Is Hellfire A Bible Teaching

[Alter2Ego]

[font=Verdana]The teaching of hellfire is commonplace in Christendom and non-Christian religions. This teaching defames the Creator and portrays him as a sadist who tortures people in flames of fire for all eternity"as punishment for wrongdoing committed during the relatively brief human lifespan. The hellfire dogma was brought into Christianity by the Roman Catholics who copied it from pagan religions. (Pagans are those who do not worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible.)

The Bible makes it clear as to how God views the ritual burning of people. Jehovah ended up rejecting the ancient Israelites after they got involved with pagan worship, which included burning their children to death.

"And they [the Israelites/sons of Judah] have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that HAD NOT COME UP INTO MY HEART." (Jeremiah 7:31)


"{58} And they kept offending him with their high places, and with their graven images they kept inciting him to jealousy. {59} God heard and got to be furious, and he condemned Israel very much. {60} And he finally forsook the tabernacle of Shiloh, the tent in which he resided among earthling men." (Psalms 78:58-60)


The scriptures indicate that hell is nothing more than mankinds common grave. Proof of this is provided by a verse of scripture in the Bible, which no hellfire-believing Christian can explain away. Im referring to the scripture that says Jesus Christ--the epitome of a perfect, sinless, and obedient man--died and went to hell.

"{21} In fact, to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving you a model for you to follow his steps closely. {22} He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth." (1 Peter 2:21-22)


"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:31--King James Version)


NOTE #1: The Bible uses the word "fire" symbolically to indicate permanent death or permanent destruction.

NOTE #2: the words "Hell" and "Hades" and "Pit" are synonyms that mean THE GRAVE.

NOTE #3: "High Places" as used in the scriptures that I quote in this thread refer to the worship of the false gods.


DEBATE QUESTIONS:
1. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did Jehovah command the ancient Israelites to burn anyone in the fire?

2. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did the burning of people come to God's heart?

3. According to Jeremiah 7:31 and Psalms 78:58-59, did the ancient Israelites offend God by getting involved with false worship in their "HIGH PLACES", which included burning people to death?

4. According to those who teach hellfire torment, hell is a place for people who are wicked and sinful. If Hellfire is for wicked people, why did Jesus spend three days in hell--considering that it says at 1 Peter 2:22 that he did not commit any sin?

5. Jesus obeyed Jehovah and died a slow and torturous death for mankind. Hadn't he suffered enough? He'd suffered terribly--because of being obedient to his Heavenly Father. So why was he being punished again with burning hellfire? What's the logic for punishing him all over again?

6. Recall that after Jesus' resurrection, he appeared and spoke to several of his faithful apostles on different occasions before he returned to heaven. Why is it that Jesus made no mention to any of his apostles--after his resurrection--that he went to hell where he burned for three days?

7. When people are being tortured in hellfire, wouldn't they have to KNOW or be conscious/aware of the fact that they are being burned? I mean to say, what's the point of punishing people in hell if they aren't even aware?

8. Those who believe in eternal torment say that the person's soul is being burned forever. What is the soul? Is it something separate from the person's body? Are animals souls also or is this only for humans?[/font]

[Shermana]

Jesus always begins his parables with it being stated somewhere that it's a parable.

The story of the Rich man and Lazarus has no such introduction as a parable.

[JoeyKnothead]

From the OP:

...
NOTE #1: The Bible uses the word "fire" symbolically to indicate permanent death or permanent destruction.

Says who?

NOTE #2: the words "Hell" and "Hades" and "Pit" are synonyms that mean THE GRAVE.

Says who?

NOTE #3: "High Places" as used in the scriptures that I quote in this thread refer to the worship of the false gods.

Says who?

1. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did Jehovah command the ancient Israelites to burn anyone in the fire?

They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire--something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.

It would seem not.

2. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did the burning of people come to God's heart?

Being unable to determine this god has a heart, the question is at present unanswerable.

3. According to Jeremiah 7:31 and Psalms 78:58-59, did the ancient Israelites offend God by getting involved with false worship in their "HIGH PLACES", which included burning people to death?

58 For they provoked him to anger with their high places; they moved him to jealousy with their idols.
59 When God heard, he was full of wrath, and he utterly rejected Israel.

If the tale be believed, this would seem the case.

4. According to those who teach hellfire torment, hell is a place for people who are wicked and sinful. If Hellfire is for wicked people, why did Jesus spend three days in hell--considering that it says at 1 Peter 2:22 that he did not commit any sin?

He was wicked and sinful, but Peter had it all wrong.

5. Jesus obeyed Jehovah and died a slow and torturous death for mankind. Hadn't he suffered enough?

'Parently not.

He'd suffered terribly--because of being obedient to his Heavenly Father. So why was he being punished again with burning hellfire?

He was wicked and sinful, from up there at question 4.

What's the logic for punishing him all over again?

Who needs logic when you have a god involved?

6. Recall that after Jesus' resurrection, he appeared and spoke to several of his faithful apostles on different occasions before he returned to heaven. Why is it that Jesus made no mention to any of his apostles--after his resurrection--that he went to hell where he burned for three days?

He was 'shamed about it?

7. When people are being tortured in hellfire, wouldn't they have to KNOW or be conscious/aware of the fact that they are being burned? I mean to say, what's the point of punishing people in hell if they aren't even aware?

It would seem that being aware of it'd be part of the deal.

8. Those who believe in eternal torment say that the person's soul is being burned forever. What is the soul?

The part of the body that gets all that tormenting done to it. Other'n that, I have no clue.

Is it something separate from the person's body?

It would seem so, if one accepts myth-one.com's take on the issue, which I do from a purely theological standpoint.

Are animals souls also or is this only for humans?

Humans are animals.

[McCulloch]

Moderator Action

Moved to Theology, Doctrine and Dogma. This seems to be a topic more about what is the authentic Christian teaching than about Christian Apologetics.

The purpose of this subforum is to have a place to freely engage in debates on Christian theology with the basic assumption that the Bible can be used as a primary reference without the need to defend its authority. Responses to topics with "but first you have to prove that the Bible is true" is not allowed here.

[Alter2Ego]

Jesus always begins his parables with it being stated somewhere that it's a parable.

The story of the Rich man and Lazarus has no such introduction as a parable.

[font=Verdana]ALTER2EGO -to- SHERMANA:
It's not necessary for it to be introduced as a parable. All that's required is that one examines the context--the surrounding verses and chapters--and it becomes clear that the Rich man and Lazarus story was not a literal event. Also, keep in mind what the Bible says about Jesus' method of teaching. It says Jesus ALWAYS taught by means of illustrations. Notice this point in the scripture quoted directly below, and keep your eyes on the words in bold print.

"{33} Another illustration he [Jesus] spoke to them: 'The kingdom of the heavens is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three large measures of flour, until the whole mass was fermented.' {34} All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds by illustrations. Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them;" (Matthew 13:33-34)


Likewise, the presentation that Jesus gave at Luke 16:19-31 concerning the Rich Man and Lazarus was a parable aka an illustration that he used while reprimanding the Pharisees who were sneering at him. Read further back at Luke 16:14-15, just a few verses up from where you will find the story about the Rich Man and Lazarus, and you will see who Jesus was applying that illustration to. He was applying it to the Pharisees.

The Rich Man represented the Pharisees and Lazarus represented the common people. Let's examine the context and see clearly who was Jesus speaking to? We are told:

"Now the Pharisees, who were money lovers, were listening to all these things, and they began to sneer at him." (Luke 16:14)

Since Jesus spoke in the hearing of the Pharisees--right after they sneered at him--this illustration was evidently directed at them. As a class they were like the rich man. They loved money, as well as prominence and flattering titles. (See confirmation of this at Matthew 23:5-7)


Remember, the Pharisees looked down on others, especially on tax collectors, harlots, and others having the reputation of being sinners. (See confirmation of this at Luke 18:11-12) That's why in the parable the beggar Lazarus represents those humble persons whom the Pharisees despised but who repented and became followers of Jesus Christ--whereas the Pharisees succeeded in having Jesus put to death.[/font]

[Yahu]

[font=Verdana]The teaching of hellfire is commonplace in Christendom and non-Christian religions. This teaching defames the Creator and portrays him as a sadist who tortures people in flames of fire for all eternity"as punishment for wrongdoing committed during the relatively brief human lifespan. The hellfire dogma was brought into Christianity by the Roman Catholics who copied it from pagan religions. (Pagans are those who do not worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible.)

The Bible makes it clear as to how God views the ritual burning of people. Jehovah ended up rejecting the ancient Israelites after they got involved with pagan worship, which included burning their children to death.

"And they [the Israelites/sons of Judah] have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that HAD NOT COME UP INTO MY HEART." (Jeremiah 7:31)


"{58} And they kept offending him with their high places, and with their graven images they kept inciting him to jealousy. {59} God heard and got to be furious, and he condemned Israel very much. {60} And he finally forsook the tabernacle of Shiloh, the tent in which he resided among earthling men." (Psalms 78:58-60)


The scriptures indicate that hell is nothing more than mankinds common grave. Proof of this is provided by a verse of scripture in the Bible, which no hellfire-believing Christian can explain away. Im referring to the scripture that says Jesus Christ--the epitome of a perfect, sinless, and obedient man--died and went to hell.

"{21} In fact, to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving you a model for you to follow his steps closely. {22} He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth." (1 Peter 2:21-22)


"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:31--King James Version)


NOTE #1: The Bible uses the word "fire" symbolically to indicate permanent death or permanent destruction.

NOTE #2: the words "Hell" and "Hades" and "Pit" are synonyms that mean THE GRAVE.

NOTE #3: "High Places" as used in the scriptures that I quote in this thread refer to the worship of the false gods.


DEBATE QUESTIONS:
1. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did Jehovah command the ancient Israelites to burn anyone in the fire?

2. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did the burning of people come to God's heart?

3. According to Jeremiah 7:31 and Psalms 78:58-59, did the ancient Israelites offend God by getting involved with false worship in their "HIGH PLACES", which included burning people to death?

4. According to those who teach hellfire torment, hell is a place for people who are wicked and sinful. If Hellfire is for wicked people, why did Jesus spend three days in hell--considering that it says at 1 Peter 2:22 that he did not commit any sin?

5. Jesus obeyed Jehovah and died a slow and torturous death for mankind. Hadn't he suffered enough? He'd suffered terribly--because of being obedient to his Heavenly Father. So why was he being punished again with burning hellfire? What's the logic for punishing him all over again?

6. Recall that after Jesus' resurrection, he appeared and spoke to several of his faithful apostles on different occasions before he returned to heaven. Why is it that Jesus made no mention to any of his apostles--after his resurrection--that he went to hell where he burned for three days?

7. When people are being tortured in hellfire, wouldn't they have to KNOW or be conscious/aware of the fact that they are being burned? I mean to say, what's the point of punishing people in hell if they aren't even aware?

8. Those who believe in eternal torment say that the person's soul is being burned forever. What is the soul? Is it something separate from the person's body? Are animals souls also or is this only for humans?[/font]

LOL, Jehovah's witness non-sense doctrine!

You don't understand the ancient paganism. Yes Tophet, the valley of Hinnom was a place of passing children through the fires to Molech ('shameful king'). Isa 57 calls that Molech worship as 'debasing thyself unto hell' and directly ties his worship to the ruler of hell.

The grove that was above the valley was the location of the grove to Baal/Ashtoreth outside Jerusalem. The children conceived in the ritualistic sexual worship in the groves were sacrificed to Molech in the valley below. Later when the paganism was thrown out, the location of the alter of Baal was turned into a public toilet to desecrate the pagan holy place. The valley was turned into the trash dump and sewage runoff. It was a place to burn the trash and desecrate the valley as well. That valley was renamed Gehenna and was used as a picture of hell itself for those stupid enough to worship Molech.

It was the killing of the innocent in the fires that Yah opposed, not the destruction of the guilty!

By the way, Jehovah is a germanized mistranslation of the Hebrew name of God. The Hebrew is YHVH so Yahuvah or Yahweh are the accepted forms of the name. There is no 'J' in Hebrew and the vowel patter used in Jehovah is invalid. Now the Hebrew for Elijah was EliYahu meaning 'mighty (in) Yahu'. The paleo-hebrew of YHVH means 'arm/hand, behold, nail, behold' in the pictographical meaning. In other words 'behold the nail [pierced] hands'. It is a direct reference to Yeshua or Yahushua which means either 'he saves' or 'Yah our savior'.

If you want to know the ancient Hebrew understanding of Sheol, you have to read the literature of the day. I suggest reading the Book of Enoch. It is directly quoted by Jude and reference by Peter. It was a common book in the synagogues of that time period as was proved by many copies being found with the dead sea scrolls.

The Greek concept of Hades which is used in the New Testament when Gehenna isn't, is NOT just 'the grave' but the residence of the spirits of the dead just like Sheol was to the Hebrews of the time.

The JW doctrine of hell being just 'the grave' is a recruiting tool to lead people into that cult IMO. They tend to focus on just a few doctrines to entice the ignorant into their midst. Hell is just a realm of the spirits of the dead outside of Yah's domain. It is NOT eternal judgement but a place of waiting until Yah's judgement. The torment in hell now is just the ruling spirits tormenting lesser spirits into submission to them and has nothing to do with Yah's judgment.

[Yahu]

From the OP:

NOTE #3: "High Places" as used in the scriptures that I quote in this thread refer to the worship of the false gods.

Says who?

Actually she was right in this ONE case. The High Places were the places that the pagans worshiped. Give her credit for at least 1 correct statement in the OP.

For example Balaak took Balaam up to 3 different High Places to the Baalim (plural for Baal) to curse the children of Israel. One was to Baal-peor and another at Mt Pisgah to the 'fields of Zophim'. Pisgah is a sexual reference to an act with 'mother earth' while Zophim means 'watcher' a term for the fallen angels that crossed with daughters of men in Gen 6, the source of the pagan gods, demonic spirits. Balaak took Baalim to 3 different high places each dedicated to a different pagan deity to get him to curse Israel.

There are numerous references to the paganism on the high places all over the Old Testament. That ancient paganism has been an area of study of mine for many years. I started researching it after I came up against a coven lead by a high priestess of one of those goddesses back in 1985.

[Yahu]

DEBATE QUESTIONS:
1. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did Jehovah command the ancient Israelites to burn anyone in the fire?

2. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did the burning of people come to God's heart?

Le 10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.
Le 10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.



Le 20:14 And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.

Le 21:9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.


Yah burned people with fire Himself and ordered it done for those that violated certain laws! Lets not forget the destruction of the city of Sodom.

[Alter2Ego]

[font=Verdana]JOEY KNOTHEAD

NOTE #1: The Bible uses the word "fire" symbolically to indicate permanent death or permanent destruction.

Says who?

I will address your answers to the questions in which you gave reasonable responses. I won't address those for which you gave outrageous responses. My responses will be in three separate posts since this will take time to explain.


ALTER2EGO:
In terms of my earlier statement that when the Bible uses the word "fire" in a symbolic manner, it's in reference to permanent destruction or permanent death, this conclusion is based upon several scriptures. Below are a couple of scriptural examples.

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." (Revelation 20:14 -- KJV)


Now, explain to this forum how literal death and hell (the grave) could possibly be cast into a lake of fire. In reality, Revelation 20:14 is telling us that death and hell (the grave) will be permanently destroyed. This is made even clearer one chapter later in the same book of Revelation.

"And he [God] will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away." (Revelation 21:4)


JOEY KNOTHEAD

NOTE #2: the words "Hell" and "Hades" and "Pit" are synonyms that mean THE GRAVE.

Says who?

ALTER2EGO:
The proper sense of the original-language word for "hell" is "sheol." This term is translated "grave" and "pit" in various Bible translations and is never associated with life, activity, or torment. Below are a few Bible translations of the word "hell" aka "sheol" aka "grave" taken from a verse of scripture from Psalms chapter 6.

[center]VARIOUS TRANSLATIONS OF PSALMS 6:5[/center]

New International Version
No one remembers you when he is dead. Who praises you from the grave?


King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?


New American Standard Bible
For there is no mention of You in death; In Sheol who will give You thanks?


Darby Bible Translation
For in death there is no remembrance of thee; in Sheol who shall give thanks unto thee?


Douay-Rheims Bible
For there is no one in death, that is mindful of thee: and who shall confess to thee in hell?


Unidentified Bible Translation
For in death there is no commemorating of you; in hell who shall celebrate your praise?[/font]

[Alter2Ego]

[font=Verdana]JOEY KNOTHEAD

NOTE #3: "High Places" as used in the scriptures that I quote in this thread refer to the worship of the false gods.

Says who?

ALTER2EGO:
I will let the Bible answer your question by giving you several Bible translations. The ancient Israelites involved themselves in idolatry--the worship of Baal, a false pagan god. This false worship involved burning their children to death. This time, we will go to Jeremiah 19:5.

[center]VARIOUS TRANSLATIONS OF JEREMIAH 19:5[/center]

New International Version
They have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as offerings to Baal--something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.


King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:


GOD'S WORD Translation
They have built worship sites to burn their children as sacrifices to Baal. I didn't ask them or command them to do this. It never entered my mind.


New Living Translation
They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed my mind to command such a thing!


JOEY KNOTHEAD

1. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did Jehovah command the ancient Israelites to burn anyone in the fire?

They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire--something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.

It would seem not.

ALTER2EGO:
As you've noted by use of your own Bible translation, the scripture indicate Jehovah did not command the ancient Israelites to burn their children in fire.[/font]