Why does God send people of different faiths to hell?

[Justin108]

In a world of thousands of religions; not one with any proof and all relying on faith, why would God send us to Hell for not knowing which religion to choose?





Exodus 20:3 - "You shall have no other gods before me.""


Mark 16:16 - "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

[JoeyKnothead]

From the OP:

Why does God send people of different faiths to hell?

He don't seem to do so much of that, as he sends the Hell-worthy to it.

So he says, if he says it, he says, "If y'all've done your best to be good, best ya can and we know ya tried like all of it, well I won't get on ya about none of that other of it ya didn't get so good."

The notion of Hell is for the easily frightened, the intellectually weary or plain ignorant, or for those who know they can't convince you other'n to threaten you about it.

A god that knows all, that loves all, would be, I contend, incapable of sending good, decent, but they got it wrong folks to Hell.

[ttruscott]

...


Perhaps you can forgive Justin and I and others that we do not count you as an authority or cannot remember silly things someone has passed off as eternal truth. You really believe in the pre-existence? I suppose in this pre-existence we were spirits? Souls? Then this magical stuff somehow got transmitted into just the right sperm, and just the right egg, or did this pre-existing spirit or whatever wait until the brain was developed, then hop inside, yet do so without leaving a trace of itself in our memories?

Can you explain what shackles of scripture forced you into this theology?

I do not count myself as a Christian authority but since I am the only believer in PCE here, I must be the local authority for that theology, neh?

I have no stand against those who don't agree with me, equal opportunity and all, but I don't like being constantly misread or worse sometimes misquoted though that has fallen off nicely.

Play as hard as you want but play fair is all I ask.

Yes, I am fully commited to our pre-earth existence. Some of the most disturbing parts of Christian theology make no sense without it so it was give up on Christianity or give up on learning how Christianity worked or keep on digging, which finally paid off.

Yes we were spirits and no, I know nothing of the process of putting a spirit into a body...the instruction manual for that was not included,

But as for traces in our memories, there might be a few for some people but not usually interpreted in this way.

Past lives (if some folk get recycled a few times), love at first sight, the feeling someone is a 'soul mate,' and the feeling that your death will be a 'going home again', might all be manifestations of the forgotten past leaking through.

Shackles of scripture...cute. So, the tricky bits eh?
I started to accept PCE when I started to see how it gave us all free will (against the Calvinists to whom I then leaned but who deny free will to my chagrin), yet we have no free will here on earth as per many many scriptures (contra Arminians who claim our will is free on earth).

Free will gave us a reason for our election (contra Calvin who used earthly rules that nothing on earth had any influence on our election) which solved the 'GOD is a monster who chose some and created others just to go to hell,' problem.

I was even taught a very complete and full definition of free will, good enough to have come from GOD, it is far above secular definitions.

Free will and election based on our choices hooked me and the rest slowly grew into place around that. After 35 years I'm still amazed at how perfectly just a system it is for GOD to find everyone who wanted to spend their eternity with HIM and all that HE offered. So amazing I can't believe others don't see it,

The bad news is that demons and devils have no hope, they can't repent and Jesus did not die for them (contra the Arminians). And also, the judgment day will not arrive until the last sinful elect repents and becomes holy. Who will that be, eh? A dubious dishonour...

Peace, Ted

[ttruscott]

...

Well what the hell are you doing on a Christian DEBATE site if you refuse to debate?

...

Well I thought Christianity and Apologetics is the discussion area, not the debate area and all ordinary Christian definitions are accepted at face value and fine tuned by discussion.

I find demands for proof which is GOD's pervue to be demeaning of my created status, sniff. I'm ordered by the Almighty to live by faith, not proof.

What is it about 'Debating Christianity and Religion' you don't get? What 'ordinary Christian definitions' are you talking about? Do you think your belief in the pre-existence is an ordinary Christian belief? Who decides what is Christian orthodoxy or what is 'ordinary?' Did the 'Almighty' order you to live solely by faith and to abandon rational thought and empirical investigation?

I don't know what I don't get...

Ordinary definitions like the meaning of sin, satan, free will, GOD, election etc.

No, my belief in PCE is not ordinary but extraordinary.

Each Church defines their own orthodoxy and heresy and if a person is non-affiliated with a church, he must do it for himself with the help of GOD's grace.

Yes, the 'Almighty' ordered me to live solely by faith but HE had me look over all the claims to defining reality and investigating many religions and Christian sects and cults rationally which I did. I rejected empiricism pretty quick as having nothing to teach anyone about spiritual things as per:
1 Corinthians 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Empiricism is also part of the failure of the debate methodology to get at theological or spiritual truth.

Peace, Ted

[Danmark]

...


Perhaps you can forgive Justin and I and others that we do not count you as an authority or cannot remember silly things someone has passed off as eternal truth. You really believe in the pre-existence? I suppose in this pre-existence we were spirits? Souls? Then this magical stuff somehow got transmitted into just the right sperm, and just the right egg, or did this pre-existing spirit or whatever wait until the brain was developed, then hop inside, yet do so without leaving a trace of itself in our memories?

Can you explain what shackles of scripture forced you into this theology?

I do not count myself as a Christian authority but since I am the only believer in PCE here, I must be the local authority for that theology, neh?

I have no stand against those who don't agree with me, equal opportunity and all, but I don't like being constantly misread or worse sometimes misquoted though that has fallen off nicely.

Play as hard as you want but play fair is all I ask.

Yes, I am fully commited to our pre-earth existence. Some of the most disturbing parts of Christian theology make no sense without it so it was give up on Christianity or give up on learning how Christianity worked or keep on digging, which finally paid off.

Yes we were spirits and no, I know nothing of the process of putting a spirit into a body...the instruction manual for that was not included,

But as for traces in our memories, there might be a few for some people but not usually interpreted in this way.

Past lives (if some folk get recycled a few times), love at first sight, the feeling someone is a 'soul mate,' and the feeling that your death will be a 'going home again', might all be manifestations of the forgotten past leaking through.

Shackles of scripture...cute. So, the tricky bits eh?
I started to accept PCE when I started to see how it gave us all free will (against the Calvinists to whom I then leaned but who deny free will to my chagrin), yet we have no free will here on earth as per many many scriptures (contra Arminians who claim our will is free on earth).

Free will gave us a reason for our election (contra Calvin who used earthly rules that nothing on earth had any influence on our election) which solved the 'GOD is a monster who chose some and created others just to go to hell,' problem.

I was even taught a very complete and full definition of free will, good enough to have come from GOD, it is far above secular definitions.

Free will and election based on our choices hooked me and the rest slowly grew into place around that. After 35 years I'm still amazed at how perfectly just a system it is for GOD to find everyone who wanted to spend their eternity with HIM and all that HE offered. So amazing I can't believe others don't see it,

The bad news is that demons and devils have no hope, they can't repent and Jesus did not die for them (contra the Arminians). And also, the judgment day will not arrive until the last sinful elect repents and becomes holy. Who will that be, eh? A dubious dishonour...

Peace, Ted

Fair enough. Just seems very odd to me. I can see how it is a way around Calvanism. That aspect makes sense as it preserves free will.

[stubbornone]

Having faith, ie accepting Christ as your saviour, saves you from the damnation for being a sinner, what you are in your essential nature (ie not what you exactly do).

- So we deserve hell for what we are? That's even worse. In that regard we are completely innocent. We can't choose what we are. And if being a sinner is our essential nature - since God created us, he created our nature; hence God made us sinners. So God is punishing us for what HE made us to be.

- If you're going to turn this around by saying "we turned ourselves into sinners" then you're contradicting yourself because in order to make yourself a sinner then is through sin. In which case my earlier example is completely applicable since what that girl did was examples of sin - which would be what made her a sinner.

I'm not turning anything around, (though the accusatory nature of the phrase is noted)...I've written clearly and often that
we self created our sinful nature
which is obvious in my past posts. Have you forgotten that or are you ignoring that?

The girl's sins were on earth and so have no impact on her nature which was established by her choices 6000 years ago, give or take.

Ingenuously innocent people chose by free will to become either a member of GOD's church or to reject HIM for ever.

The rejection of GOD self created the rejectors as alien, demons and devils, destroying their original nature. The elect who chose to sin, because of their prior decision to accept all GOD had to offer, are able to be brought back to this decision after they chose to become evil.

Not every self chosen sinner can be treated the same, nor will respond to treatment the same. The sins of the elect can be treated (because they fixed their characters as GOD's church by free will choice) but not the sins of the non-elect (who fixed their characters as GOD's enemies for ever by their true free will choice), as I have written. Sins on earth do not change our nature like the choices pre-earth of those who rejected HIM.

You seem to continue to confuse the two kinds of sinners and the two places of their sin...differences which are the crux of my theology of the separation of GOD from the creation of sin and the just ie righteous, judgment for sin.

All this explanation is not to try to change your mind but to fine tune your animosity to Christianity...ie if you must hate GOD, at least hate HIM for the right reasons.

Peace, Ted

Ok so let me get this straight... you believe that 6000 years ago we were all in heaven and some of us chose to be sinners (for no apparent reason) and was then sent to earth as sinners?

Well firstly, where the hell do you get this idea? Where does it say we are all spirits in heaven before we became human?

Secondly, assuming this whole theory of yours is backed, why would a spirit in heaven choose to become a sinner? Here on earth it makes sense that people give in to temptations from time to time, such as lust and greed, but in heaven there are no such temptations. There is no reason ANYONE would choose to become sinners, get sent to earth with a wiped memory, and risk the possibility of going to hell

No, what he is saying is that there is this guy Satan, and the theology on this is well known ...

I think the point that he is making is that [size=16]atheists deliberately misquote, misunderstand, and misdirect[/size] something rather than take it face value.

The theology on Satan and those who follow them should not come as a shock to those who consider themselves experts enough to dismiss all religion as equally arcane - who then turn around and demonstrate an absolute lack of familiarity with any of them.

That's a rather broad sweeping statement. You have in essence just called all atheists dishonest. Are you saying Ted misrepresents the theology of pre-existence? Do you share his belief that we all made our decisions in the pre-existence, before we were zygotes? All an atheist does is to say he thinks it is probable that there is no god of popular Christian orthodoxy, no 'theistic' god. Whether a religion or one of the hundreds of different versions of Christianity is or is not arcane is a separate question. Is Ted's belief in the pre-existence of souls arcane? A majority Christian view? I'll hazard a guess that most Christians would reject such a stance; believing that they can make a free choice to believe in and follow Jesus and that this was not predetermined by some decision they made before they were conceived.

I think its pretty self evident what is happening when a major piece of theology is misrepresented. In fact, you continue to do that, while taking umbrage at the charge that it is dishonest to DELIBERATELY misrepresent someone else - well, it is.

The idea of the pre-existence, as taught in Christian theology, is that there is this little thing called a spirit - a soul if you will - and that in this state, there were two plans, one was from Jesus, which is what we have now - free will, consequences, etc. The other was from Satan, no free will - everyone comes down here but the follow God's Commandments exactly. The difference is that some fail and cannot rejoin Heavenly Father in the first, ALL pass in the second, but neither do they live or learn now do they. It is this debate that set off Satan's rebellion. And the belief is that, if you are here now, its because your spirit in the pre-existence chose to side with Jesus rather than the devil.

The concept of the veil is also difficult to understand, eh?

How that gets stretched into, "Our decisions are made before we are zygotes," completely and totally, and IMHO, misses the point and is a deliberate misrepresentation of well known Christian theology (que the random 'thousands' of denominations - and yet the practicing members of those denominations are familiar with this portion of the basic theology).

In short, you can take the story anyway you want, but if you attempts to discredit it rely on deliberately misrepresenting it and misunderstanding it? All you discredit is your own strawman.

Now, why is that atheists in general seem to have a problem grasping the basics of the narrative about pre-existence? Why are the conclusions based upon it more superfluous than Scientology? Particularly if we are attempting to have a discussion about the Christian concept of hell ... what the devil, no pun intended, does misunderstanding the role of pre-existence in Christian theology have to do with the discussion?

According to that theology, there is a veil in place that prevents your personal knowledge of that pre-existence, and you are here with free will to explore the aspects of existence, morality, etc - and bear the consequences of that fruit - to your hearts content.

What exactly do you gain by misrepresenting the idea of pre-existence in God's Plan of Salavation?

Especially given the fact that the same theology states that your actions in the pre-existence have no bearing on what will ultimately get you condemned to hell - the consequences of your own unrepentant sin conducted ... gasp ... during this life.

That would include BTW, following commandment number nine.

[Danmark]

Having faith, ie accepting Christ as your saviour, saves you from the damnation for being a sinner, what you are in your essential nature (ie not what you exactly do).

- So we deserve hell for what we are? That's even worse. In that regard we are completely innocent. We can't choose what we are. And if being a sinner is our essential nature - since God created us, he created our nature; hence God made us sinners. So God is punishing us for what HE made us to be.

- If you're going to turn this around by saying "we turned ourselves into sinners" then you're contradicting yourself because in order to make yourself a sinner then is through sin. In which case my earlier example is completely applicable since what that girl did was examples of sin - which would be what made her a sinner.

I'm not turning anything around, (though the accusatory nature of the phrase is noted)...I've written clearly and often that
we self created our sinful nature
which is obvious in my past posts. Have you forgotten that or are you ignoring that?

The girl's sins were on earth and so have no impact on her nature which was established by her choices 6000 years ago, give or take.

Ingenuously innocent people chose by free will to become either a member of GOD's church or to reject HIM for ever.

The rejection of GOD self created the rejectors as alien, demons and devils, destroying their original nature. The elect who chose to sin, because of their prior decision to accept all GOD had to offer, are able to be brought back to this decision after they chose to become evil.

Not every self chosen sinner can be treated the same, nor will respond to treatment the same. The sins of the elect can be treated (because they fixed their characters as GOD's church by free will choice) but not the sins of the non-elect (who fixed their characters as GOD's enemies for ever by their true free will choice), as I have written. Sins on earth do not change our nature like the choices pre-earth of those who rejected HIM.

You seem to continue to confuse the two kinds of sinners and the two places of their sin...differences which are the crux of my theology of the separation of GOD from the creation of sin and the just ie righteous, judgment for sin.

All this explanation is not to try to change your mind but to fine tune your animosity to Christianity...ie if you must hate GOD, at least hate HIM for the right reasons.

Peace, Ted

Ok so let me get this straight... you believe that 6000 years ago we were all in heaven and some of us chose to be sinners (for no apparent reason) and was then sent to earth as sinners?

Well firstly, where the hell do you get this idea? Where does it say we are all spirits in heaven before we became human?

Secondly, assuming this whole theory of yours is backed, why would a spirit in heaven choose to become a sinner? Here on earth it makes sense that people give in to temptations from time to time, such as lust and greed, but in heaven there are no such temptations. There is no reason ANYONE would choose to become sinners, get sent to earth with a wiped memory, and risk the possibility of going to hell

No, what he is saying is that there is this guy Satan, and the theology on this is well known ...

I think the point that he is making is that [size=16]atheists deliberately misquote, misunderstand, and misdirect[/size] something rather than take it face value.

The theology on Satan and those who follow them should not come as a shock to those who consider themselves experts enough to dismiss all religion as equally arcane - who then turn around and demonstrate an absolute lack of familiarity with any of them.

That's a rather broad sweeping statement. You have in essence just called all atheists dishonest. Are you saying Ted misrepresents the theology of pre-existence? Do you share his belief that we all made our decisions in the pre-existence, before we were zygotes? All an atheist does is to say he thinks it is probable that there is no god of popular Christian orthodoxy, no 'theistic' god. Whether a religion or one of the hundreds of different versions of Christianity is or is not arcane is a separate question. Is Ted's belief in the pre-existence of souls arcane? A majority Christian view? I'll hazard a guess that most Christians would reject such a stance; believing that they can make a free choice to believe in and follow Jesus and that this was not predetermined by some decision they made before they were conceived.

I think its pretty self evident what is happening when a major piece of theology is misrepresented. In fact, you continue to do that, while taking umbrage at the charge that it is dishonest to DELIBERATELY misrepresent someone else - well, it is.

The idea of the pre-existence, as taught in Christian theology, is that there is this little thing called a spirit - a soul if you will - and that in this state, there were two plans, one was from Jesus, which is what we have now - free will, consequences, etc. The other was from Satan, no free will - everyone comes down here but the follow God's Commandments exactly. The difference is that some fail and cannot rejoin Heavenly Father in the first, ALL pass in the second, but neither do they live or learn now do they. It is this debate that set off Satan's rebellion. And the belief is that, if you are here now, its because your spirit in the pre-existence chose to side with Jesus rather than the devil.

The concept of the veil is also difficult to understand, eh?

How that gets stretched into, "Our decisions are made before we are zygotes," completely and totally, and IMHO, misses the point and is a deliberate misrepresentation of well known Christian theology (que the random 'thousands' of denominations - and yet the practicing members of those denominations are familiar with this portion of the basic theology).

In short, you can take the story anyway you want, but if you attempts to discredit it rely on deliberately misrepresenting it and misunderstanding it? All you discredit is your own strawman.

Now, why is that atheists in general seem to have a problem grasping the basics of the narrative about pre-existence? Why are the conclusions based upon it more superfluous than Scientology? Particularly if we are attempting to have a discussion about the Christian concept of hell ... what the devil, no pun intended, does misunderstanding the role of pre-existence in Christian theology have to do with the discussion?

According to that theology, there is a veil in place that prevents your personal knowledge of that pre-existence, and you are here with free will to explore the aspects of existence, morality, etc - and bear the consequences of that fruit - to your hearts content.

What exactly do you gain by misrepresenting the idea of pre-existence in God's Plan of Salavation?

Especially given the fact that the same theology states that your actions in the pre-existence have no bearing on what will ultimately get you condemned to hell - the consequences of your own unrepentant sin conducted ... gasp ... during this life.

That would include BTW, following commandment number nine.

I dispute the theology of pre-existence. I have asked questions about it. Can you quote me saying what 'pre-existence theology is'? When you quote what I claim it is, then you can make your case that I have misrepresented it, and not before.

[ttruscott]

...
Ok so let me get this straight... you believe that 6000 years ago we were all in heaven and some of us chose to be sinners (for no apparent reason) and was then sent to earth as sinners?

Yes.

Well firstly, where the hell do you get this idea? Where does it say we are all spirits in heaven before we became human?

As a hidden doctrine (like the diety of the Messiah was a hidden doctrine for centuries) it was not spelled out in so many words but there are a lot of hints:
Jeremiah 1:5 we read, "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

Secondly, assuming this whole theory of yours is backed, why would a spirit in heaven choose to become a sinner? Here on earth it makes sense that people give in to temptations from time to time, such as lust and greed, but in heaven there are no such temptations. There is no reason ANYONE would choose to become sinners, get sent to earth with a wiped memory, and risk the possibility of going to hell...

You are right of course, who would choose to reject GOD ALMIGHTY to HIS face? but thanks for asking - all to many people assume I have no answer and just abuse me with an accusation disguised as a question.

This is getting into the depths of free will and election and all, which would take how many pages in Calvin's Institutes or in the Westminster Confession etc? So it might go on a bit but it won't ramble and the fit is pretty tight.

[My avatr reads: Patient Endurance, and it is for me more than anybody!]

Maybe you've noticed I usually call our choices pre-earth true free will decisions. This is because I contend that for a choice to be a real chocie, a true choice, all ramifications of the outcome of each decision must be known.

IE; a simple analogy that will get us started but not finished: the old room with two doors; one to freedom and one with a tiger. If you are told that one will free you but the other will end in death and that is all you are told, do you have a choice? Yes, but not a real choice...you have a guess.

But, if you were told that the door to the right was to freedom and the door to the left was the tiger, do you have a choice now? Yes, it is a real choice but it is not about doors any longer is it? It is about whether you trust the person giving you the information, no?

If you have no trust in him, you might reject his version of which door is which.

But you ask, when you tell them which door has the tiger, why don't you let them have a peek into the room and see for themselves? Do they have a choice if you do that? No they don't - they may be able to choose to get killed but in fact they are coerced by their knowledge, the proof of where the tiger is so that their choice is coerced by the proof (ie no free will) , self interest forces them to choose the other door and the choice is not real.

So now you understand that to make a true free will choice you must know all the ramifications of each part of the choice, details spelled out as full as can be, but with no proof or there is no choice and no free will.

And GOD's purpose for us can only be fulfilled if we accept it by a true free will decision.

Now I don't think GOD lined us all up and said, "Time to chose lads and lasses, here's the choice..."

It is not like that here on earth and I think this life is a shadow of our previous life. I think we all grew together in matureity until God suggested that He was our GOD and we should consider what that means for our future. This would make the choice and the opposities of heaven and hell and election and the gospel promise all come into our minds naturally in conversation with each other and with GOD.

HE also told us why HE created us, to learn to love fully and purely, and to worship HIM fully and purely and to be holy in HIS sight and to enjoy pure loving holy communion with HIM and the rest of the Church forever. The only problem was that love, worship and holiness can only proceed from a true free will acceptance of them or it is all fake. With no free will, a person cannot ever choose to fulfill HIS purpose to make their realtionship with HIM real.

Whether GOD was in our midst talking to us (which I think most likely) or hiding HIMself like HE does now, HE must have hidden HIS divinity and power so as to not coerce our choice.

Of course as the talk went about, others offered other ideas about this development: GOD (whether a Trinity or not) was lying and not our creator, someone else was the real creator or there was no creator at all, we were all our own gods etc.

GOD promised those who accepted HIM as GOD and accepted HIS purpose for their creation by faith ie with the hope HE was GOD but without proof, that HE would give them the free gift of election to heaven backed by the gospel promise that if they should ever choose to be evil in HIS sight that HE would do everything necessary to save them, but

those who rejected HIM as their GOD and rejected HIS purpose for their creation by faith that he was a liar and not god at all, but a false god, would be forever outside of HIS will, HIS love and HIS grace for all eternity and full of a never ending hatred for HIM and HIS church. Such a choice would change their very nature from that which they were created to be to beings enslaved to sin, totally evil, self created demons and devils, so they must be judged for their sin and sent to hell.

Because their will would become enslaved by sin if they rejected GOD by true free will, their ability to make real free will decision would be broken forever so they could never fulfill the purpose of their creation, making them fit for nothing useful at all.

Such were the promises and warnings we all received without any proof and mulled over in our hearts until we slowly settled into various groups: those who wanted the promise of heaven, those who wanted to avoid any chance of going to hell, to those who had no fear and dis-believed god was real or had power.

Then came the call to act, to decide once and for all: to choose which kind of life we wanted to have, which kind of life we hoped would make us the happiest by making this choice:

1. a life with this (supposed) GOD who was perfect and (supposedly) created us to join HIM in that perfection and in loving holy communion forever but who would damn anyone who became HIS eternal enemy by rejecting HIS plan for their creation,
or
2. a life in which we were just as important as the false god, better in fact because we were not liars about ourselves. A life in which we are our own GOD and our laws and our love is the epitomé of perfection. A life in which we bow to no one.
or
3. a life being (or following) any other kind of god of any description based upon thoughts that this Jehovah was a false god but had a good gig going and they wanted in on the action.

and probably by the time this happened most folk knew where they stood except this was the last chance for those who stood against Jehovah to change their mind.

And that is how GOD could set up a true free will choice without scaring anyone into belief (couldn't work anyway) or forcing anyone to do anything and yet,

by these acts of faith, built on the hope in HIM being GOD but without any proof at all He found everyone who was willing to live with HIM in heaven according to HIS description of reality and no one who didn't want a life like that would never have to suffer living like that though they were warned that neither would they get what they wanted.

So now you know how I think that your statement: There is no reason ANYONE would choose to become sinners...and risk the possibility of going to hell... had any chance of reality. Instead they chose to be their own god and put their faith, hope without proof into disbelieving that JHWH was the one true living GOD and believing that they were as good as HE was anyday.

As for "get sent to earth with a wiped memory," that is another long story and I'm beat.

Peace, Ted

[Justin108]

...


Perhaps you can forgive Justin and I and others that we do not count you as an authority or cannot remember silly things someone has passed off as eternal truth. You really believe in the pre-existence? I suppose in this pre-existence we were spirits? Souls? Then this magical stuff somehow got transmitted into just the right sperm, and just the right egg, or did this pre-existing spirit or whatever wait until the brain was developed, then hop inside, yet do so without leaving a trace of itself in our memories?

Can you explain what shackles of scripture forced you into this theology?

I do not count myself as a Christian authority but since I am the only believer in PCE here, I must be the local authority for that theology, neh?

I have no stand against those who don't agree with me, equal opportunity and all, but I don't like being constantly misread or worse sometimes misquoted though that has fallen off nicely.

Play as hard as you want but play fair is all I ask.

Yes, I am fully commited to our pre-earth existence. Some of the most disturbing parts of Christian theology make no sense without it so it was give up on Christianity or give up on learning how Christianity worked or keep on digging, which finally paid off.

Yes we were spirits and no, I know nothing of the process of putting a spirit into a body...the instruction manual for that was not included,

But as for traces in our memories, there might be a few for some people but not usually interpreted in this way.

Past lives (if some folk get recycled a few times), love at first sight, the feeling someone is a 'soul mate,' and the feeling that your death will be a 'going home again', might all be manifestations of the forgotten past leaking through.

Shackles of scripture...cute. So, the tricky bits eh?
I started to accept PCE when I started to see how it gave us all free will (against the Calvinists to whom I then leaned but who deny free will to my chagrin), yet we have no free will here on earth as per many many scriptures (contra Arminians who claim our will is free on earth).

Free will gave us a reason for our election (contra Calvin who used earthly rules that nothing on earth had any influence on our election) which solved the 'GOD is a monster who chose some and created others just to go to hell,' problem.

I was even taught a very complete and full definition of free will, good enough to have come from GOD, it is far above secular definitions.

Free will and election based on our choices hooked me and the rest slowly grew into place around that. After 35 years I'm still amazed at how perfectly just a system it is for GOD to find everyone who wanted to spend their eternity with HIM and all that HE offered. So amazing I can't believe others don't see it,

The bad news is that demons and devils have no hope, they can't repent and Jesus did not die for them (contra the Arminians). And also, the judgment day will not arrive until the last sinful elect repents and becomes holy. Who will that be, eh? A dubious dishonour...

Peace, Ted

You didn't refer to a single piece of scripture. It seems to me you made up PCE to consolidate your discomfort with the irrationality of the Bible.


"Past lives (if some folk get recycled a few times), love at first sight, the feeling someone is a 'soul mate,' and the feeling that your death will be a 'going home again', might all be manifestations of the forgotten past leaking through."
- Past lives are bull. No evidence for that
- Love at first sight is also bull. You cannot earnestly love someone after seeing them for the first time. This would simply be shallow physical attraction.
- Soul mate.. also bull. This is just some romancy term for people who are in a very compatible relationship.
- And if death was just "going home" then people wouldn't do everything they can in order to survive.



So your whole belief in PCE seems like nothing more than a made-up rationalization to consolidate your beliefs. In this regard, it has about as much worth as Scientology

[NVIIIX1]

In a world of thousands of religions; not one with any proof and all relying on faith, why would God send us to Hell for not knowing which religion to choose?





Exodus 20:3 - "You shall have no other gods before me.""


Mark 16:16 - "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

It's no accident that the bible gives up conflicting images about the nature of eternal punishment. Sometimes mentioned as the abode of the dead, sometimes a place of darkness and gnashing of teeth, sometimes as a lake of fire, a place where the worm doesn't die.

Considering Jesus' ministry emphasized the dangers of hell, it seems something Christians cannot ignore.

Since God is everywhere and sustains all things, eternal punishment is something managed by Him. Jesus covers those with His righteousness, and protects them from condemnation. This is why the Salvation of Jesus is so important.

[Justin108]

So now you understand that to make a true free will choice you must know all the ramifications of each part of the choice, details spelled out as full as can be, but with no proof or there is no choice and no free will.

Why can't I have free will choices WITH proof? Without proof they will merely be guesses. I'm a determinist so to me, absolute free will does not exist and it cannot. No matter what, choices are dictated by external forces to some degree whether it is desires or trust in someone. You mentioned that had he known where the door leads, he will definitely choose the one without the tiger and if he does so he no longer has free will as his choices were externally dictated. But trusting the person telling you about the doors is ALSO externally dictated. Whether you trust him depends on how well you know him, past experiences with trust, etc. Where the actual free will comes in is his choice of whether he wants to live or not.

Whether GOD was in our midst talking to us (which I think most likely) or hiding HIMself like HE does now, HE must have hidden HIS divinity and power so as to not coerce our choice.

Of course as the talk went about, others offered other ideas about this development: GOD (whether a Trinity or not) was lying and not our creator, someone else was the real creator or there was no creator at all, we were all our own gods etc.

GOD promised those who accepted HIM as GOD and accepted HIS purpose for their creation by faith ie with the hope HE was GOD but without proof, that HE would give them the free gift of election to heaven backed by the gospel promise that if they should ever choose to be evil in HIS sight that HE would do everything necessary to save them, but

those who rejected HIM as their GOD and rejected HIS purpose for their creation by faith that he was a liar and not god at all, but a false god, would be forever outside of HIS will, HIS love and HIS grace for all eternity and full of a never ending hatred for HIM and HIS church. Such a choice would change their very nature from that which they were created to be to beings enslaved to sin, totally evil, self created demons and devils, so they must be judged for their sin and sent to hell.

- This is irrational. You're saying all the people of earth were once spirits who directly spoke to God but were randomly skeptical and assumed a conspiracy theory and figured to themselves that he isn't the real God?
- Do you even understand how trust is formed? Trust isn't just some random aspect in us which these skeptical spirits lacked. You're painting a picture of them just flipping a coin on god's divinity.
- Trust is gradually formed through past experiences. People learn to distrust people when their trust is broken in the past. People learn from experience that lies are possible. In this spirit world of yours, what reason would they have for denying god's divinity? Have they been presented with past false gods for them to conclude that a god can be false? Have they witnessed many lies to conclude that god may be lying to them?


Logical inconsistencies aside, your whole belief in PCE is made up. And like I said in an earlier post, has about the same merit as Scientology and after this explanation of yours it sounds eerily similar to Scientology. It is completely made up.