Prayer is shown to be a clinically ineffective intervention in these large-scale randomized controlled trials. What is a reasonable explanation for these outcomes?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567
http://www.templeton.org/pdfs/press_rel ... 07STEP.pdf
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lance ... 3/fulltext
Clinical Efficacy of Intercessory Prayer
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Clinical Efficacy of Intercessory Prayer
Post #1"Vanity of vanities! All is vanity." - Ecclesiastes 1:2
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Re: Clinical Efficacy of Intercessory Prayer
Post #2That prayer doesn't work, that there isn't a sadistic skydaddy creating diseases and curing those who beg him to at a higher rate than those who don't, that the whole thing is a fairy tale, that by some mysterious coincidence the universe seems to operate exactly as though there was no manifest deity of any kind.Nec Spe Nec Metu wrote: Prayer is shown to be a clinically ineffective intervention in these large-scale randomized controlled trials. What is a reasonable explanation for these outcomes?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567
http://www.templeton.org/pdfs/press_rel ... 07STEP.pdf
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lance ... 3/fulltext
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Re: Clinical Efficacy of Intercessory Prayer
Post #3Biblical reasons could be:Nec Spe Nec Metu wrote: Prayer is shown to be a clinically ineffective intervention in these large-scale randomized controlled trials. What is a reasonable explanation for these outcomes?
1. Person has not believed.
All things, whatever you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.
Matt. 21:22
2. You ask, and don't receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it for your pleasures. James 4:3
3. And thirdly it is possible that the answer is not what person expected and therefore he doesn’t see it. This world is not to meant to last forever. And in Biblical point of view this is only like learning place to get knowledge of good and evil. If person wants to live forever healthy, it means he must go to God’s kingdom. And for that person must born anew.
"Most assuredly, I tell you, unless one is born anew, he can't see the Kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he can't enter into the Kingdom of God! That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Don't marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born anew.'
John 3:3-7
"Therefore don't be anxious, saying, 'What will we eat?', 'What will we drink?' or, 'With what will we be clothed?' For the Gentiles seek after all these things, for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. But seek first God's Kingdom, and his righteousness; and all these things will be given to you as well.
Matthew 6:31-33
Post #4
Atheists love to put God to the test, but it is absurd to expect prayers alone to have any effect.
The reason is that the prayers were not accompanied by the appropriate sacrifice. Words are not enough, because god has said (Ex 23:15) "... none shall appear before me empty handed".
If we assume that the sacrifice for the cure of a leper is suitable for all medical circumstances, the appropriate sacrifice would be two male lambs, a one-year old female lamb, three-tenths of an ephah of fine flour and one log of oil. (lev 14:10)
I am sure that were the appropriate sacrifices were made the beneficial effect of prayer would be obvious even the most hardened unbeliever.
The reason is that the prayers were not accompanied by the appropriate sacrifice. Words are not enough, because god has said (Ex 23:15) "... none shall appear before me empty handed".
If we assume that the sacrifice for the cure of a leper is suitable for all medical circumstances, the appropriate sacrifice would be two male lambs, a one-year old female lamb, three-tenths of an ephah of fine flour and one log of oil. (lev 14:10)
I am sure that were the appropriate sacrifices were made the beneficial effect of prayer would be obvious even the most hardened unbeliever.
Post #5
Personally, as a Christian I would be more surprised to find that a clinical study showed that prayer is effective. A clinical study of that nature might work if God were the force from Star Wars or a law of physics. He is not.
Imagine walking up to someone and saying, “I want you to do whatever I want whenever I ask. To test if you will do this I want you to answer ‘yes’ to every question I ask you no matter what the question is.�
That is essentially how a clinical study of prayer is treating God. Very few humans would accept such treatment. How much more should the almighty Creator of heaven and earth refuse to be treated like a lab rat?
Imagine walking up to someone and saying, “I want you to do whatever I want whenever I ask. To test if you will do this I want you to answer ‘yes’ to every question I ask you no matter what the question is.�
That is essentially how a clinical study of prayer is treating God. Very few humans would accept such treatment. How much more should the almighty Creator of heaven and earth refuse to be treated like a lab rat?
Understand that you might believe. Believe that you might understand. –Augustine of Hippo
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Post #6
So, we cannot manipulate God into healing anyone. Fine. I understand the argument. But isn't that exactly what prayer is, asking God to do something he wouldn't have done if you hadn't prayed?bjs wrote: Personally, as a Christian I would be more surprised to find that a clinical study showed that prayer is effective. A clinical study of that nature might work if God were the force from Star Wars or a law of physics. He is not.
Imagine walking up to someone and saying, “I want you to do whatever I want whenever I ask. To test if you will do this I want you to answer ‘yes’ to every question I ask you no matter what the question is.�
That is essentially how a clinical study of prayer is treating God. Very few humans would accept such treatment. How much more should the almighty Creator of heaven and earth refuse to be treated like a lab rat?
Post #7
.
Yes. It is a petition to God, not a request for empirical evidence.Danmark wrote: But isn't that exactly what prayer is, asking God to do something he wouldn't have done if you hadn't prayed?
- 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
"I believe in no religion. There is absolutely no proof for any of them, and from a philosophical standpoint Christianity is not even the best. All religions, that is, all mythologies to give them their proper name, are merely man’s own invention..."
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Post #8
If God rewards prayer, it seems that an expectation of empirical evidence for this is justified. There would also be a reasonable expectation of evidence which suggests that worship of one god over another demonstrates significant increases in the likelihood of answered prayers. However, peer-reviewed scientific articles investigating the efficacy of prayer on improving recovery from surgery and disease suggest otherwise.olavisjo wrote: .Yes. It is a petition to God, not a request for empirical evidence.Danmark wrote: But isn't that exactly what prayer is, asking God to do something he wouldn't have done if you hadn't prayed?Matthew 6:6
- 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
You could, of course, claim that when empirical data on the efficacy of prayer is collected, God won't likely respond as he does not appreciate being 'tested.' It's in the Bible. Of course, it's also a convenient caveat which repudiates empirical data. Consider, as these studies suggest, the possibility that prayer is no more effective than any other placebo.
"Vanity of vanities! All is vanity." - Ecclesiastes 1:2
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Post #9
But prayer IS seen as a request for empirical evidence.olavisjo wrote: .Yes. It is a petition to God, not a request for empirical evidence.Danmark wrote: But isn't that exactly what prayer is, asking God to do something he wouldn't have done if you hadn't prayed?Matthew 6:6
- 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
Elijah proposed a test of the powers of Baal and Yahweh:
" Let two bulls be given to us, and let them choose one bull for themselves and cut it in pieces and lay it on the wood, but put no fire to it. And I will prepare the other bull and lay it on the wood and put no fire to it. And you call upon the name of your god, and I will call upon the name of the Lord, and the God who answers by fire, he is God.�
1 Kings 18:23-24
Maybe 'god' answers prayers only when his magician, er... prophet has had time to prepare the trick ahead of time.
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Post #10
Aha! It's them little details, y'see. That's where folks slip up every time.keithprosser3 wrote: Atheists love to put God to the test, but it is absurd to expect prayers alone to have any effect.
The reason is that the prayers were not accompanied by the appropriate sacrifice. Words are not enough, because god has said (Ex 23:15) "... none shall appear before me empty handed".
If we assume that the sacrifice for the cure of a leper is suitable for all medical circumstances, the appropriate sacrifice would be two male lambs, a one-year old female lamb, three-tenths of an ephah of fine flour and one log of oil. (lev 14:10)
I am sure that were the appropriate sacrifices were made the beneficial effect of prayer would be obvious even the most hardened unbeliever.