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Is eye witness testimony enough?
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Justin108 Offline
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:24 pm  Is eye witness testimony enough? Reply

The whole Bible basically relies either on claims of divine experience or eye witness claims. But are these enough?

If you willingly accept the claims made by these men, then on what grounds do you reject the claims made by people who believe they were abducted by aliens? On what grounds do you reject the claims of people who hear voices? On what grounds do you reject the claims of Bigfoot sightings?

How do you choose which eye witnesses to believe?
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bjs Offline
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:41 pm  Re: Is eye witness testimony enough? Reply

Justin108 wrote:

The whole Bible basically relies either on claims of divine experience or eye witness claims. But are these enough?


Concerning the events which the Bible records, what would be enough?
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Rkrause Offline
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:46 pm  Re: Is eye witness testimony enough? Reply

Justin108 wrote:

The whole Bible basically relies either on claims of divine experience or eye witness claims. But are these enough?

If you willingly accept the claims made by these men, then on what grounds do you reject the claims made by people who believe they were abducted by aliens? On what grounds do you reject the claims of people who hear voices? On what grounds do you reject the claims of Bigfoot sightings?

How do you choose which eye witnesses to believe?


Depends on the person who is listening to the claims whether they believe it or not.

You can tell people anything but you can't control their responses to what you told them.
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Justin108 Offline
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:48 pm  Re: Is eye witness testimony enough? Reply

bjs wrote:

Justin108 wrote:

The whole Bible basically relies either on claims of divine experience or eye witness claims. But are these enough?


Concerning the events which the Bible records, what would be enough?


Personally I think the choice for God to place his "word" in a book is a rediculous choice. If I were God I would merely communicate directly to everyone instead.
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:50 pm  Re: Is eye witness testimony enough? Reply

bjs wrote:

Justin108 wrote:

The whole Bible basically relies either on claims of divine experience or eye witness claims. But are these enough?


Concerning the events which the Bible records, what would be enough?


Emperical evidance and/or a repeatable test or two would be a start.
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:54 pm  Re: Is eye witness testimony enough? Reply

Rkrause wrote:

Justin108 wrote:

The whole Bible basically relies either on claims of divine experience or eye witness claims. But are these enough?

If you willingly accept the claims made by these men, then on what grounds do you reject the claims made by people who believe they were abducted by aliens? On what grounds do you reject the claims of people who hear voices? On what grounds do you reject the claims of Bigfoot sightings?

How do you choose which eye witnesses to believe?


Depends on the person who is listening to the claims whether they believe it or not.
.

I asked specifically how YOU choose what claims to believe. A general answer like this serves no purpose.
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:10 pm  Re: Is eye witness testimony enough? Reply

Justin108 wrote:

The whole Bible basically relies either on claims of divine experience or eye witness claims. But are these enough?

If you willingly accept the claims made by these men, then on what grounds do you reject the claims made by people who believe they were abducted by aliens? On what grounds do you reject the claims of people who hear voices? On what grounds do you reject the claims of Bigfoot sightings?

How do you choose which eye witnesses to believe?


When it comes to the Bible it should be obvious to anyone who reads it that even these authors who claim to be eyewitnesses can't agree with each other. So that doesn't say much for their credibility as eye witnesses.
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:29 pm   Reply

No. Eyewitness testimony is not enough. The eyewitness testimony only reveals what they saw and heard. It is what they believe. However, for our life it is not what others believe that concerns God. It is what we believe that concerns God. It is a personal relationship He seeks. Those whom truly believe do not believe because someone else believed before them, they believe because the have received personal conformation.

Personal conformation comes when we search in earnest for God. When we come to a point in our lives when we need help that is bigger then ourselves. When we are steadfast in our belief that God is not there He will not be there for us. Not because He is not willing but because we are not willing. When we open the door to the possibility that He exists He can then begin to reveal Himself. That is to say as an example: "God, I do not know what to believe. I do not know if you are there or not. I want to know you if you are real. I want your help if you can. I can't do this on my own as I am making a mess of it. If you are there please show me. I want to believe but I am confused. Please help me." You do not have to have faith to have Him come to you. However, we cant expect Him to show us anything if we have dug our heels in claiming he does not exist.
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 9: Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:45 pm   Reply

Cewakiyelo wrote:

No. Eyewitness testimony is not enough. The eyewitness testimony only reveals what they saw and heard. It is what they believe. However, for our life it is not what others believe that concerns God. It is what we believe that concerns God. It is a personal relationship He seeks. Those whom truly believe do not believe because someone else believed before them, they believe because the have received personal conformation.

Personal conformation comes when we search in earnest for God. When we come to a point in our lives when we need help that is bigger then ourselves. When we are steadfast in our belief that God is not there He will not be there for us. Not because He is not willing but because we are not willing. When we open the door to the possibility that He exists He can then begin to reveal Himself. That is to say as an example: "God, I do not know what to believe. I do not know if you are there or not. I want to know you if you are real. I want your help if you can. I can't do this on my own as I am making a mess of it. If you are there please show me. I want to believe but I am confused. Please help me." You do not have to have faith to have Him come to you. However, we cant expect Him to show us anything if we have dug our heels in claiming he does not exist.

But what if he has never heard of God? How can he be expected to form a relationship with God if he doesn't know he exists? You cannot say he should read the Bible because, as you just said, eye-witness testimony is not enough so he would have no reason to believe the claims of the Bible or of anyone for that matter so no matter what, he will have no reason to believe in God. Even if someone told him about god, he still would have no reason to believe since it would be just another witness claim. Is this man doomed to be without God then since he would have to believe in God BEFORE he can start a relationship with him. How will this man come to believe in God?
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 10: Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:23 pm   Reply

Cewakiyelo wrote:

No. Eyewitness testimony is not enough. The eyewitness testimony only reveals what they saw and heard. It is what they believe. However, for our life it is not what others believe that concerns God. It is what we believe that concerns God. It is a personal relationship He seeks. Those whom truly believe do not believe because someone else believed before them, they believe because the have received personal conformation.

Personal conformation comes when we search in earnest for God. When we come to a point in our lives when we need help that is bigger then ourselves. When we are steadfast in our belief that God is not there He will not be there for us. Not because He is not willing but because we are not willing. When we open the door to the possibility that He exists He can then begin to reveal Himself. That is to say as an example: "God, I do not know what to believe. I do not know if you are there or not. I want to know you if you are real. I want your help if you can. I can't do this on my own as I am making a mess of it. If you are there please show me. I want to believe but I am confused. Please help me." You do not have to have faith to have Him come to you. However, we cant expect Him to show us anything if we have dug our heels in claiming he does not exist.


The problem with your proposal here is that this would need to be true of every religion on earth.

Either that, or the vast majority of religious people would need to be totally insincere fakes.

For example, if Christianity is true, then not only would all Muslims and Jews need to be faking their sincerity to have a sincere relationship with God, but so would all other non-Abrahamic religious people. Every Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist, Wiccan, etc, including every religion on Earth, would all need to be faking their sincere desire to know God.

That is totally unreasonable, IMHO.

In fact, not only would this need to apply to non-Christians, if Christianity were true, but it would also need to apply to all the disagreeing denominations of Christianity.

How could the same God be simultaneously guiding the beliefs of Christian who have dramatically different ideas concerning what this God supposedly expects from people?

So this ideal simply can't hold water.

Unless, like I say, it's applied to all religions throughout the world. But that would violate the Christian claim that people can only get to God by confessing that the Hebrew Jesus was the one and only Christ sent by God to pay for our sins, etc.

So this idea necessarily has to be false.

It wouldn't just rule out atheists as having refused to seek God, but it would violate the sincerity of all spiritual and religious people who do not believe in the Hebrew rumors.

Moreover, listen to what you, yourself have said in your own words:

Cewakiyelo wrote:

When we open the door to the possibility that He exists He can then begin to reveal Himself. That is to say as an example: "God, I do not know what to believe. I do not know if you are there or not. I want to know you if you are real. I want your help if you can. I can't do this on my own as I am making a mess of it. If you are there please show me. I want to believe but I am confused. Please help me." You do not have to have faith to have Him come to you. However, we cant expect Him to show us anything if we have dug our heels in claiming he does not exist.


Many atheists on these very boards are constantly asking for any sign or evidence at all that this God might exist.

Do you think they haven't asked a potential God himself for this same type of confirmation?

In fact, many atheists actually were quite religious before they became atheists. They actually became atheists precisely because they weren't getting any answers, signals, or feedback from this God.

Also you say:

Cewakiyelo wrote:

Personal conformation comes when we search in earnest for God. When we come to a point in our lives when we need help that is bigger then ourselves.


When we come to a point in our lives when we need help that is bigger than ourselves?

If that were true then no one would have any reason to seek God until they needed help with something they are convinced they have no control over themselves.

However, the problem is that this God apparently never pans out in that department.

I'm even a religious person myself. And I used to be a Christian, I asked many time "In Jesus Name" for God's help. There were even times when I asked God directly since Jesus' name didn't appear to be of any help.

What does it say in this hearsay rumors about Jesus?

They claim that Jesus said the following:

John.14:13-14 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

So how many times do we need to ask? And how many times do we need to see these words fail before we start to realize that there isn't any truth in them?

Also getting back to my original point about your last quote:

What would I need help with now that is bigger than myself?

Everyone who was ever close to me that I loved is now dead.

I certainly don't need help with any of that. Jesus has already failed to come through on those counts violating the promise he was rumored to have offered.

The only thing that I might need help with at this point is to avoid my own death. But why would I even want to do that? On the contrary, I'm looking forward to it.

So at this point I don't even need a God.

I think I can die on my own naturally. Cool
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