Certain tactics

[Dantalion]

I would just like to say, that in my humble opinion, 'the community' here must look into this matter.
In general, certain people and certain tactics just serve to anger people, discredit genuine believers and make a mockery of the debate forum.

This isn't a 'theists vs atheists' thing, it's about intellectual honesty, respect for the principles of 'the debate'.
This is of course not for me to point out, but every rational person here can see there are users that SO often break the same rules (in this case, 5, 7, 9 and sometimes even 13) I find it baffling they're not acted upon.

[otseng]

We can certainly discuss this and I'm open to any suggestions on how to improve the forum. And as a reminder, as we discuss this, let's speak in general terms without referencing particular posters.

As for the rules, there is more leniency on posters not supporting claims. However, there is not much leniency on personal attacks. So, it generally takes more time to censure a person who makes unsupported claims than someone who attacks another.

I'm all for raising the quality of debates on the forum. But how can it be done and still make the forum open to all?

[playhavock]

I'm in favor of rasing the bar on making claims with zero reasion to think they are true, or just posting a youtube link to "prove" something is true. This is not highbar debate its really lack luster debate, people can do better. Bleep I can do better but I think that people tend to only do as good as they are pushed to do, some of course do there best all the time, but thats the exeption to the norm. Clearly not everyone understands logic or sceince or relgion or whatever, but making wild sweeping claims with zero to no proof or silly proof (like one video from youtube) should not be "debate" but seems to goto the random ramblings pit
Bleep even sometimes my rants are not debates and I'm like "what went wrong?" and I look at it and go "oh. right." after awhile has passed.

[McCulloch]

I'm all for raising the quality of debates on the forum. But how can it be done and still make the forum open to all?

That is the problem. We want to keep the forum open to all (excepting those who are deliberately uncivil), then that must include those who cannot seem to follow an argument, provide cogent reasoning or respond to thoughtful and valid criticism. Without being an educational facility, I cannot see how we can do too much in this area.

[Angel]

We can certainly discuss this and I'm open to any suggestions on how to improve the forum. And as a reminder, as we discuss this, let's speak in general terms without referencing particular posters.

As for the rules, there is more leniency on posters not supporting claims. However, there is not much leniency on personal attacks. So, it generally takes more time to censure a person who makes unsupported claims than someone who attacks another.

I'm all for raising the quality of debates on the forum. But how can it be done and still make the forum open to all?

Just as long as you keep the rules in place to support all claims with evidence and/or logic or to specify that it's an OPINION or retract your claim, then I don't see any problem that can't be taken care of through DEBATE and some moderator intervention. The only thing you can do more is to make the standards of evidence higher so that way everyone who is obligated to provide scientifically peer-reviewed sources/evidence and/or logic to back their claims. That would probably slow down traffic in the Christianity and Apologetics section which seems to be the most active section on this forum and the main attraction for people to join here to begin with. What actual scientific evidence is there for God to begin with and w/out that everything stems from assuming that a God exists and certain other aspects of Christianity.

I don't see any big problem with the debates here, especially when you compare it to other forums. From my experience, this forum isn't perfect (what is perfect?) but it's still one of the best out there. If it's just ONE person you guys are referring to then I doubt one person would be enough to serve as a representative sample of the debates on this forum. It's probably not a problem that the "ignore" feature can't fix.

[TheTruth101]

I would just like to say, that in my humble opinion, 'the community' here must look into this matter.
In general, certain people and certain tactics just serve to anger people, discredit genuine believers and make a mockery of the debate forum.

This isn't a 'theists vs atheists' thing, it's about intellectual honesty, respect for the principles of 'the debate'.
This is of course not for me to point out, but every rational person here can see there are users that SO often break the same rules (in this case, 5, 7, 9 and sometimes even 13) I find it baffling they're not acted upon.

This post was made on another thread (its been removed now) by Dantalion in reponse to a poster that made a thread with personal flamebait and accusations.
The thread read "Truth101, A troll" or something like that. LiamOS saw the thread and closed it down immediately. (Looks like it was copy and pasted here for the most part)

Anyway, I would like to say this, there have been about 5 threads so far that were in direct flamebait of myself. I have never personally attacked an Atheist poster FIRST. It always came from a retalition from a poster saying such things, like.. well, regular members here know what.

The things that I say and claim I have posted with sources that back up my claims. If the sources state the things that I say, then I am not the one to blame. I fully belive into it, and provide the sources so that others can see its not a personal opinion, but rather comes from a sources that has expertise in the cartain areas that I speak of.

Other than that, many posters (mostly Atheists) are learning to see the holes and gaps and tend to group up on a partuclar member. I am fine with it, but the problem is, when the "reporting" gets going, its 5 reports to 1.

The main problem with this is that moderators tend to look at only the specific "lines" of personal attacks without considering what was involved as a whole to get it TO that point. If they consider the thread from beggining, they will see that its ALWAYS the atheists that start with accusation and personal flamebait.
I tend to retaliate, and when that happens, the Atheists report the posts in a 5 to 1 odd, again.

In most of the times, (in debates with Atheists), they start blowing up and once that is not heard, they start to accuse of misrepresentation when the source is offered. When the sources are offered, instead of acknowledging that there are OTHERS out there who think the way I do WITH experitise in their professional career, it still becomes irrelevent. The flame bait starts taking place in the thread that I am involved with, then once that gets played out sort of speak, they start resorting to a COMPLETE THREADS dedicated to myself with a nature of personal accusations and flamebait. (As evident of 5-6 threads that were solely dedicated to me)

With my position here on this forum as standing with God and the Bible to begin with, and when a fundamental science disagrees with God in nature to begin with, it is difficult to offer sources from scientific peer review journals that stands 100% with my posistion since I am always considering God, philosophy and governmental laws to begin with.
Not that it matters, (since I have offered other sources) the problem once again begins when they start flamebaiting the source itself, and its rather acknowledged by me trhat its rather personal. (since I have debated with alot of atheists here and has become a norm)

So, to fix this problem, I want to suggest that moderators look into the thread (atleast couple pages).

[Divine Insight]

If it's just ONE person you guys are referring to then I doubt one person would be enough to serve as a representative sample of the debates on this forum. It's probably not a problem that the "ignore" feature can't fix.

I currently have two people on ignore. I won't say who they are. And I would truly rather have no one on ignore. But I've found both of these people to be highly arrogant and accusatory in terms of their evangelical and proselytizing behavior.

Placing them on ignore does not really do much. All it does is collapse their posts making the forums look prettier. But they can still read my posts and they often do read my posts and quote them.

Also, when they do quote my posts they often make uncivil and accusatory attacks toward me. I have even reported them for these personal attacks while I still have them on ignore without responding to them publicly at all. Doing my part to try to keep the forums clean of these kinds of personal attacks and rebuttals.

Yet I seldom, if ever, see them cited for a report. Once in a while they will receive a "moderator comment", but I have yet to see them receive a moderator warning due to my reporting them.

So even reporting them seems to be in vain.

~~~~~

I don't want to say who these people are, but at the same time I feel that it's important to mention why I see their posts as being problematic.

To begin with they are both "preaching" rather than debating.

They are also, IMHO, constantly accusing and insinuating that non-believers are purposefully refusing to cower down to their Gods, and are therefore both immoral, as well as being headed for damnation. These kind of insinuations are non-stop. Not just toward me, but toward everyone else they post to as well.

This is the other thing about the "ignore" feature. It doesn't prevent their posts from showing up as quotes in other people's posts who are arguing with them. So I see these other arguments going on constantly and I see that they are treating everyone with the same uncivil arrogance that they attempt to shove onto me.

I also see these other people becoming upset and frustrated with this kind of constant proselytizing and preaching. As a recently closed thread reveals.

There's clearly a problem that is affecting more than just me to be sure.

I'm doing my best to ignore these evangelical extremists. Yet, ironically this is a religion debate forum and the whole purpose of this forum is to debate religions.

However, I feel that the two people I have personally placed on ignore are not even worthy of debate. In part because they don't debate, all they do is continually preach non-stop without any justification for their religious opinions.

And I must also add, that IMHO, in all the years that I've been debating "Christianity" the particular outrageous views that these two posters hold out are so unorthodox and uncommon to Christianity that as far as I'm concerned they aren't even talking about Christianity. They are attempting to preach some truly weird and unorthodox versions of it.

They demand that they can "back-up" all their claims using scriptures. But the problem with that is that the Biblical scriptures are so full of insane parts that it's truly easy to "back-up" almost any claim anyone would like to make about these stories.

And then those claims just deteriorate into totally meaningless arguments over who's interpretations should be accepted. IMHO, those kind of "debates" aren't even debates at all. All they are is blatant arguments over personal interpretations of vague obscure scriptures that could never be used as "evidence" for anything really.

This is why I have these two guys on ignore right now. They genuinely aren't worth talking to. They are just arguing for basically hateful interpretations of the Bible and constantly proclaiming that their interpretations always WIN.

When the truth is they haven't demonstrated anything more than extreme personal arrogance.

[TheTruth101]

They demand that they can "back-up" all their claims using scriptures. But the problem with that is that the Biblical scriptures are so full of insane parts that it's truly easy to "back-up" almost any claim anyone would like to make about these stories.

So it's noted that I do offer sources as to things I say. I only know that Divine Insght is talking about me as ONE of the ignored two people on his list because on another thread, he mentioned it as such.

The things about condemnation and enslavement and such, I am only stating that because thats what the Bible says. And when they cant refute such facts, they dismiss the whole source (in this case the Bible) when it's a christianity debating site to begin with.

What should be an intelligible debtae form this perspective is that the opposition offer sources themselves (biblical scriptures) to back up WHAT they are trying to get across and claim it as false.

Instead again, they resort to personal flamebait. A personal example would be putting one "on the spot" when it very clear that regular forum members here know that I am one of the ones that speak of heavens and hell and the order and etc.

So, this is rather counted towards a personal flambait. If the intender was truly in speaking of finding a better "resoultion" as to the forum, then all he had to say was " I use the ignore feature".

And that was all thats needed. And as you can cleary note here Mods, this is retalliated post from me retelliating as to the personal flamebait once again that THEY initiated to begin with.

[Divine Insight]

They demand that they can "back-up" all their claims using scriptures. But the problem with that is that the Biblical scriptures are so full of insane parts that it's truly easy to "back-up" almost any claim anyone would like to make about these stories.

So it's noted that I do offer sources as to things I say. I only know that Divine Insght is talking about me as ONE of the ignored two people on his list because on another thread, he mentioned it as such.

Scriptures do not amount to "sources". Especially when all it amounts to is arguing over personal interpretations.

The things about condemnation and enslavement and such, I am only stating that because thats what the Bible says. And when they cant refute such facts, they dismiss the whole source (in this case the Bible) when it's a christianity debating site to begin with.

Everyone is aware that the Biblical God is a jealous God who is chomping at the bit to condemn everyone who fails to worship him or believe in him.

No one will argue with that.

What should be an intelligible debtae form this perspective is that the opposition offer sources themselves (biblical scriptures) to back up WHAT they are trying to get across and claim it as false.

This is your personal perspective here. This forum is not a "Bible Study Group" where everyone assumes that the Bible is "The Word of God" and tries to decipher what it supposedly has to say.

I'm sure you wish it could be reduced to that.

But many people on these forum are far more concerned with debating why these ancient fables should even be considered to be the "Word of God".

What you do is presume that it is the "Word of God" and then pretend that you know what God has to say whilst everyone else is totally ignorant and can't understand God.

That is NOT a legitimate debate, IMHO. And this is precisely why it doesn't even pay to try to discuss anything with you intelligently because you refuse to get past that mindset.

All you do it preach. And pretend like you understand God whilst no one else can.

Instead again, they resort to personal flamebait. A personal example would be putting one "on the spot" when it very clear that regular forum members here know that I am one of the ones that speak of heavens and hell and the order and etc.

I'm not concerned with your evangelical problems. As far as I'm concerned you don't debate, you preach.

I just gleaned over the rules and I don't see where this site makes preaching against the rules. I'm surprised that they don't. Many other sites I've been on make it clear that constant preaching or evangelizing will not be considered legitimate debate.

So, this is rather counted towards a personal flambait. If the intender was truly in speaking of finding a better "resoultion" as to the forum, then all he had to say was " I use the ignore feature".

And that was all thats needed. And as you can cleary note here Mods, this is retalliated post from me retelliating as to the personal flamebait once again that THEY initiated to begin with.

Hogwash.

I purposefully did not mention names. You are the one who is jumping in here intentionally inciting inflammatory accusations.

But now that you've opened the door to it, I personally agree that you incite flame-bait conversations. And this is precisely why I have you on ignore. As far as I'm concerned are intentionally looking to make trouble.

As far as I'm concerned you aren't out to bring anyone to "God".

You are out to use religion to purposeful incite hostility and insult.

The mere fact that the Bible incites this kind of thing is one reason why I would love to see it abolished from humanity.

I avoid your posts precisely because you do incite purposeful hostility and I don't wish to become associated with it.

I'm responding to you here and now, precisely because this thread topic was spawned by your presence here. And my original post was in reply to how utterly useless the ignore feature truly is.

I got the email that you had quoted me in this thread along with the text of your reply. So I came back to back up my original position.

Now I'm going to return back to ignoring you. And now at least everyone can know precisely why I am ignoring you. You're a troublemaker and I want no parts of your troubles. I don't need any citations caused by conversing with you.

You aren't worth it.

[TheTruth101]

They demand that they can "back-up" all their claims using scriptures. But the problem with that is that the Biblical scriptures are so full of insane parts that it's truly easy to "back-up" almost any claim anyone would like to make about these stories.

So it's noted that I do offer sources as to things I say. I only know that Divine Insght is talking about me as ONE of the ignored two people on his list because on another thread, he mentioned it as such.

Scriptures do not amount to "sources". Especially when all it amounts to is arguing over personal interpretations.

The things about condemnation and enslavement and such, I am only stating that because thats what the Bible says. And when they cant refute such facts, they dismiss the whole source (in this case the Bible) when it's a christianity debating site to begin with.

Everyone is aware that the Biblical God is a jealous God who is chomping at the bit to condemn everyone who fails to worship him or believe in him.

No one will argue with that.

What should be an intelligible debtae form this perspective is that the opposition offer sources themselves (biblical scriptures) to back up WHAT they are trying to get across and claim it as false.

This is your personal perspective here. This forum is not a "Bible Study Group" where everyone assumes that the Bible is "The Word of God" and tries to decipher what it supposedly has to say.

I'm sure you wish it could be reduced to that.

But many people on these forum are far more concerned with debating why these ancient fables should even be considered to be the "Word of God".

What you do is presume that it is the "Word of God" and then pretend that you know what God has to say whilst everyone else is totally ignorant and can't understand God.

That is NOT a legitimate debate, IMHO. And this is precisely why it doesn't even pay to try to discuss anything with you intelligently because you refuse to get past that mindset.

All you do it preach. And pretend like you understand God whilst no one else can.

Instead again, they resort to personal flamebait. A personal example would be putting one "on the spot" when it very clear that regular forum members here know that I am one of the ones that speak of heavens and hell and the order and etc.

I'm not concerned with your evangelical problems. As far as I'm concerned you don't debate, you preach.

I just gleaned over the rules and I don't see where this site makes preaching against the rules. I'm surprised that they don't. Many other sites I've been on make it clear that constant preaching or evangelizing will not be considered legitimate debate.

So, this is rather counted towards a personal flambait. If the intender was truly in speaking of finding a better "resoultion" as to the forum, then all he had to say was " I use the ignore feature".

And that was all thats needed. And as you can cleary note here Mods, this is retalliated post from me retelliating as to the personal flamebait once again that THEY initiated to begin with.

Hogwash.

I purposefully did not mention names. You are the one who is jumping in here intentionally inciting inflammatory accusations.

But now that you've opened the door to it, I personally agree that you incite flame-bait conversations. And this is precisely why I have you on ignore. As far as I'm concerned are intentionally looking to make trouble.

As far as I'm concerned you aren't out to bring anyone to "God".

You are out to use religion to purposeful incite hostility and insult.

The mere fact that the Bible incites this kind of thing is one reason why I would love to see it abolished from humanity.

I avoid your posts precisely because you do incite purposeful hostility and I don't wish to become associated with it.

I'm responding to you here and now, precisely because this thread topic was spawned by your presence here. And my original post was in reply to how utterly useless the ignore feature truly is.

I got the email that you had quoted me in this thread along with the text of your reply. So I came back to back up my original position.

Now I'm going to return back to ignoring you. And now at least everyone can know precisely why I am ignoring you. You're a troublemaker and I want no parts of your troubles. I don't need any citations caused by conversing with you.

You aren't worth it.

I'm sorry divine insight put the last part of the post is really funny. (I honestly loled)


C&A section, the core of it is debating Christianity. Christianity comes with a bible. It's common sense one has to bring a scriptural reference as to the debate that's being done in C&A section.

Bible study section is there to study the scriptures. C&A section is to debate Christianity, and again, Christianity comes with the bible.

As you can clearly see moderators, he said something like "Hebrew God is a discusting jealous God" etc.

When I hear that, ofcourse I'm going to defend my God, and since "Hebrew God is a discusting jealous God" I am going to retalliate again by saying, that's your personal opinion.

That's all. (I hope mods see again here a prime example of what's going on).

I am not here to insult on a personal level, I am here to let leople aware of Gods existence, and that fits perfectly under C&A section as well as the bible study section.
Everything I said is clearly scriptures in the bible.

It's a Christianity debating site, the main purpose of this forum is about debating stance of Christianity. (I would assume by the forum main address)