John Adams on Religion and Government

[micatala]

Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.

Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.

We should begin by setting conscience free. When all men of all religions shall enjoy equal liberty, property, and an equal chance for
honors and power we may expect that improvements will be made in the human character and the state of society.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/07/04 ... will-hate/


Given these sentiments, how do you think Adams would have responded to the following assertions:

1) This is a Christian nation.
2) It was founded by God, or that God has a special purpose or destiny for America.
3) The idea of separation of church and state was not intended or contemplated by the founders, or is not inherent in the constitution.

[WinePusher]

Given these sentiments, how do you think Adams would have responded to the following assertions:

1) This is a Christian nation.

It depends. The statement itself is very ambiguious, and anybody is entitled to ask what it means to say that America is a Christian nation. Obviously America is not a Christian nation in the same way Iran is an Islamic nation, or Israel is a Jewish state. The laws of the United States are secular, in the sense that they cannot endorse or prohibit any type of religion. But I think it is reasonable to say that Christianity has played a major role in the development, formation and heritage of America (much more so than any other religion). I guess in this sense you could call America a Christian nation and John Adams probably wouldn't have any problem with this if he were alive today.

2) It was founded by God, or that God has a special purpose or destiny for America.

This is merely a matter of a person's worldview. There is no right or wrong answer. One can believe that America is specially endowed and favored and was founded by God, or one can believe that God had nothing to do with the founding of America. Like I said, either way there is no right or wrong answer.

3) The idea of separation of church and state was not intended or contemplated by the founders, or is not inherent in the constitution.

It clearly was. The two clauses specifically dealing with religion (the establishment and free exercise clause) were penned by the founders so clearly the seperation of church and state was 'intended' and 'contemplated' by them.

[micatala]

Given these sentiments, how do you think Adams would have responded to the following assertions:

1) This is a Christian nation.

It depends. The statement itself is very ambiguious, and anybody is entitled to ask what it means to say that America is a Christian nation. Obviously America is not a Christian nation in the same way Iran is an Islamic nation, or Israel is a Jewish state. The laws of the United States are secular, in the sense that they cannot endorse or prohibit any type of religion. But I think it is reasonable to say that Christianity has played a major role in the development, formation and heritage of America (much more so than any other religion). I guess in this sense you could call America a Christian nation and John Adams probably wouldn't have any problem with this if he were alive today.

I would agree the phrase is ambiguous, and those who make the claim do not always clarify what they mean. Where I have seen the phrase come up is in the context of 'cultural issues' or things like posting the ten commandments in public spaces. Some make the case that since we are a 'Christian nation,' posting the ten commandments should be fine. So is saying the Pledge of Allegiance.

I would agree that our history has been profoundly influenced by Christianity as a religion, and by Christian actors within the historical process, many of whom acted because of or at least in a way consistent with their Christian beliefs. I would expect, as you say, that Adams would have no problem acknowledging that historic reality.

2) It was founded by God, or that God has a special purpose or destiny for America.

This is merely a matter of a person's worldview. There is no right or wrong answer. One can believe that America is specially endowed and favored and was founded by God, or one can believe that God had nothing to do with the founding of America. Like I said, either way there is no right or wrong answer.

I would accept this as a fair statement.

Where I would have an issue is when politicians promote this notion as relevant to public policy. In that past, the notion of 'manifest destiny' and its influence on our policies, especially with respect to Native Americans, would be one example.

Today, we have people promoting particular policies with respect to Israel and the Muslim world based on their notion of our country's role in the divine destiny of Israel in particular and the world as a whole. This seems to me to be dangerous.

3) The idea of separation of church and state was not intended or contemplated by the founders, or is not inherent in the constitution.

It clearly was. The two clauses specifically dealing with religion (the establishment and free exercise clause) were penned by the founders so clearly the seperation of church and state was 'intended' and 'contemplated' by them.

I am largely in agreement. I don't think there is any way you can read the constitution along with the historical background that created that document and the many statements by various founders, including Adams, and think that they were not very leery of religion's influence on public policy, as well as potential abuses by government against disfavored religions. Yes, many of them were Christians, perhaps even conservative Christians. Others had at least a leaning toward deism. Jefferson famously created his own NT, snipping out the 'supernatural bits.' However, I don't see that acknowledging their personal CHristian beliefs, for those that had them, or the predominance of Christianity in America, both then and now, lends support for the notion that Christianity should be favored, or that separation of church and state does not exist, or was never intended.


As you say, we are a nation with a significant Christian tradition within the population, living under secular laws.

[The Me's]

[Replying to post 1 by micatala]

I don't believe that the quotes you supplied are adequate to answer your questions.

John Adams, for example stated that these governments were formed by reason and the senses. Surely he was aware of the Creationist declaration made in the Declaration of Independence, that we went to war over the idea that God existed and created us as equals having inherent, inalienable rights?

That sounds suspiciously religious to me.

Today, it would be stamped "religious zealotry" and "Tea Party-ish" and other whatnot.