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Common sense/logic vs. the bible
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connermt Offline

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:53 pm  Common sense/logic vs. the bible Reply

Some people think you can't argue against christianity without referncing the bible. This is a flaw in logic as the bible won't try to prove itself false.
That said, of course the bible is basically "all" christians have to work off of. The facts that the stories were written by men, edited by other men and some works weren't even included in the "finished product", all while claiming to be the 'word of god' is disheartening. Add to the mix that fact that the bible - which is the way to heaven for the whole of the human race - has very little to say about other people in the planet at the time.
Putting all that huba-baloo aside, let's look at it from a strictly common sense/logical POV.

A being that is perfect (in no particular order):
- creates everything, but seems to only be concerned about a very small amount of matter (humans). When compared to the solar systems it should have created, caring about such a small % seems odd.
- creates people to worship it (or, depending on where you got your christian teachign from, wants to share its love). Teachings indicate they angels "good enough" to share its love/worship freely. Then it's illogical to create them in the first place.
- creates people knowing what the outcome would be (sinning) but created them anyway.
- allows a temptation to come into the garden and tempt them, knowing what would happen
- seemingly gets "upset" when it "finds out" what happens and curses them (as if it didn't know what happened)
- destroys a city, save for one family, because it's "unpure". Surely that wasn't the only city that was unpure at the time, no? Then when lot's wife lokos back, she turns into a pillar of salt. That seems rather...unimpressive for sucha being. Surely something more akin to a phaser blast would have been more impressive....?
- destroys the world (with water) save for one family. Again, water seem very unimpressive for such a 'everything' creator. Obviously, since the human race was so 'bad', this supreme (and loving) deity caused almost all of humanity and almost all of the animal species to drown. Ok so he's ticked off at people, but why not spare the animals? What did they do to him? Makes no sense
- comes to earth as a man. It makes no sense why a supreme being that knows everything needs to come down as 'a man' while, at the same time, being different than the man/son.
- employees several different people to write his story of his life (while he's a man) years (in some cases decades) after the fact. One would think, common sense would have god write it himself, or at least have someone else write it while it was happening. It's illogical to wait so long.
- employees terrible writers as their accounts of the same story differ slightly to enormously - some containing parts of the story that others don't. Surely, a logical all knowing god would know that, if this book is to be the guide to mankind's future, it need to be more accurate and not confusing. Yet this isn't the case.

We'll end the examples there. If one wishes, they could go into much more detail with later books.

So where's the human logic in these examples? Surely such a supreme being would have been able to foresee these "issues" and address them in a way outside the biblical text (that not everyone has accessto, or even finds believable).

So where's the logic? Why does one seem to need the bible to prove what the bible says is correct? Surely god must have given us logic, yet when we use it in an unbiased way for such an important goal in mind, it doesn't come full circle.
Logical? Sensible? Where is it?
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ttruscott Offline
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:18 pm   Reply

False dichotomy,

many Christians believe that to believe is to have your understanding opened to the leading of the Holy Spirit which is absolutely necessary to understanding the bible properly as

the point is not to learn its secrets but to use it to enhance your realtionship with GOD, the main point.

Peace, Ted
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connermt Offline

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:20 pm   Reply

ttruscott wrote:

False dichotomy,

many Christians believe that to believe is to have your understanding opened to the leading of the Holy Spirit which is absolutely necessary to understanding the bible properly as

the point is not to learn its secrets but to use it to enhance your realtionship with GOD, the main point.

Peace, Ted


Not at all.
And you missed the point entirely. d'oh!
This isn't about christians understanding the bible. It's about, when looking at it from the outside ligically, how the whole concept doesn't make logical sense.
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Bust Nak Offline
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:40 pm   Reply

connermt wrote:
Not at all.
And you missed the point entirely. d'oh!
This isn't about christians understanding the bible. It's about, when looking at it from the outside ligically, how the whole concept doesn't make logical sense.

I don't think ttruscott missed the point at all, he is agreeing with you that the Bible doesn't make sense from the outside, because it's not supposed to make sense from the outside. It can only make sense from the inside, i.e. only with the help of holy spirit.

Which of course is an explanation that also makes no sense to people without the holy spirit.
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connermt Offline

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:49 pm   Reply

Bust Nak wrote:

connermt wrote:
Not at all.
And you missed the point entirely. d'oh!
This isn't about christians understanding the bible. It's about, when looking at it from the outside ligically, how the whole concept doesn't make logical sense.

I don't think ttruscott missed the point at all, he is agreeing with you that the Bible doesn't make sense from the outside, because it's not supposed to make sense from the outside. It can only make sense from the inside, i.e. only with the help of holy spirit.

Which of course is an explanation that also makes no sense to people without the holy spirit.


He starts out speaking about christians, the holy ghost and understanding. He mentions nothing about understanding without the ghost specifically. Therefore, I deduced the statement as the POV of christians, and how it makes sense to them. It's circular - a chicken-&-the-egg type of idea.
He does nothing to explain how it could/should make sense outside of the christian clique.
I understand your point on his statement, I just don't agree with it.
That said, I do agree with your last sentence.
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:08 am  Re: Common sense/logic vs. the bible Reply

Well connermt, if I understood correctly, Bible is wery confusing and difficult to you to understand. I don’t have any problems to understand it. So is the problem really in the Bible, or is it only in peoples mind? Should God give all the same understanding? Would you like to have it? I believe that God can give it to you, if you really want it.
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:26 am   Reply

I am somewhat loathe to make this post ...

Quote:
- creates everything, but seems to only be concerned about a very small amount of matter (humans). When compared to the solar systems it should have created, caring about such a small % seems odd.


What makes it illogical to focus on one aspect of matter?

If you can show it is illogical leave the point. If you can't will you remove it?
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dusk Offline
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:54 pm   Reply

connermt wrote:

He does nothing to explain how it could/should make sense outside of the christian clique.
I understand your point on his statement, I just don't agree with it.
That said, I do agree with your last sentence.

I have to disagree with Bust Naks last sentence.
The thing is nobody has to explain how because it is not. There is nothing to make sense without of holy spirit lulling. So why would there be anything to explain.
Holy spirit is just the metaphysical drug that you need in the first place. Can be administered via indoctrination, want, despair, ...
It is like the stuff the Scientology guys have in their books. You need to be really into it for being able to not regard it as ridiculous at contact.

I think that makes sense from the outside even if it cannot be fully understood unless there is some personal experience for it. I can read as many books about sects as I want I still will never truly understand how some people seem to completely turn off their rationality. To a lesser degree religion is the same thing. Even the most liberal theology requires some of this drug.
Just read some liberal theology as an Atheist. A big book the first chapters make perfect sense and at some point they simply dissolve into a world of we want or like it better that way and some weird sounding definitions of alternatives.
I think in all believe systems you need to like the answer before you can easily accept it. If you like it enough it seems possible to justify just about anything considering all the arguments that exist and all the stuff people believe.
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connermt Offline

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 9: Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:33 pm  Re: Common sense/logic vs. the bible Reply

1213 wrote:

Well connermt, if I understood correctly, Bible is wery confusing and difficult to you to understand. I don’t have any problems to understand it. So is the problem really in the Bible, or is it only in peoples mind? Should God give all the same understanding? Would you like to have it? I believe that God can give it to you, if you really want it.


The same thing can be said of most anythign christian: is it real, or in the mind?
If it's real, and it's god's book, god has the responsibility to make it understandable.
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connermt Offline

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 10: Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:34 pm   Reply

Wootah wrote:

I am somewhat loathe to make this post ...

Quote:
- creates everything, but seems to only be concerned about a very small amount of matter (humans). When compared to the solar systems it should have created, caring about such a small % seems odd.


What makes it illogical to focus on one aspect of matter?

If you can show it is illogical leave the point. If you can't will you remove it?


Considering all that exists that we know of and how much more exists that we don't know of, it's illogical for such a great being to focus so much of itself on humanity.
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