Can the Laws of Nature be temporarily altered or suspended

[ytrewq]

Modern science is based on the assumption that the so-called Laws of Nature are fixed, and that temporary and/or localized variations or suspensions do not occur.

A supernatural event may be defined as one that could only occur if the Laws of Nature were temporarily altered or suspended, so the question being asked is essentially the same as whether supernatural events can occur.

Here are some examples of supernatural events under this definition.

(a) You are holding a heavy (10kg) stone. Suddenly you feel the stone become lighter, then weightless, then it starts pulling upwards. In surprise, you let go, and the stone falls upwards, away from the earth rather than towards it, and accelerates upwards into the sky and out of sight. In scientific terms, the Law of Gravitational Attraction has been temporarily altered (reversed) for this stone. Is this possible?

(b) A massive (3000kg, or 3 ton) tree branch has fallen on your child. Although the main weight has been taken on the ground, your child is nonetheless pinned between the branch and the ground, and screaming out that they cannot breath. You attempt to lift the branch, but it weighs 3000kg, so you cannot lift it, but of course you try anyway. Only a supernatural event can help you and save the life of your child. The Law of Gravity could be temporarily altered, so just for a few seconds, the branch weighed only 50kg. Is this possible? Alternatively, you could temporarily acquire superhuman strength, and for a few seconds be able to lift the 3000kg, which would normally snap your tendons or bones. Is this possible?

(c) Your mobile phone stops working, but there is nothing whatsoever physically wrong with it. Instead, one of the Laws of Physics that make computers work become temporarily altered or suspended such that your computer stops working. Is this possible?

All of the $100 notes in your wallet sponaneously change into $10 notes, or your gold ingot spontaneously changes into a steel ingot, etc. Is this possible?

In my opinion, the answer to all these questions must surely be NO. As far as science is concerend the answer most certainly is NO, for all of the scientific knowledge gained over the past 200 years depends on fundamental Laws of nature being stable and reproducible, at different times and in different locations. It would be either a brave or foolish person that would dismiss the past 200 years of scientific knowledge with a wave of the hand.

However, regardless of what science says, through human experience, the very society in which we live has de-facto already answered answered NO to questions of this type. For example, our legal system will not (and could not possibly) allow or dispute evidence on the basis of a supernatural event having occured. Society would simply disintegrate into chaos if we had to seriously entertain the possibility of all potential supernatural events. Futhermore, almost every modern machine from cars to phones to computers simply could not work unless the underlying physical Laws were totally rock solid and reliable. Imagine taking your brand new malfunctioning computer back to the store, only to be told 'I'm terribly sorry sir, but there is nothing physically wrong with your computer. Unfortunately for you, the Laws of Nature upon which it relies for it's operation are unstable. Although unusual, this can happen.' Of course, nobody believes this. Do you?

There is, of course, a temptation to make 'exceptions' for the suspension or alteration of the Laws of Nature, when doing so makes possible an event that you wish to believe is possible. This is really just hypocrisy and wishful thinking. If your pet beliefs are entitled to such an exception, then of course so are mine, and so are everone else's, including the pet beliefs of every crackpot under the sun. Logical debate ceases altogether. Unless we can find evidence to the contrary, and none has ever been found, then (perhaps unfortunately) we need to accept that the Laws of Nature cannot be suspended or altered just because we would like it to be so, and get on with life.

[TheTruth101]

I'm sorry but one who sleeps and dreams is just that. There are no laws within a dream simply because we cant predict what events we will dream. And in our dreams we live through it, breathe etc.

As far as the physical matters go, an Ant lifting 50 times of its weight is just that. Sometimes when they sense an urgency of attack, the "footsolidiers" lift up to 100 times to protect the queen. That's double their normal weight carriage, hence it can be said a supernatural phenomenen.

[ytrewq]

I'm sorry but one who sleeps and dreams is just that. There are no laws within a dream simply because we cant predict what events we will dream. And in our dreams we live through it, breathe etc.

As far as the physical matters go, an Ant lifting 50 times of its weight is just that. Sometimes when they sense an urgency of attack, the "footsolidiers" lift up to 100 times to protect the queen. That's double their normal weight carriage, hence it can be said a supernatural phenomenen.

Dreams are not 'supernatural' because they do not require the suspension or alteration of any Law of nature or science, as far as I know. It is true that science does not fully understand how dreams or the brain (or many things) work, but that does not make such things supernatural.


I commend you for your 'ant' example, but I'm pretty sure that no laws of physics are being broken. It is also true that some insects can jump many times their own height, but again, this is not in contravention of any scientific principle or law, and is actually predicted by what are known as 'scaling laws'. These are remarkable feats of nature, but are not supernatural feats. Actually, I think we would agree that when it is literally a matter of life or death, then we as humans will almost certainly be capable of a feat of physical strength or endurance that we would not normally be capable of. For example, normally I may be able to lift 120kg, but if the alternative was death, I may conceivably be able to lift 200kg, but it would not be possible in any circumstances for me to lift the 3000kg given in my example, because the tensile stength of my tendons and bones would be exceeded. It's the same as asking whether a steel cable with a breaking rating of 2000kg, could ever support a load 30,000kg. The answer is NO. This would be a supernatural event, requiring that the tensile strength of steel was temporarily increased by more than a factor of ten. No. This cannot and does not happen in the world and universe that we happen to live in.

I do agree with you though that as curious and intelligent beings, we should always be on the lookout for verifiable feats that may apparently contravene well established science, and your clever ant example is worth looking into. A similar example is the observed ability of some insects to jump many times their own height. Much of the explanation lies with what are known as 'scaling laws', which predict the (often counter intuitive) properties of a machine when it is scaled linearly with 'all else equal'. Here is a simple example that gives the flavour of what is going on. Drop a 50mm long mouse onto concrete from a height of 5000mm (ie, 100 times it's length) and it will probably sustain no injuries at all. Now drop a 1.8m high human from a height of 1800m (ie, 100 times our height) onto concrete and you will be splattered into total oblivion. Why? Interestingly, if you drop a human from even the same absolute height of 5m onto concrete then substantial injury will occur. Why? The answer is NOT because mouse bones are made of a stronger material than human bones, and the general principle is also true for the scaling of all objects, not just animals. In fact, this result, is predicted by the scaling laws of engineering, and your apparently supernatural ants and my jumping insects are largely explained in the same way. There is nothing supernatural going on.

Do you (and others) agree that the particular examples of supernatural events given in my original posting have never been observed, and nor do we expect them to ever be observed?

[TheTruth101]

@Ytewrq,

You can see the supernatural manifesting in everyday Sports games.

We call it momentum swing.

Many times during a basketball game you call coaches calling timeout to kill the momentum on the other side. Since, because if the coach lets it go theyt know for certain they will be outscored by double if not triple.

You can also clearly see it at the recent football game ravens vs. the 49ers where the ravens coach was furious that the lights went out during the third quater because it killed his teams momentum swing.

Mementum is something supernatural because you cant explain it, however it progresses in reality.

[JoeyKnothead]

..
We call it momentum swing.
...

You can also clearly see it at the recent football game ravens vs. the 49ers where the ravens coach was furious that the lights went out during the third quater because it killed his teams momentum swing.

Ask them niners how proud they are of God and his "momentum swings".

[ytrewq]

@Ytewrq,

You can see the supernatural manifesting in everyday Sports games.

We call it momentum swing.

Many times during a basketball game you call coaches calling timeout to kill the momentum on the other side. Since, because if the coach lets it go theyt know for certain they will be outscored by double if not triple.

You can also clearly see it at the recent football game ravens vs. the 49ers where the ravens coach was furious that the lights went out during the third quater because it killed his teams momentum swing.

Mementum is something supernatural because you cant explain it, however it progresses in reality.

Hi there Truth,

Read the original posting. Something is not supernatural just because science does not understand exactly how it works. There are lots and lots and lots of things that science does not understand exactly how they work, like dreams or the human brain, but that does not in itself make them supernatural.

I have defined a supernatural event as being an event that requires the temporary suspension or alteration of well-established, fundamental laws of nature or properties of matter.

We may not fully understand the 'momentum swings' of which you speak, but I'm pretty sure they don't contradict any laws of nature, so they are not supernatural.

[TheTruth101]

@Ytewrq,

You can see the supernatural manifesting in everyday Sports games.

We call it momentum swing.

Many times during a basketball game you call coaches calling timeout to kill the momentum on the other side. Since, because if the coach lets it go theyt know for certain they will be outscored by double if not triple.

You can also clearly see it at the recent football game ravens vs. the 49ers where the ravens coach was furious that the lights went out during the third quater because it killed his teams momentum swing.

Mementum is something supernatural because you cant explain it, however it progresses in reality.

Hi there Truth,

Read the original posting. Something is not supernatural just because science does not understand exactly how it works. There are lots and lots and lots of things that science does not understand exactly how they work, like dreams or the human brain, but that does not in itself make them supernatural.

I have defined a supernatural event as being an event that requires the temporary suspension or alteration of well-established, fundamental laws of nature or properties of matter.

We may not fully understand the 'momentum swings' of which you speak, but I'm pretty sure they don't contradict any laws of nature, so they are not supernatural.

Physical laws being bent, refer to Emily rose. During her exorcism, she had super human strength so they had to tie her down on a bed. Three pastors couldn't hold her down.

[Star]

Physical laws being bent, refer to Emily rose. During her exorcism, she had super human strength so they had to tie her down on a bed. Three pastors couldn't hold her down.

Emily Rose is a fictional character. We've told you this before, and yet you insist on nattering on about her.

Well guess what? Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall and had a big fall. Explain why they couldn't put him back together again, despite there being magic in make belief land.

[TheTruth101]

Physical laws being bent, refer to Emily rose. During her exorcism, she had super human strength so they had to tie her down on a bed. Three pastors couldn't hold her down.

Emily Rose is a fictional character. We've told you this before, and yet you insist on nattering on about her.

Well guess what? Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall and had a big fall. Explain why they couldn't put him back together again, despite there being magic in make belief land.

What do you mean she's a fake character? There was even a court case of her that went on for couple monthes for homicide negligence. Who are you kidding? And who's this 'we' you refer to?
Speak for yourself.

[TheTruth101]

Physical laws being bent, refer to Emily rose. During her exorcism, she had super human strength so they had to tie her down on a bed. Three pastors couldn't hold her down.

Emily Rose is a fictional character. We've told you this before, and yet you insist on nattering on about her.

Well guess what? Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall and had a big fall. Explain why they couldn't put him back together again, despite there being magic in make belief land.

Edit. Double post.