How Evil was John Calvin?

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Ooberman
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How Evil was John Calvin?

Post #1

Post by Ooberman »

Some background:
John Calvin (French: Jean Calvin, born Jehan Cauvin: 10 July 1509 – 27 May 1564) was an influential French theologian and pastor during the Protestant Reformation. He was a principal figure in the development of the system of Christian theology later called Calvinism. Originally trained as a humanist lawyer, he broke from the Roman Catholic Church around 1530. After religious tensions provoked a violent uprising against Protestants in France, Calvin fled to Basel, Switzerland, where he published the first edition of his seminal work The Institutes of the Christian Religion in 1536.
From wiki


The turning point in Calvin's fortunes occurred when Michael Servetus, a fugitive from ecclesiastical authorities, appeared in Geneva on 13 August 1553. Servetus was a Spanish physician and Protestant theologian who boldly criticised the doctrine of the Trinity and paedobaptism (infant baptism).[48] In July 1530 he disputed with Johannes Oecolampadius in Basel and was eventually expelled. He went to Strasbourg where he published a pamphlet against the Trinity. Bucer publicly refuted it and asked Servetus to leave. After returning to Basel, Servetus published Two Books of Dialogues on the Trinity (Latin: Dialogorum de Trinitate libri duo) which caused a sensation among Reformers and Catholics alike. The Inquisition in Spain ordered his arrest.[49]
Calvin and Servetus were first brought into contact for the first time in 1546 through a common acquaintance, Jean Frellon of Lyon; they exchanged letters debating doctrine; Calvin used a pseudonym as Charles d' Espeville, while Servetus left his unsigned.[50] Eventually, Calvin lost patience and refused to respond; by this time Servetus had written around thirty letters to Calvin. Calvin was particularly outraged when Servetus sent him a copy of the Institutes of the Christian Religion heavily annotated with arguments pointing to errors in the book. When Servetus mentioned that he would come to Geneva if Calvin agreed, Calvin wrote a letter to Farel on 13 February 1546 noting that if Servetus were to come, he would not assure him safe conduct: "for if he came, as far as my authority goes, I would not let him leave alive."[51]
In 1553, Calvin's front man, Guillaume de Trie, sent letters trying to address the French Inquisition to Servetus.[52] Calling him a "Spanish-Portuguese", suspecting and accusing him[53] of his recently proved Jewish converso origin.[54][55][56] De Trie wrote down that "his proper name is Michael Servetus, but he currently calls himself Villeneufve, practising medicine. He stayed for some time in Lyon, and now he is living in Vienne."[57] When the inquisitor-general of France learned that Servetus was hiding in Vienne, according to Calvin under an assumed name, he contacted Cardinal François de Tournon, the secretary of the archbishop of Lyon, to take up the matter. Servetus was arrested and taken in for questioning. His letters to Calvin were presented as evidence of heresy, but he denied having written them, and later said he was not sure it was his handwriting. He said, after swearing before the holy gospel, that "he was Michel De Villeneuve Doctor in Medicine about 42 years old, native of Tudela of the kingdom of Navarre, a city under the obedience to the Emperor".[58] The following day he said: "..although he was not Servetus he assumed the person of Servet for debating with Calvin".[59] He managed to escape from prison, and the Catholic authorities sentenced him in absentia to death by slow burning.[60]
On his way to Italy, Servetus stopped in Geneva for unknown reasons, where he was recognized and arrested. Calvin's secretary Nicholas de la Fontaine composed a list of accusations that was submitted before the court. The prosecutor was Philibert Berthelier, a member of a libertine family and son of a famous Geneva patriot, and the sessions were led by Pierre Tissot, Perrin's brother-in-law. The libertines allowed the trial to drag on in an attempt to harass Calvin. The difficulty in using Servetus as a weapon against Calvin was that the heretical reputation of Servetus was widespread and most of the cities in Europe were observing and awaiting the outcome of the trial. This posed a dilemma for the libertines, so on 21 August the council decided to write to other Swiss cities for their opinions, thus mitigating their own responsibility for the final decision. While waiting for the responses, the council also asked Servetus if he preferred to be judged in Vienne or in Geneva. He begged to stay in Geneva. On 20 October the replies from Zurich, Basel, Bern, and Schaffhausen were read and the council condemned Servetus as a heretic. The following day he was sentenced to burning at the stake, the same sentence as in Vienne. Calvin and other ministers asked that he be beheaded instead of burnt.[61] This plea was refused and on 27 October, Servetus was burnt alive—atop a pyre of his own books—at the Plateau of Champel at the edge of Geneva.[62]


Imagine having the hand in the execution of someone on this forum, because you thought they were a heretic; because they disagreed with you?

How would that person live with himself unless he was evil to the bone?


How evil was John Calvin?


To drive this point home, one could, today, start accusing a Muslim in Iran of being a closet Jew and that person would be executed according to Sharia Law.

Calvin didn't have Sharia Law, he had Christian Law, but the effect was the same.

Who here would accuse a person of something so petty as having a different religion in order to kill them?


Imagine if you offered to meet someone on this forum, and you found out that the person said, "for if he came, as far as my authority goes, I would not let him leave alive."

I cannot understand how anyone could follow the reasoning of Calvin if his reasoning led him to this bastardized and evil view of the words of Jesus. Particularly the 5 points and the concept of the Elect. It seems to be obviously the delusions of an evil and warped mind.


Or, was Calvin the only true Christian since Jesus? Was Calvin the only one to understand the true Christianity?
Thinking about God's opinions and thinking about your own opinions uses an identical thought process. - Tomas Rees

99percentatheism
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Re: How Evil was John Calvin?

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Post by 99percentatheism »

[Replying to Ooberman]

What's the difference between wanting to put a Christian business owner out of business, effectivley "ruining their life" because they do not believe in the same morality as a materialist-secularist does? (Why do secularists get to legislate their morality but Christians do not?)

How evil is a secularist that believes that a Christian cannot engage the society through the lens of his or her Christian morality?

How evil is the implementation of the secularist pronouncement of the seperation of Church and State? Especially in light of the fact that there is nothing mentioned about it in the Constitution?

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Post #3

Post by JoeyKnothead »

From Post 2:
99percentatheism wrote: What's the difference between wanting to put a Christian business owner out of business, effectivley "ruining their life" because they do not believe in the same morality as a materialist-secularist does?
The secularist does so out of a fear of what may happen to society if discriminatory practices against otherwise decent folks are allowed to continue.

The theist does so out of fear of a god that can't be shown to exist.
99percentatheism wrote: Why do secularists get to legislate their morality but Christians do not?
Secularists win 'em one here and there.

Does 99percentatheism deny that laws pushed by the Christian majority are on the books?
99percentatheism wrote: How evil is a secularist that believes that a Christian cannot engage the society through the lens of his or her Christian morality?
'Pends on how evil that "Christian morality" is found to be.
99percentatheism wrote: How evil is the implementation of the secularist pronouncement of the seperation of Church and State? Especially in light of the fact that there is nothing mentioned about it in the Constitution?
We don't need some ancient document to tell us that theocracy is to be discouraged.

Society didn't just stop evolving or growing after the Constitution was written. We must update our thinking when new data and new situations arise, and efforts to hold onto the past leave us stuck right there in it.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Re: How Evil was John Calvin?

Post #4

Post by tariki »

[Replying to Ooberman]

I was reading a book by Thomas Talbot ("The Inescapable Love of God") in which he stated that in his (i.e. Calvin's) "The Institutes of the Christian Religion", a 1500 page tome, not once is the Biblical verse "God is Love" quoted or referred to.

Not having had the pleasure of reading said tome I am unable to confirm this, but if true it would - at least for me - say something about Calvin's theology and its worth.

However, as far as "how evil" he was, who knows?

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Post #5

Post by ttruscott »

There are no small sins - ALL EVIL IS OF ULTIMATE DISVALUE!

Thinking that someone else's sin is worse than your own is the essence of self righteousness.

Peace, Ted
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: How Evil was John Calvin?

Post #6

Post by Ooberman »

99percentatheism wrote: [Replying to Ooberman]

What's the difference between wanting to put a Christian business owner out of business, effectivley "ruining their life" because they do not believe in the same morality as a materialist-secularist does? (Why do secularists get to legislate their morality but Christians do not?)

How evil is a secularist that believes that a Christian cannot engage the society through the lens of his or her Christian morality?

How evil is the implementation of the secularist pronouncement of the seperation of Church and State? Especially in light of the fact that there is nothing mentioned about it in the Constitution?
Are you seriously defending Calvin by equating free enterprise with killing a man because has a different opinion about a mythical character?
Wth, dude?
Thinking about God's opinions and thinking about your own opinions uses an identical thought process. - Tomas Rees

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Ooberman
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Post #7

Post by Ooberman »

ttruscott wrote: There are no small sins - ALL EVIL IS OF ULTIMATE DISVALUE!

Thinking that someone else's sin is worse than your own is the essence of self righteousness.

Peace, Ted
Oh, save that tripe for someone who cares.

Yes, the sins of Calvin and Hitler were far worse than those of Anne Frank or me. Its objective fact.
Turning all sin into the same thing is absurd. It would give the sinner (everyone, under your idea) no reason to keep from killing or lying or lesser offences.

If all sins are the same, why not just kill your neighbor then ask for forgiveness rather than be jealous of him?

Your theology is rancid. Probably because it came from the bad seed of a bad fruit.
Thinking about God's opinions and thinking about your own opinions uses an identical thought process. - Tomas Rees

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Re: How Evil was John Calvin?

Post #8

Post by TheJoshAbideth »

[Replying to post 2 by 99percentatheism]

There are about 22 and a half things wrong with your post and overall logic here - but I'll address the main one:

The "key" difference is that the business owner has every ability to start over - the dead guy doesn't.

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Post #9

Post by TheJoshAbideth »

[Replying to post 5 by ttruscott]


Would you rather someone pickpocket you or kill you? I would say one of the worst parts of biblical morality is that it does actually - in a very definite way - put both actions on the same level. Doesn't seem very omniscient to me.

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Post #10

Post by Ooberman »

TheJoshAbideth wrote: [Replying to post 5 by ttruscott]


Would you rather someone pickpocket you or kill you? I would say one of the worst parts of biblical morality is that it does actually - in a very definite way - put both actions on the same level. Doesn't seem very omniscient to me.

Yes, it's scary, and even disgusting, to think there are people who walk this Earth believing their Supreme Leader and Moral guide thinks raping and killing a child is no different than cheating in a friendly card game.

Now, it's good they think both are bad... but then they say every one sins. Everyone is a sinner. So, if everyone is doing raping or cheating, what difference does it matter which you do?

All you have to do is ask for forgiveness and God will forgive you, no matter what sin you committed.

This is such a bankrupt theology. It needs to be wiped off the Earth. It needs to be erased from history and ground into dust. Not people, mind you, but the concept.

We need to get through to these people that there is a difference between killing 12 million people and having a little lustful feeling towards a girl in a bikini.
Thinking about God's opinions and thinking about your own opinions uses an identical thought process. - Tomas Rees

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