I am seriously questioning my atheism

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Haven

I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #1

Post by Haven »

Disclaimer: This post may be out of place on the Christianity and Apologetics forum (even though it does have some relation to Christianity), if it is, I apologize and ask that it be moved to a more appropriate place on the forum. However, I do intend this thread to be a discussion, if not a debate, so I felt this was the best place for it.

As many of you know, I am an ex-evangelical Christian and a current atheist. By "atheist," I mean I lack belief in god(s) of any kind, although I do not assert that there are definitely no gods. Since departing from Christianity, everything has made so much more sense: an eternal Universe (defined as the totality of natural existence) explained existence, evolution explained the diversity of life on earth, the absence of god(s) explained the problems of evil, inconsistent revelation, and so on.

However, there is one thing that I have been unable to account for under atheism: morality. Atheists almost invariably state that moral values and duties are not objective facts, but are simply subjective statements of preference and have no ontological value. That is, of course, until we are presented with cases of true evil, such as the Holocaust, the atrocities of Pol Pot, or the horrible psychopathic serial killings of individuals like Jeffery Dahmer. Then we as atheists tacitly appeal to objective moral values and duties, saying that individuals who commit should be severely punished (even executed) for doing "evil," saying that they "knew right from wrong." But if right and wrong are simply statements of subjective opinion, then how can we say that others knew "right from wrong" and are accountable for their actions? If relativism is true, they simply had differing opinions from the majority of human beings. However, it seems obvious to me (and to the vast majority of others, theist and atheist alike) that this is absurd -- the monsters who carried out the aforementioned acts really, objectively did evil.

Given this, the only reasonable conclusion is that moral facts and imperatives exist.

However, atheism appears to offer no framework for moral facts. Because of this, a few weeks ago, I started up a discussion on Wielenbergian moral realism, which states that objective moral values are simply "brute facts" that exist without any explanation. However, others rightly pointed out that the existence of "brute facts" is ontologically problematic and that the best explanation (on atheism) is that morality is simply subjective. Additionally, even if atheistic moral facts existed, the Humeian problem of deriving an "ought" from an "is" would preclude them from acting as moral imperatives; commands which human beings are obligated to follow.

In light of these airtight logical objections to atheistic moral realism, I was forced to abandon my position on moral facts and tentatively adopt moral relativism. However, relativism still seems problematic. After all, if morality is subjective, no one person can accuse another of failing to recognize the difference between "right and wrong," however, it is obvious to me (and, I would suspect, to other atheists as well) that right or wrong really objectively (not subjectively) exist.

The only rational conclusion I can seem to come up with is that there is a (are) transcendent moral lawgiver(s) who both grounds moral facts and issues binding moral commands on all humanity; i.e., God(s). This echoes evangelical Christian philosopher William Lane Craig's moral argument, which syllogism reads:
WLC wrote:Premise 1: If God does not exist, then objective moral values and duties do not exist.
Premise 2: Objective moral values and duties do exist
Conclusion: Therefore, God exists
Premises 1 and 2 seem bulletproof -- (1) was demonstrated earlier in this post, leaving (2) as the only premise to attack. However, (2) seems to be as obvious as a hand in front of my face. The conclusion necessarily follows from (1) and (2), so is there any rational reason for me to reject the conclusion of the argument?

Remember, I am no believer of any kind. I am a staunch, educated, informed atheist, and I am well aware of the philosophical arguments against God(s), such as the problem of evil, the dysteleological argument, the problem of omniscience, etc. I'm also well aware of the plentiful empirical evidence against the existence of God(s), for instance, evolution, mind-body physicalism, etc. These are the reasons I reconverted from Christianity in the first place. However, I don't see way around this problem other than to accept either that our apparently obvious sense of moral facts is somehow mistaken, or that (a) theistic being(s) exist.

Debate question: Are my issues with atheism legitimate? Can atheism provide a coherent moral framework other than nihilism, relativism, or subjectivism? Do these problems really present evidence for theism? Is William Lane Craig right? Is this a real problem for atheism, or are my (our) emotions simply overriding my (our) rationality?

Feel free to present evidence for or against atheism, Christianity, or any religious or nonreligious perspective in this thread.

spayne

Post #195

Post by spayne »

Haven wrote:
spayne wrote: I wasn't addressing the Euthyphro dilemma in my response. However, I do think that the Bible addresses/resolves this. In the Bible morality is not defined by God's commands; but rather it is rooted in God's nature and character of absolute goodness and holiness. This identity of holiness then expresses itself through God's commands to present a moral order that is objectively good (because its source is objectively good). The goodness of God is understood to be a foundation of his character, not simply that God is equal to or is being compared in some way to what good is. God simply IS good.
I agree that this concept -- morality rooted in the character of a necessary being -- gets around the Euthyphro dilemma. However, the god of the Bible is far from "objectively good," in fact, he can be considered monstrously evil. All it takes is one look at the Old Testament to see that.
Hmmm...I look at the Old Testament and I see a God who is loving and merciful, but also slow to anger and committed to ending injustice and brutality. A God who is only loving but who will not or can not uphold justice and firmly establish control over evil is insincere and ineffectual, don't you think?

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Post #196

Post by Knight »

Janx wrote:Indeed. A desire that, if met, breaks the social contract will be deemed immoral. For example a desire to kill other members of a society that sees murder as immoral will result in immoral action if fulfilled.
Are you suggesting that morality is predicated on the majority opinion of a society?
Janx wrote:I think we can do good for no reason but that would make the action irrational :D

In a sense I agree, but it takes one less step to gain personal validation from charity than seeking approval.
Is an extra step relevant?
Janx wrote:We ought live because we want to live.
Are you using "ought to" as synonymous with "should" or "have a duty to"? If so, what you said doesn't follow. If not, your understanding of "ought" isn't relevant to a discussion about morality and really is only going to cause confusion.
Janx wrote:We empathize as we breathe, it's a natural reflex - we are aware of other people's moods, emotions, body language, even iris dilation. We "see" that other people are like us. Empathy is not a choice.
That's a broad universal statement. How can you justify it?
Janx wrote:If there is a reason for why we behave a certain way how is that not truth?
Explaining why we behave as we do does not mean that we ought to do what we do.

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Post #197

Post by Fuzzy Dunlop »

spayne wrote:I wasn't addressing the Euthyphro dilemma in my response. However, I do think that the Bible addresses/resolves this. In the Bible morality is not defined by God's commands; but rather it is rooted in God's nature and character of absolute goodness and holiness. This identity of holiness then expresses itself through God's commands to present a moral order that is objectively good (because its source is objectively good). The goodness of God is understood to be a foundation of his character, not simply that God is equal to or is being compared in some way to what good is. God simply IS good. Finally, the Bible says that we are made in his image and that we have his word written in our hearts. The conclusion therefore is that humans have the moral intuition to recognize his laws as being objectively good.
How is this different from the second horn of the dilemma?

When you say:
"This identity of holiness then expresses itself through God's commands to present a moral order that is objectively good (because its source is objectively good)"

It seems equivalent, based on your terminology, to:

"This identity of holiness then expresses itself through God's commands to present a moral order that is objectively good (because its source is God)"

But I'm confused because you're talking about holiness, which is a term I think you would need to define.

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Post #198

Post by JoeyKnothead »

From Post 195:
spayne wrote: Hmmm...I look at the Old Testament and I see a God who is loving and merciful, but also slow to anger and committed to ending injustice and brutality.
Given the common declaration that this god is infinite in regards to time, I propose that any action he may take may be considered both "slow" and "fast". That's the beauty of the god concept - it's all things to all people.
spayne wrote: A God who is only loving but who will not or can not uphold justice and firmly establish control over evil is insincere and ineffectual, don't you think?
Ask the starving, the prayerful, the lacking.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

spayne

Post #199

Post by spayne »

JoeyKnothead wrote:From Post 195:
JoeyKnothead wrote: Given the common declaration that this god is infinite in regards to time, I propose that any action he may take may be considered both "slow" and "fast". That's the beauty of the god concept - it's all things to all people.
That's an acceptable proposition. But I also think that the beauty of God is that he is extremely personal, and so he speaks to us in terms we will understand. So when he says slow he means slow.
JoeyKnothead wrote: Ask the starving, the prayerful, the lacking.
Yes, I'm sure it's no coincidence that the starving, the prayerful and the lacking understand the goodness of God.

spayne

Post #200

Post by spayne »

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:
spayne wrote:I wasn't addressing the Euthyphro dilemma in my response. However, I do think that the Bible addresses/resolves this. In the Bible morality is not defined by God's commands; but rather it is rooted in God's nature and character of absolute goodness and holiness. This identity of holiness then expresses itself through God's commands to present a moral order that is objectively good (because its source is objectively good). The goodness of God is understood to be a foundation of his character, not simply that God is equal to or is being compared in some way to what good is. God simply IS good. Finally, the Bible says that we are made in his image and that we have his word written in our hearts. The conclusion therefore is that humans have the moral intuition to recognize his laws as being objectively good.
How is this different from the second horn of the dilemma?

When you say:
"This identity of holiness then expresses itself through God's commands to present a moral order that is objectively good (because its source is objectively good)"

It seems equivalent, based on your terminology, to:

"This identity of holiness then expresses itself through God's commands to present a moral order that is objectively good (because its source is God)"

But I'm confused because you're talking about holiness, which is a term I think you would need to define.
I think the Christian would understand the holiness of God to mean that he is transcendentally separate or set apart; that there is nothing or no one like him. And this would include his absolute moral purity. He is literally incapable of doing anything but good.

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Post #201

Post by Fuzzy Dunlop »

spayne wrote:He is literally incapable of doing anything but good.
...with good being defined as what God is. Ok, so again, how is this different from the second horn of the dilemma? There's some subtlety here that I'm missing, I think.

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Post #202

Post by TheJackelantern »

Hey Jackelentern,
I just thought I would point out that your response seems to prove what I am saying here.
Umm no it doesn't..

Your modus operandi on this board has been continually to judge Christians for their beliefs in ways that are often harsh, disrespectful, rude, stereotypical, and mean.
I don't judge Christians for their beliefs, I judge only the beliefs in question. Nor have I ever stated that what I've said magically applies to all Christians... Make sure you know what I am criticizing because it seems you are confused between criticizing a belief vs the person with the belief. And and in worst case here, you are speaking from a position of hypocrisy.. :/
But yet, all the while, you preach a philosophy of tolerance and peace. Where is the morality in that if you are such a good atheist?
Atheists can be just as bad... Often I have to stand up for you Christians and your religion when some Atheist thinks it should be banned and persecuted... Tolerance btw deals with practical tolerance. I only need respect a certain belief system enough not to seek to ban it, commit violence against those who have it ect. There is nothing wrong with challenging those beliefs in a debate, and do remember that you are on a debating forum to which is a proper venue for this.. And nor am I perfect model, or a perfect person.
I never stated that atheists don't know what morality is or that Christianity somehow has ownership of some kind of moral order.
That's not the impression I got, but ok.. At least that is clear then and we can move on and accept that. :)

I simply said that Christianity, as opposed to making this a philosophical issue, makes it personal. Blessings to you today.
You do realize that is often used as an insult and false argument, but if you were actually sincere, then that is indeed a nice thing to do.. I think anyone that is sincere about being morally nice to each other will express such on a personal level..

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Post #203

Post by arian »

Artie wrote:
arian wrote:
Mithrae wrote:Imagine an experiment where you have some monkeys in a cage. There are two chains. Chain A will provide a large quantity of food for the monkeys. Chain B will provide a small quantity of food. Next the experimenters set it up so that pulling chain A will also give an electric shock to another monkey in another cage. The monkeys can see each other. And in particular the monkeys sees the pain of the shocked monkey. It is easy formulate the conclusion, even for a monkey, that pulling on the chain that gives the large food reward will result in pain for another monkey.

Now the question is whether the monkeys will continue to pull on the chain A to get the large food reward or will the monkeys be sensitive to the other monkey's pain. What is your guess?
I believe the monkey will continue to pull chain A and get the big-reward, as I see humans who have little value for absolute-morals do even if it causes pain and suffering for their fellow man.

Now if you switched monkeys with dogs, ... ?? :-k
You didn't actually read the link did you? Go back and do that.
The result as published in a paper by Stephen Preston of University of California at Berkeley and Frans de Waal of Emory University showed that the monkeys no longer pulled on chain A which administers the shock. Two-thirds of the monkey will only pull on chain B which does not administer any shock. And the remaining third will not pull on any chain for as long as 5 days. There was one monkey that refused to pull on either chain for as long as 12 days. Quoting from the paper: "These monkeys were literally starving themselves to prevent the shock to the conspecific."

Next is the opinions, assumptions and guess-so's as if the scientists speak monkey;

This indicates that monkeys exhibit empathy, and some can say compassion, and other say altruism. Whatever term you call it, it is clear that even in primate monkeys, an individual is able to relate to the pain of another individual and will make decisions that will reduce the other's pain.

I'm sure most people here have had two puppies growing up in their homes at once, and when you punish one for pooping on the carpet, the other hides with its tail between its legs. Animals are aware of danger, not some deep emotional feelings for each other. We can 'interpret' the monkeys refusal to pull the chain ANY WAY we want, the monkeys will not object.

When animals sense danger their own or the others of their kind, they recognize and try to avoid the cause. If pulling the chain (or pooping on the carpet) causes the other obvious pain, eventually they avoid that which caused hazard, that's all. Birds in Africa will warn Gazelles, of Lions on the prowl, it's survival in the wild, not some emotional gesture.

I guess after this test they observed the monkey that has been pulling the chain apologize and hug the other monkey, am I right?

They recognize and then try to avoid danger, that's all.

When a Bear attacks one of the wolves, the others scatter, now I could write an entire book making up and listing all kinds of human emotions between the wolf pack. Disney has been doing that for many years, and Stephen Spielberg has done this too with a horse. The attempt here is to brainwash people into believing that animals (or even robots) have more emotion than humans. :roll:

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Post #204

Post by TheJackelantern »

I'm sure most people here have had two puppies growing up in their homes at once, and when you punish one for pooping on the carpet, the other hides with its tail between its legs. Animals are aware of danger, not some deep emotional feelings for each other. We can 'interpret' the monkeys refusal to pull the chain ANY WAY we want, the monkeys will not object.
Actually, the Monkeys did a better job than the humans did.. :

[youtube][/youtube]

And btw arian. they weren't studying puppies... And of course you seem to need to appeal to a denial of evidence in order to believe that animals are magically emotionless beasts ect and just randomly do things.
They recognize and then try to avoid danger, that's all.
This is how it works in humans too silly... However, empathy is shown to be the recognition of danger and danger to those of your own.. Many animals display empathy to which includes dolphins..

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