which is more important, the offering, or the altar that sanctifies the offering? Therefore, whoever swears by the altar, swears both by the altar and by everything on it. And whoever swears by the temple, swears both by the temple and by Him who dwells within it. And whoever swears by heaven, swears both by the throne of God and by Him who sits upon it.
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence. You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also.
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, and say, ‘If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?


This is a passage of scripture that we don't often see emphasized in Christianity today. Jesus is using very strong language here. This is obviously something that is very important to him. Anyone who would make the claim to be a disciple of Jesus makes their claim a sham, if they do not share Jesus obvious passion for the point he is trying to make. And what is the point? Hypocrisy. Jesus' strongest words of condemnation are for the religious hypocrites. The ones who make long prayers, who wear showy religious garb, who make money from religion, who only focuses on making converts but not justice, mercy and faithfulness, who have the appearance of being right but in actuality are not. Does any of this sound familiar?


Paul, on the other hand, taught grace, a free unmerited gift from God, and taught that the law was a curse (Galatians chapter 3). In Romans chapter five
Paul wrote:

For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.





Punchinello wrote:

This is my second post and I hope it doesn't cause an argument like my first post.


I disagree. I hope that is causes several well thought out and civil arguments. I hope that it does not cause strife and bickering.
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:08 pm  Re: Does Apostle Paul Contradict Jesus? Reply

Punchinello wrote:

I pointed out to my friend what Jesus said to the Lawyer who asked Him what does he need to do to be saved. Jesus said basically to Love God and treat others the way you want to be treated. "Do this and you shall live.". Paul, I believe, basically says that to be saved, you need to accept Jesus as your savior. Believe that and you'll get a golden ticket to heaven.


I think there is no contradiction between Paul and Jesus.

Jesus came to declare forgiveness of the sins and therefore he is savior. He saves from judgment that comes because of sin. Jesus also can help person to become righteous, which is another reason to see him as savior. And if you accept what Jesus told, it can save you, because it can make you righteous and free of sins. Both Jesus and Paul expect people to become righteous.

According to Bible, only righteous will have eternal life. Therefore Jesus taught also about repentance and about that newborn thing and also about that how we should live. Our innermost must improve, so that we become righteous. It can happen by believing what Jesus said. And when you are righteous, you willingly love God, without any have to. And when you love God, you want to do that what is God’s will. It proves you righteous. Good works are not therefore that people could earn something, they are to prove person righteous.

I have written more about this in here:
http://www.kolumbus.fi/r.berg/Who_will_be_saved.html
And it would be nice to hear what you think about it. I hope my translation is not too bad.
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:21 am  Re: Does Apostle Paul Contradict Jesus? Reply

Punchinello wrote:
I ask this because my Fundie friend as well as some articles I found online said that there are no contradictions. From things I have read, it sure looks like there are contradictions.

I pointed out to my friend what Jesus said to the Lawyer who asked Him what does he need to do to be saved. Jesus said basically to Love God and treat others the way you want to be treated. "Do this and you shall live.". Paul, I believe, basically says that to be saved, you need to accept Jesus as your savior. Believe that and you'll get a golden ticket to heaven. My friend tried to harmonize what Jesus said by saying nobody can do what Jesus said to the Lawyer to do. We can't even come close. We're not going to give up all of our worldly posessions. I told him he was editorializing. He said he wasn't.

Here is Jesus telling the Lawyer what he needs to do to be saved and that's not a good enough answer?. Here is the Son of God telling the Lawyer exactly what he needs to do but some people say that's not good enough. Why would the Son of God give the Lawyer a half azzed answer or an incomplete answer?

This is my second post and I hope it doesn't cause an argument like my first post.


REQUEST FOR SUPPORTING EVIDENCE

This would depend on how one interprets Jesus words, and any relavent word of the Apostle Paul. Logically, as with any words spoken or recorded on paper, there are usually various interpretations possible. If you could provide references to teachings of Paul you feel the above is contradicting so that in depth analysis of content and context can be made, that would be helpful in the debate.

You say "Paul, I believe, basically says that to be saved, you need to accept Jesus as your savior. Believe that and you'll get a golden ticket to heaven. " I take it you are paraphasing, can you provide the reference passage(s), so we can debate this logically - Paul wrote a lot of in depth commentaries on this and many, many related topics. It would also be helpful if you also provide the reference for Jesus' words under debate as well, since the gospel accounts often vary in content.

I think this is a very interesting topic but am making a request that you "support your claims with evidence", otherwise its like answering someone that asks "Do you think this woman looks like my wife?" without providing any proof of what your wife looks like.

Thank you
JW


Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:51 am; edited 2 times in total
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:03 am   Reply

The question presupposes that the portrayal of Jesus, as variously contained in the canonical gospels, is closer to the real Jesus than that of Paul’s kerygma.

We know from Paul that his gospel was only one among many; that his proclamation was rejected by others. But were any of these other gospels closer to the actual teachings of Jesus than Paul’s?

The most obvious criticism of Paul’s gospel is that he never actually heard the earthly Jesus. Consequently his gospel was, at best, second hand or, at worst, his invention.

A second problem is that we do not know what Paul actually preached to convert the non-believer. We only have his letters which are all addressed to Christian congregations. Furthermore Paul’s letters provide us with just one side of the conversation; we can only speculate as to what prompted him to write in the first place, and what response his letters elicited.

However, Paul’s letters were written much closer in time to Jesus’ life than any of the canonical gospels (and were their “authors” actually acquainted with the real live Jesus?).

The conditions in which Paul worked were much closer to those pertaining during Jesus lifetime. In contrast the canonical gospels were all compiled after the Jewish war. Consequently their communities faced different pressures and had different perspectives.

Furthermore, given the differences between the canonical gospels, it would appear that the circumstances in which they were compiled exercised a strong selective influence upon the character of what was preserved. In other words, these communities were interested in only preserving material that conformed to their view of Christ.

These communities took it for granted that the heavenly Christ continued to reveal the truth about himself to his followers in various ways. Since this Christ was the same person as the earthly Jesus it was only natural that the “memories” of his earthly life should be modified and added to, in the light of the prevailing circumstances.

For example, the Matthean church evidently found itself in conflict with the local synagogues . To justify their opposition (in particular) to the Pharisees, they believed that Jesus would have condemned both the scribes and Pharisees as hypocrites and so created an appropriate vitriolic speech-in-character (Mt 23:1-36). The circumstances of the Markan and Lukan communities were different so they held that Jesus’ much shorter condemnation applied only to the scribes (Mk 12:37b-40; Lk 20:45-47).

Which version better conforms to the truth about Jesus? Evidently, what we can learn from the gospels, about Jesus and his teachings, are restricted to what the communities that produced the gospels want us to know.

What Paul preached was probably not entirely congruent with the teaching of Jesus. However the same accusation can probably be levelled at the “authors” of the canonical gospels.
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:13 am  Re: Does Apostle Paul Contradict Jesus? Reply

McCulloch wrote:
Jesus taught obedience to the Law, not the letter but a deeper understanding of the intent of the law. This is well illustrated in Matthew 23
Quote:

The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; therefore all that they tell you, do and observe,

He is not saying that the scribes' and the Pharisees' teachings were false and to be disregarded. The instructions from Moses, according to Jesus were to be kept. As he said in Matthew 5, "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets [...] Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Quote:

but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them. They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger. But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments. They love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues, and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called Rabbi by men. But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ. But the greatest among you shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.


Keep the law, but do so in the true spirit that it was intended, is the message from Jesus. Make an effort to understand the intent of the law and serve god with humility.

Quote:

But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation.
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, that is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple is obligated.’ You fools and blind men! Which is more important, the gold or the temple that sanctified the gold? And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, that is nothing, but whoever swears by the offering on it, he is obligated.’ You blind men, which is more important, the offering, or the altar that sanctifies the offering? Therefore, whoever swears by the altar, swears both by the altar and by everything on it. And whoever swears by the temple, swears both by the temple and by Him who dwells within it. And whoever swears by heaven, swears both by the throne of God and by Him who sits upon it.
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence. You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also.
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, and say, ‘If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?


This is a passage of scripture that we don't often see emphasized in Christianity today. Jesus is using very strong language here. This is obviously something that is very important to him. Anyone who would make the claim to be a disciple of Jesus makes their claim a sham, if they do not share Jesus obvious passion for the point he is trying to make. And what is the point? Hypocrisy. Jesus' strongest words of condemnation are for the religious hypocrites. The ones who make long prayers, who wear showy religious garb, who make money from religion, who only focuses on making converts but not justice, mercy and faithfulness, who have the appearance of being right but in actuality are not. Does any of this sound familiar?


Paul, on the other hand, taught grace, a free unmerited gift from God, and taught that the law was a curse (Galatians chapter 3). In Romans chapter five
Paul wrote:

For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.





Punchinello wrote:

This is my second post and I hope it doesn't cause an argument like my first post.


I disagree. I hope that is causes several well thought out and civil arguments. I hope that it does not cause strife and bickering.


As I recall, Jesus also said something to the effect that '(religionists) will come to me and say Lord, Lord, didn't we cast out demons in your name and heal the sick etc; and Jesus rebuked them and called them evil doers'....I am pressed for time, but If I have at least approximated this reference, who do we know that pretends to cast out demons(save people) and heal them in the name of Jesus but Christians? Did Jesus foresee the coming Christianity and was he implying that Christianity is evil?
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 9: Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:26 am  Re: Does Apostle Paul Contradict Jesus? Reply

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Punchinello wrote:
I ask this because my Fundie friend as well as some articles I found online said that there are no contradictions. From things I have read, it sure looks like there are contradictions.

I pointed out to my friend what Jesus said to the Lawyer who asked Him what does he need to do to be saved. Jesus said basically to Love God and treat others the way you want to be treated. "Do this and you shall live.". Paul, I believe, basically says that to be saved, you need to accept Jesus as your savior. Believe that and you'll get a golden ticket to heaven. My friend tried to harmonize what Jesus said by saying nobody can do what Jesus said to the Lawyer to do. We can't even come close. We're not going to give up all of our worldly posessions. I told him he was editorializing. He said he wasn't.

Here is Jesus telling the Lawyer what he needs to do to be saved and that's not a good enough answer?. Here is the Son of God telling the Lawyer exactly what he needs to do but some people say that's not good enough. Why would the Son of God give the Lawyer a half azzed answer or an incomplete answer?

This is my second post and I hope it doesn't cause an argument like my first post.


REQUEST FOR SUPPORTING EVIDENCE

This would depend on how one interprets Jesus words, and any relavent word of the Apostle Paul. Logically, as with any words spoken or recorded on paper, there are usually various interpretations possible. If you could provide references to teachings of Paul you feel the above is contradicting so that in depth analysis of content and context can be made, that would be helpful in the debate.

You say "Paul, I believe, basically says that to be saved, you need to accept Jesus as your savior. Believe that and you'll get a golden ticket to heaven. " I take it you are paraphasing, can you provide the reference passage(s), so we can debate this logically - Paul wrote a lot of in depth commentaries on this and many, many related topics. It would also be helpful if you also provide the reference for Jesus' words under debate as well, since the gospel accounts often vary in content.

I think this is a very interesting topic but am making a request that you "support your claims with evidence", otherwise its like answering someone that asks "Do you think this woman looks like my wife?" without providing any proof of what your wife looks like.

Thank you
JW


I think this link spells out the contradictions well.

http://www.truthseekers.co.za/content/view/84/59/
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Malachi-Zede-El Offline

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 10: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:28 pm  Re: Does Apostle Paul Contradict Jesus? Reply

Punchinello wrote:
I ask this because my Fundie friend as well as some articles I found online said that there are no contradictions. From things I have read, it sure looks like there are contradictions.

I pointed out to my friend what Jesus said to the Lawyer who asked Him what does he need to do to be saved. Jesus said basically to Love God and treat others the way you want to be treated. "Do this and you shall live.". Paul, I believe, basically says that to be saved, you need to accept Jesus as your savior. Believe that and you'll get a golden ticket to heaven. My friend tried to harmonize what Jesus said by saying nobody can do what Jesus said to the Lawyer to do. We can't even come close. We're not going to give up all of our worldly posessions. I told him he was editorializing. He said he wasn't.

Here is Jesus telling the Lawyer what he needs to do to be saved and that's not a good enough answer?. Here is the Son of God telling the Lawyer exactly what he needs to do but some people say that's not good enough. Why would the Son of God give the Lawyer a half azzed answer or an incomplete answer?

This is my second post and I hope it doesn't cause an argument like my first post.



Not only are their Contradiction in paul teaching He went against the teaching of law of mosee that jesus taught .
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