Human burial

[cholland]

http://news.yahoo.com/far-more-troops-a ... 00554.html

"The landfill dumping was concealed from families who had authorized the military to dispose of the remains in a dignified and respectful manner."

(1) From a secular worldview, what is a "dignified and respectful" disposal of human remains? Was there anything "wrong" with what the Air Force did?

(2) Why do humans host funerals and bury our dead when it is unnatural?

[JoeyKnothead]

From the OP:

(1) From a secular worldview, what is a "dignified and respectful" disposal of human remains?

Variable. I prefer cremation.

Was there anything "wrong" with what the Air Force did?

Yes. They indicated they'd be burying folks, but didn't.

(2) Why do humans host funerals and bury our dead when it is unnatural?

What humans do is, by definition, natural.

[Adamoriens]

http://news.yahoo.com/far-more-troops-a ... 00554.html

"The landfill dumping was concealed from families who had authorized the military to dispose of the remains in a dignified and respectful manner."

(1) From a secular worldview, what is a "dignified and respectful" disposal of human remains? Was there anything "wrong" with what the Air Force did?

(2) Why do humans host funerals and bury our dead when it is unnatural?

1. On theistic and secular worldviews alike, corpses are not the person we knew in life, so there's nothing different there. It's hard to say what we "ought" to do with corpses; some prefer to commemorate with a marked grave, others want their ashes to be dumped out of airplanes, and still others want to be mummified and stuck into a tomb with all their servants.

2. It's rather mysterious. I read somewhere that scientists have found Neanderthal graves.

[Darias]

It's the implication that human beings are trash that bothers me. The way people are buried should be up to themselves (before they die of course) and their families. A human corpse once was a being that lived, loved, and cared. It should be treated with respect in ways that the relatives of the deceased feel best.

Sure sure, dust to dust - but that was once someone's dad -- and it should not end up in the same place as half-eaten happy-meals, plastics, and used-diapers.

1. In my secular opinion what the Air Force did was unethical, dishonest, and disrespectful.

2. Human burial is a widespread practice of saying goodbye to loved ones, there are many other ways of doing it; throwing them in a heap of trash is not one of them. What do you mean by "natural?" We're not just gonna leave our kin where they fall; we are human beings with human cultures -- that's natural, but the way you frame the term suggests that natural = the behavior of wolves. I think that's oversimplifying things a bit.

3. Dumping remains in a landfill is not a dignified or respectful process in any cultural context that I'm aware of. That doesn't mean I claim that some deity upstairs says it's a breach of some moral absolute to do so -- and it doesn't mean "whatever, it doesn't matter; everything is okay" either.

[cholland]

From the OP:

(1) From a secular worldview, what is a "dignified and respectful" disposal of human remains?

Variable. I prefer cremation.

Was there anything "wrong" with what the Air Force did?

Yes. They indicated they'd be burying folks, but didn't.

(2) Why do humans host funerals and bury our dead when it is unnatural?

What humans do is, by definition, natural.

1. No, they indicated they would dispose of the remains in a "dignified and respectful" manner which you indicated was variable.

2. Natural: from nature; not artificial or involving anything made or caused by people.

http://news.yahoo.com/far-more-troops-a ... 00554.html

"The landfill dumping was concealed from families who had authorized the military to dispose of the remains in a dignified and respectful manner."

(1) From a secular worldview, what is a "dignified and respectful" disposal of human remains? Was there anything "wrong" with what the Air Force did?

(2) Why do humans host funerals and bury our dead when it is unnatural?

1. On theistic and secular worldviews alike, corpses are not the person we knew in life, so there's nothing different there. It's hard to say what we "ought" to do with corpses; some prefer to commemorate with a marked grave, others want their ashes to be dumped out of airplanes, and still others want to be mummified and stuck into a tomb with all their servants.

2. It's rather mysterious. I read somewhere that scientists have found Neanderthal graves.

1. But was what the Air Force did wrong?

2. Ok.

It's the implication that human beings are trash that bothers me. The way people are buried should be up to themselves (before they die of course) and their families. A human corpse once was a being that lived, loved, and cared. It should be treated with respect in ways that the relatives of the deceased feel best.

Sure sure, dust to dust - but that was once someone's dad -- and it should not end up in the same place as half-eaten happy-meals, plastics, and used-diapers.

1. In my secular opinion what the Air Force did was unethical, dishonest, and disrespectful.

2. Human burial is a widespread practice of saying goodbye to loved ones, there are many other ways of doing it; throwing them in a heap of trash is not one of them. What do you mean by "natural?" We're not just gonna leave our kin where they fall; we are human beings with human cultures -- that's natural, but the way you frame the term suggests that natural = the behavior of wolves. I think that's oversimplifying things a bit.

3. Dumping remains in a landfill is not a dignified or respectful process in any cultural context that I'm aware of. That doesn't mean I claim that some deity upstairs says it's a breach of some moral absolute to do so -- and it doesn't mean "whatever, it doesn't matter; everything is okay" either.

1. Why was it unethical, dishonest, and disrespectful?

2. See definition above. Meaning we see various other ways of dealing with dead corpses from just leaving them for the vultures to eating them like lions. Would it be wrong to follow nature? Why do we have a funeral and bury our dead?

3. From the OP: From a secular worldview, what is a "dignified and respectful" disposal of human remains? And there have been cultures in the past who have eaten their enemy after battle. Not to mention the Nazis thought the way they were disposing of the Jews was right.

[Darias]

1. Why was it unethical, dishonest, and disrespectful?

2. See definition above. Meaning we see various other ways of dealing with dead corpses from just leaving them for the vultures to eating them like lions. Would it be wrong to follow nature? Why do we have a funeral and bury our dead?

3. From the OP: From a secular worldview, what is a "dignified and respectful" disposal of human remains? And there have been cultures in the past who have eaten their enemy after battle. Not to mention the Nazis thought the way they were disposing of the Jews was right.

1. The Air-force claimed they were disposing of the bodies in a respectful manner. According to the culture we live in, it was not. Because they lied, it was dishonest and unethical on their part.

2. We bury our dead because that is the predominant "goodbye" custom of human beings. One reason why we do this today is perhaps because it was a sanitary and respectful way of saying "goodbye," rather than leaving them to vultures as if to say that they didn't matter anymore. In any case, throwing them to the lions or piling them up in box cars is unheard of today and unethical by that standard - a standard that has evolved over thousands of years.

3. Arguably my views are biased being brought up in a modern, secular culture -- I suppose if I were an ancient Mayan Id have no problem with kicking a corpse down a flight of stairs -- beings it would be the only thing I would have ever known. But just because cultural moral customs change over time does not mean anything goes today. Of course, I have no higher moral order to appeal to outside my own convictions, which I believe are better than that of Nazi foot-soldiers (who were predominantly Protestant and Catholic). And I believe my convictions are better than that of the Air-force.

Tell me, assuming you are, are you offended by what happened because the Bible says such and such? Or are you offended because of the whole nature of it.

As I said, there's nothing morally wrong with burial, but there's something unethical about leaving remains to dwell in a landfill.

1. It equates human beings with trash

2. It leaves no spot for the family to pay their respects (if they didn't want their loved-ones ashes scattered).

3. Their acts betrayed public trust, many of whom are Christians who support the concept of burying their dead in a place that isn't meant for trash.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 5:

1. No, they indicated they would dispose of the remains in a "dignified and respectful" manner which you indicated was variable.

I'll retract up to, but not all inclusive to, what Darias says...

2. We bury our dead because that is the predominant "goodbye" custom of human beings.

There was a reasonable expectation that burial would be performed.

2. Natural: from nature; not artificial or involving anything made or caused by people.

What is a part of nature can't help but be natural.

[David 2.0]

I think that the air force dropped the ball on this one.

I would imagine that "dignified and respectful" in this context means no surprises.
As far as I know there is no landfill package at your local morgue.

Burial/cremation procedures are pretty well established.
The air forces actions seem to fall outside of the norm. (For America)


Personally I want a pyramid.

[bluethread]

What humans do is, by definition, natural.

One rabbinic burial practice, which appears to be the case with the burial of Yeshua, lays the body to rest within 24hrs wrapped with spices to limit the the effects of decomposition to the tomb. A year later the bones are gathers and placed in a box as long as a human femur. The box is then placed with the boxes of others along the wall of the tomb.

[JoeyKnothead]

What humans do is, by definition, natural.

One rabbinic burial practice, which appears to be the case with the burial of Yeshua, lays the body to rest within 24hrs wrapped with spices to limit the the effects of decomposition to the tomb. A year later the bones are gathers and placed in a box as long as a human femur. The box is then placed with the boxes of others along the wall of the tomb.

I didn't say it couldn't be odder'n all get out.