John 1:18 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and[a] is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
If Jesus is God, as it is claimed, then at least Pontius Pilate, the Apostles, and the 500, and.... well, anyone who has ever seen Jesus, has seen God.
Yet, the Bible says no one has.
A clear contradiction within the Bible.
Another Bible Contradiction
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Another Bible Contradiction
Post #1Thinking about God's opinions and thinking about your own opinions uses an identical thought process. - Tomas Rees
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Re: Another Bible Contradiction
Post #2One of many. That is why anyone who wants to derive any value from the Good Book needs to use their God given common sense, and hopefully choose the verse or verses which are the more civilized, more moral and more reasonable.Ooberman wrote: John 1:18 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and[a] is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
If Jesus is God, as it is claimed, then at least Pontius Pilate, the Apostles, and the 500, and.... well, anyone who has ever seen Jesus, has seen God.
Yet, the Bible says no one has.
A clear contradiction within the Bible.
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
Re: Another Bible Contradiction
Post #3Ooberman wrote:How about holy scripture and not a perversion?John 1:18 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and[a] is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
John 1:18: No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
"Claimed", huh? How about the truth? Jesus is the Son of God and only the Father is greater. Since the Spirit of God was IN Jesus, seeing Jesus was like seeing God.If Jesus is God, as it is claimed, then at least Pontius Pilate, the Apostles, and the 500, and.... well, anyone who has ever seen Jesus, has seen God.
"Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake." Jn:14:10,11
Re: Another Bible Contradiction
Post #4YahDough wrote:Ooberman wrote:How about holy scripture and not a perversion?John 1:18 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and[a] is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
John 1:18: No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
So you are saying that we can't know what the Bible says because even a basic translation can completely shift the meaning?
This seems to immediately desimate any reliability in the text, especially when relying on Paul's meaning of "pneuma" or "seed husk", etc...
Oh stop."Claimed", huh? How about the truth? Jesus is the Son of God and only the Father is greater. Since the Spirit of God was IN Jesus, seeing Jesus was like seeing God.
So the Bible claims."Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake." Jn:14:10,11
We are here to debate it.
This is not a site for witnessing.
Thinking about God's opinions and thinking about your own opinions uses an identical thought process. - Tomas Rees
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Re: Another Bible Contradiction
Post #5I think Jesus is like lamp of God and God is the light that shines on it. Therefore it can be said, if you have seen Jesus, you have seen God. It does not mean that Jesus himself is the only one true God, because as the Bible tells, Jesus is the temple of God, and lesser than God.Ooberman wrote: John 1:18 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and[a] is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5
You heard how I told you, 'I go away, and I come to you.' If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I said 'I am going to my Father;' for the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28
God is spirit and spirit is not seen same way as physical things.
God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
John 4:24
He who doesn't love doesn't know God, for God is love.
1 John 4:8
And because of that, God can be seen spiritually, but is not seen physically.
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Re: Another Bible Contradiction
Post #6YahDough wrote:Cool. How's this?Ooberman wrote:How about holy scripture and not a perversion?John 1:18 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and[a] is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
Ex 33:11 - "And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend".
So... "No one has seen god at any time - except Moses" would be more accurate? Did John not know his own holy scripture??
"Do Good for Good is Good to do. Spurn Bribe of Heaven and Threat of Hell"
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Re: Another Bible Contradiction
Post #7Strider324 wrote:YahDough wrote:Cool. How's this?Ooberman wrote:How about holy scripture and not a perversion?John 1:18 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and[a] is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
Ex 33:11 - "And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend".
So... "No one has seen god at any time - except Moses" would be more accurate? Did John not know his own holy scripture??
It's so funny. I feel like we could go on forever, pointing out the contradictions, and them hemming and hawing about how it only APPEARS to be a contradiction.
Yep, it sure does APPEAR to be a contradiction! Contradictions tend to appear as contradictions...
But, also, YahDough is pointing out the inherent problem with translations in general. We have no idea if the person who translated it first had it right.
And, the irony, is that YahDough is PROVING there are Christians even today, or recently, willing to SUBVERT and CORRUPT the text for their own purposes.
How does he know his version isn't the original Subverted/corrupted text?
He can't! Noone can!
The originals are lost.
We don't know if no one can see God or not.
Thinking about God's opinions and thinking about your own opinions uses an identical thought process. - Tomas Rees
Re: Another Bible Contradiction
Post #8Strider324 wrote:YahDough wrote:Ooberman wrote:How about holy scripture and not a perversion?John 1:18 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and[a] is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.Cool. How's this?Probably a figurative account, especially in light of the account is based on hieroglyphics and word of mouth accounting before formal writing was done. Never-the-less I think Jesus is the "face" of God. He could be made visible, but the fulness of God could not be seen. Good comment, though.Ex 33:11 - "And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend".
Re: Another Bible Contradiction
Post #9Ooberman wrote:YahDough wrote:Ooberman wrote:How about holy scripture and not a perversion?John 1:18 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and[a] is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
John 1:18: No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
I'm saying you might not know what the Bible is teaching when you use an inferior translation. This is especially true when translations use words that are abstract and/or have multiple meanings. Ever hear of the term "lost in translation"?So you are saying that we can't know what the Bible says because even a basic translation can completely shift the meaning?
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Post #10
Here's the English Standard Version's translation of that verse:
No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known."
The verse says that nobody has ever seen God the Father except Jesus Christ. This is obvious by the fact that it goes on to speak of Jesus being at the Father's side -- the proof that he has seen God the Father.
It goes on to say that Jesus has made God the Father known. How? By being God the Son, the second person of the Triune Godhead who, as God Incarnate, came to earth.
The fact that the verse is talking about no one except Jesus seeing God the Father is supported in the Old Testament. We read in Exodus 33:20 that God declares, “You cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.� This states clearly that God the Father did not allow any human being to look at him for their own good. This also means that Jesus couldn't just have been a man, but had to be God as well or else he would not have been able to look upon God the Father either.
Some people have suggested there is a contradiction between that Ex. 33:20 and Ex. 33:11 which speaks of Moses seeing God face to face. However, the Hebrew phrase translated "face to face" is a figure of speech meaning that Moses and the Lord communed -- something one does in worship and prayer without seeing God. It was never meant to be taken literally and to do so would be wrong.
So we can conclude that there is no contradiction in the verse from the gospel of John or between the verses in Exodus.
No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known."
The verse says that nobody has ever seen God the Father except Jesus Christ. This is obvious by the fact that it goes on to speak of Jesus being at the Father's side -- the proof that he has seen God the Father.
It goes on to say that Jesus has made God the Father known. How? By being God the Son, the second person of the Triune Godhead who, as God Incarnate, came to earth.
The fact that the verse is talking about no one except Jesus seeing God the Father is supported in the Old Testament. We read in Exodus 33:20 that God declares, “You cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.� This states clearly that God the Father did not allow any human being to look at him for their own good. This also means that Jesus couldn't just have been a man, but had to be God as well or else he would not have been able to look upon God the Father either.
Some people have suggested there is a contradiction between that Ex. 33:20 and Ex. 33:11 which speaks of Moses seeing God face to face. However, the Hebrew phrase translated "face to face" is a figure of speech meaning that Moses and the Lord communed -- something one does in worship and prayer without seeing God. It was never meant to be taken literally and to do so would be wrong.
So we can conclude that there is no contradiction in the verse from the gospel of John or between the verses in Exodus.