Let's Discuss the Concept of Prayer

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czyz
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Let's Discuss the Concept of Prayer

Post #1

Post by czyz »

Each day people pray for a variety of things such as the health of a loved one or themselves, a new job, help with a problem, etc. I've done so myself in the past, and I think the reason was because I had a lot of anxiety and had no where to turn. It was essentially begging God to bend reality to my desires and it was based in fear.

But does it really work? One hears prayer requests all the time such as "pray for the victims of the house fire" but I wonder why I am praying to God to help victims of something god could have prevented in the first place. My question to god is that if you truly intervene in our inconsequential lives, why did you heap misery on people? Let's face it too, when people pray it's usually about a 50-50 chance.

I've read that written on a wall in the Nazi concentration camp of Mauthuasen-Gusen were the words, "If there is a God, he will have to beg for my forgiveness."

I don't criticize people who pray because they are fearful. If it provides comfort for them then who am I to state otherwise? I just wonder how efficacious prayer actually is as we cannot prove that it actually worked.

Thoughts?
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Science adjusts its view based on what is observed but faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved.

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Re: Let's Discuss the Concept of Prayer

Post #2

Post by Elijah John »

[Replying to post 1 by czyz]

What you are describing is only one form of prayer. Petition. Asking God for things. Even good things. When petitionary prayer is for someone else, they are intercessionary prayers.

These are good forms of prayer, but they are not magic. It is true, that sometimes the answer is "no" or "not now".

But there are far more important types of prayer, and reasons to pray. Gratitude for the good that is in ones life. At the very least, it helps one to keep a positive focus.

God will probably not change the weather for anyone, but He is far more likely to provide shelter in the storm. Often He uses human agents to help.

Another more important form of prayer is repentance, which keeps us believers on track of the straight and narrow "path of righteousness, for His name's sake".

And last but certainly not least is the prayer of praise. Not that God is egomaniacal and needs it as a human would, but that kind of prayer, (like the others) is for our benefit. It helps us to remember how to keep our place, a reminder we are not the center of the universe and there is something bigger, and better than ourselves out there.P
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Re: Let's Discuss the Concept of Prayer

Post #3

Post by steps »

czyz wrote: Each day people pray for a variety of things such as the health of a loved one or themselves, a new job, help with a problem, etc. I've done so myself in the past, and I think the reason was because I had a lot of anxiety and had no where to turn. It was essentially begging God to bend reality to my desires and it was based in fear.

But does it really work? One hears prayer requests all the time such as "pray for the victims of the house fire" but I wonder why I am praying to God to help victims of something god could have prevented in the first place. My question to god is that if you truly intervene in our inconsequential lives, why did you heap misery on people? Let's face it too, when people pray it's usually about a 50-50 chance.

I've read that written on a wall in the Nazi concentration camp of Mauthuasen-Gusen were the words, "If there is a God, he will have to beg for my forgiveness."

I don't criticize people who pray because they are fearful. If it provides comfort for them then who am I to state otherwise? I just wonder how efficacious prayer actually is as we cannot prove that it actually worked.

Thoughts?
Faith consists of affirmation by the tongue and acceptance by the heart. and actions by the body . one of the uncountable deeds is prayer . so when someone prays : he moves from "affirmation and acceptance to the actions " .also Prayer is one of the rights of God on people , he told us to worship him and taught us the ways of worshipping him such as [ prayers , fast , or performing Hajj ]

What are the advantages of prayers ?

Performing prayer correctly restrains from shameful and unjust deeds .
Opens the chest [self-confidence, contentment ] .
It will give the person the satisfaction during good times or hard times . most Muslims are using one expression : "Truly! To Allah we belong and truly, to Him we shall return." During hard times , they do not need any wine or any depressant to forget .

Allah will answer the prayers ,,, but we do not know how ?

All glory be to Allah, we do not know his absolute wisdom . so my advice is to read the verses : 60 – 82 . at Chapter 18 . Al-kahf

http://noblequran.com/translation/index.html

Prophet peace be upon him said : " the case of a man who having journeyed far , is disheveled and dusty , and who spreads out his hands to the sky saying : O Lord , O lord ! while his food is haram (unlawful ) , his drink is unlawful , his clothing is unlawful , and he has been nourished with unlawful , so how can [ his supplication ] be answered ? "
----------------------------------------
why is the misery on people ?

Because they ignored the path of Allah , and chosen wrong paths

[125. Those whom Allah (in His plan) willeth to guide,- He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying,- He maketh their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies: thus doth Allah (heap) the penalty on those who refuse to believe. ]

[124. "But whosoever turns away from My Message, verily for him is a life narrowed down, and We shall raise him up blind on the Day of Judgment."]

The path for the prophets peace be upon them during their mission was not easy : the people mocked them , tortured them , stoned them , expelled them , punished them , and some of the prophets have been killed during their mission . But most of the time the smile never departed their faces .

It is matter that Allah answers our prayers , but the most important thing is Allah with you not against you .

54. So leave them in their error for a time.55. Do they think that We enlarge them in wealth and children,56. We hasten unto them with good things (in this worldly life so that they will have no share of good things in the Hereafter)? Nay, but they perceive not.

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Re: Let's Discuss the Concept of Prayer

Post #4

Post by 1213 »

czyz wrote: Each day people pray for a variety of things such as the health of a loved one or themselves, a new job, help with a problem, etc. I've done so myself in the past, and I think the reason was because I had a lot of anxiety and had no where to turn. It was essentially begging God to bend reality to my desires and it was based in fear.
I think it can be one reason for the prayers “not to work�, if persons wants reality to bend to human desires. After all, according to the Bible Jesus taught to pray like this:

…Let your will be done, as in heaven, so on earth…
Matt. 6:10

And Jesus also said:

Therefore don't be anxious, saying, 'What will we eat?', 'What will we drink?' or, 'With what will we be clothed?' For the Gentiles seek after all these things, for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. But seek first God's Kingdom, and his righteousness; and all these things will be given to you as well.
Matthew 6:31-33

One reason why people probably don’t get all that they want is this:

You ask, and don't receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it for your pleasures.
James 4:3

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Re: Let's Discuss the Concept of Prayer

Post #5

Post by Divine Insight »

1213 wrote: You ask, and don't receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it for your pleasures.
James 4:3
Obviously James had no clue that people like Mother Teresa would come along.

Where is my faith? Even deep down ... there is nothing but emptiness and darkness ... If there be God—please forgive me. When I try to raise my thoughts to Heaven, there is such convicting emptiness that those very thoughts return like sharp knives and hurt my very soul ... How painful is this unknown pain—I have no Faith. Repulsed, empty, no faith, no love, no zeal, ... What do I labor for? If there be no God, there can be no soul. If there be no soul then, Jesus, You also are not true. - Mother Teresa

The claim made by Christianity that prayers don't work for people because they are arrogant or insincere is total hogwash.

And since this actually comes from the Bible in quotes like that from James 4:3 we have direct evidence that that Bible is totally bogus claims and false accusations.

The Biblical scriptures are the only proof we need to see that the Bible is filled with outright lies and false accusations.

Claims being made like James 4:3 are nothing more than examples of religious propaganda being handed out in the name of an empty false cult.

In fact, you can't use the Bible to support the claims being made by the Bible. Instead you need to look at the real world reality. And people like Mother Teresa are a good example of real world reality. I think a person would need to be pretty ignorant to suggest that Mother Teresa was praying for selfish reasons or due to wrong motivations.

So clearly the Bible is a lie. It spreads lies about people that aren't even remotely true.

And Jesus himself was clearly a liar if he actually said the following:

John.14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

If Jesus actually said these words, then he was a liar.

No one gave Jesus a better opportunity to glorify the Father in the Son than Mother Teresa. Yet there was nothing. No answers to her prayers at all.

Either Jesus was a liar, or the whole Bible is nothing but fictional gobbledegook.

I get quite sick of these apologetic excuses that try to pin the the failings of the Biblical promises of Jesus onto non-believers, or insincere believers.

That is actually an extreme insult to people. It's an insult to Mother Teresa.

If there is anyone to blame for these empty lies it can only be Jesus. And rather than believing that some demigod was a liar, why don't we all just realize that the whole religion is most likely nothing more than a scam. Either an intentional scam, made up of intentional lies, or a superstitious scam, made up of false superstitious beliefs.

The problem with Christianity is that, if it were true, then Jesus himself would need to be the biggest liar who ever lived.

Therefore it has to be false. It's as simple as that.
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Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
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Re: Let's Discuss the Concept of Prayer

Post #6

Post by Elijah John »

[Replying to post 5 by Divine Insight]

The Mother Theresa part, I believe that is called the "dark night of the soul" and illustrates that even the most devoted saints experience doubts at times.

And the John 14.13 quote you used, IF Jesus said that (and that promise did not originate withe John the evangelist) , I think he was once again using hyperbole as seems to be his style.

I certainly understand your frustration though, with apparent broken promises.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Re: Let's Discuss the Concept of Prayer

Post #7

Post by Divine Insight »

Elijah John wrote: I certainly understand your frustration though, with apparent broken promises.
I wouldn't be my frustration. I never asked Jesus for anything anyway.

But clearly Mother Teresa did. And it's also pretty obvious, I think, that her requests were totally unselfish and being asked to help other people who were in really seriously bad situations, even children dying of starvation.

In fact, listen to what Jesus has to say about that:

Matt.6:26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

Well, if people are so much better than the fowls of the air, then why does Jesus stand by and ignore Mother Teresa's prayers when he could be glorying the Father in the Son by simply answering her unselfish well-motivated prayers?

I'm sorry Elijah John, but there is no excuse for this false cult that makes promises that are never kept.

It has nothing to do with me being frustrated. All I'm doing is recognizing the lies being spread by this cult. Mother Teresa was the one who was clearly hurt to the depths of her very soul by these lies.

She would have been better off being an atheist who didn't expect some false demigod to keep these mythological promises. Then at least she wouldn't have felt so betrayed by the lies attributed to Jesus.
[center]Image
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]

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Re: Let's Discuss the Concept of Prayer

Post #8

Post by connermt »

czyz wrote: Each day people pray for a variety of things such as the health of a loved one or themselves, a new job, help with a problem, etc. I've done so myself in the past, and I think the reason was because I had a lot of anxiety and had no where to turn. It was essentially begging God to bend reality to my desires and it was based in fear.

But does it really work? One hears prayer requests all the time such as "pray for the victims of the house fire" but I wonder why I am praying to God to help victims of something god could have prevented in the first place. My question to god is that if you truly intervene in our inconsequential lives, why did you heap misery on people? Let's face it too, when people pray it's usually about a 50-50 chance.

I've read that written on a wall in the Nazi concentration camp of Mauthuasen-Gusen were the words, "If there is a God, he will have to beg for my forgiveness."

I don't criticize people who pray because they are fearful. If it provides comfort for them then who am I to state otherwise? I just wonder how efficacious prayer actually is as we cannot prove that it actually worked.

Thoughts?
There have been studies that show prayer is beneficial (and probably studies to show the opposite I'm sure). If it helps a person, go for it. Though I have yet to see proof that any supernatural deity does anything based on prayer.
The only way to prove praying works is to pray to a real entity, not an invisible one.

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Re: Let's Discuss the Concept of Prayer

Post #9

Post by Joab »

Before I even read this thread I feel obliged to admit that I never actually made a threepointer in a match and absolutely all of them were hail mary's.

But really, if prayer makes you feel better then pray by all means.

The simple fact is that prayer can't hurt, well unless you're praying to the wrong god and that gets up the real god's nose and that god is a judgmental god and will torture you forever for praying to the wrong god.

OK maybe it's not such a good idea.
What the world needs now
Is love sweet love
It's the only thing
That there's just to little of.
No not just for some
But for everyone

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Re: Let's Discuss the Concept of Prayer

Post #10

Post by Elijah John »

[Replying to post 7 by Divine Insight]


Well, for one thing, Jesus (to my way of thinking) isn't God. And Jesus himself teaches us to pray to the Father, not to him. He never asked any of his disciples to pray to him. I never ask Jesus for anything either, he has already given his teaching and example, I would not expect anything more from a prophet.

Now why some prayers seem to go unanswered by the Father is another question, a good one, One that believers have been wrestling with for millenia.

The apparent broken promises I believe were generalities, or hyperbole. When Jesus says that God will feed people, in general I believe he does. But he also uses human agents to accomplish His will. "When I was hungry, you gave me to eat", when I was thirsty, you gave me to drink". The fact that some do go unfed is because of the failure of his disicples to come through as they are commanded.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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