Please delete my account

[cnorman18]

Please delete my account.

Here are the reasons, which are unrelated to any debate in which I am currently involved. The following is edited from a PM to another member:

I have been on this forum for five years, arguing, among other things, that there IS such a thing as rational religion, that NOT all religion is opposed to or incompatible with science, that there ARE religious perspectives not based on supernaturalism, that religion HAS brought many benefits to the world, and so on. I've argued all those points for years now.

Even so, one of the most intelligent and active members here has recently posted a message which reinforces every stereotype, blanket generalization, and distortion that I've ever fought against here. If even HE can still promote this simplistic nonsense, I conclude that I have been wasting my time.

Even if that member is just taking an extreme position in order to provoke debate, I don't have time for those games. I've been trying to raise the level of debate here above the "religion is irrational, childish magical thinking," "science is always good," and "religion is always bad" level for a long time -- and here we are, still in that simplistic, stereotyping swamp. I could jump into that thread and talk, once again, about (e.g.) chemical warfare and nuclear weapons on the "science" side and Gregor Mendel, Roger Bacon and the invention of organized charities, hospitals, and orphanages on the "religion" side -- and begin talking about the qualitative and historical differences between Judaism and other religions, and the fact that, too, very many Christians are NOT antiscientific, homophobic, and dogmatic ideologues -- but I've kinda been there and done that, you know? As in, almost every day for four out of the last five years. I don't feel like doing it any more, especially with someone who ought to know better -- and I find that I don't feel like blowing any more of the time I have left on an activity that is, it would appear, entirely pointless.

Be well. You guys will have to deal with the assorted cultists, nutballs, antisemites and other yahoos that will inevitably show up on your own. My work here is done -- because I have apparently accomplished exactly nothing, in 7000+ posts and God only knows (you'll excuse the expression) how many hours of work and research.

Good will to all and malice toward none. Farewell, and -- without apology -- may God, Whoever and Whatever He is or may be, bless you all.

Charles

[Divine Insight]

for you to say you haven't made an impact is false. When I now post in generalities about religious belief and what I think about them, I leave Judaism out.

@ Charles,

I agree with Nickman's comment here in general. But unfortunately it's extremely difficult to put into practice.

In other words, I actually agree with you, Charles, that many Jews do not view the Torah, or Old Testament, in the same way that Christians do, (i.e. that it is the verbatim word of God). But this was actually true back in the days of Jesus!

Jesus himself was a Jew right?

Yet he totally disagreed with the views of the Jewish Pharisees. And they were Jews too right?

So even in Jesus' day we see two different views of Judaism right there. Jesus' views versus the views of the Pharisees.

I will be the first to agree that it is extremely ironic that Christians seem to have adopted the views of the Jewish Pharisees. (i.e. the views that the Torah should be held up as the verbatim word of God).

Jesus clearly opposed that view, IMHO.

Yet, a basic foundation of the Christian religion has been to hold Jesus up as an excuse to actually support the hard-core views of the Jewish pharisees who were themselves holding up the Torah as the verbatim word of God, which Jesus clearly rejected himself as he obviously rejected many of the things in the Torah and replaced them with totally opposing teachings.

So there's an irony associated with Judaism in general.

Unfortunately, if the Torah is taken as the basis of "Judaism", and viewed as the sacred word of God as the Jewish Pharisees obviously viewed it in Jesus' day, then from that perspective Judaism = a believe that the Torah or Old Testament is indeed the verbatim word of God.

So there is a fundamental conflict within the history of Judaism itself.

There's the Pharisees view of the Torah that it should be held up as the verbatim laws of God. And there's Jesus' view that the Pharisees are hypocrites and that the Torah represents their laws, not God's laws.

An so this clash existed right there, between Jesus and the Jewish Pharisees.

And, as I say, the greatest irony in all of history is that Christianity ended up melding the two together. They accepted Jesus as the being the son of God, and they also accept the Pharisees stance that the Torah is the verbatim word of God.

This is why I say that Jesus was first crucified physically when he was nailed to a pole, and then crucified a second time in the New Testament when he was metaphorically nailed to the Torah.

He was crucified twice. First, crucified in the flesh, by the Pharisees, and then crucified in spirit, in by the Christians who nailed him right back onto the Torah, a collection of writings that he clearly did not accept as being the verbatim word of God.

So I'm stuck with history.

Even though I understand you views, I'm still stuck with the fact that the Pharisees also represented "Judaism" too. And they were holding up the Torah as the verbatim Word of God. Why do you think they were constantly wanting to stone Jesus to death for blaspheme against the Torah?

So Judaism cannot be as cut-and-dried as you may like. There were clearly different views on Judaism back in the days of Jesus. Jesus disagreed with the Pharisees on how Judaism should be view.

So this is a very deeply profound problem. Not one that you can easily solve by simply suggesting that you tend to agree with Jesus' and reject the views of the Pharisees.

But in a real sense that's precisely what you're doing.

You're just taking sides in a far deeper historical conundrum.

I actually agree with your views. I also suggest that this is the view where Jesus was coming from as well. Jesus himself did not worship the Torah as the verbatim word of God, that's crystal clear by the teachings that are attributed to this man. Even he rejected many of the directives and commandments that were attributed to the God in the Torah.

So you can't just claim that there is one version of Judaism and that it's simply misunderstood. That's simply not historically correct. The Jewish Pharisees of Jesus' day would certainly argue against your stance on that. They were clearly holding up the Torah as the verbatim "Word of God", and demanding that anyone who disagrees with it should be stoned to death.

How could you deny that when in the New Testament the Jewish Pharisees were always threatening to stone Jesus to death for blaspheme?

Clearly the Jewish Pharisees were taking these instructions of the Torah quite literally as being concrete instructions from God.

So if you're trying to claim that all Jews did not take the Torah so literally, I think you'll have a problem with that.

[cnorman18]

Divine Insight,

Start another thread if you like. If I decide to remain active here, I might take a run at the long list of misconceptions and outright errors in your post. I don't plan to do it on this thread.

I make no promises.

[Divine Insight]

Divine Insight,

Start another thread if you like. If I decide to remain active here, I might take a run at the long list of misconceptions and outright errors in your post. I don't plan to do it on this thread.

I make no promises.

I think that would be great. It's a topic well worth discussing I think.

So here you go my friend,

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 265#508265

I would actually like to take this head-to-head with you someday. I think we could keep better track of the points we are making in a head-to-head thread.

But starting this on the open forums where everyone can chime in would be a good brainstorming session.

So don't go away, we NEED your input on this topic that is so near and dear to your heart.

[Mr. LongView]

I agee with Charles...

Yet, I still try to put my two cents worth in from time to time....
(With different handles.)

If I can stomach it.